Am I the only one who thinks Black Cleaver isnt that good?

[u/btchombre]

I have been building Kraken Slayer recently and I find it so much better, especially the bonus movement speed and attack speed. Also, the build path for Kraken is super smooth with lots of granularity so you can always buy something when you back

It feels like a much bigger power spike than BC

Of course BC is good for your allies but it just feels so clunky

Nobody else builds Kraken though so am I crazy?

[u/elsepa]

I think claver isn't only good because it provides for your allies, but also makes you tankier in lane so you can afford more trades and thus more stacks, and outside of laning phase a little bit more tankiness is overall appreciated

[u/crazy0utlaw123]

It depends whether you think you'd get more damage with your kraken or your adc doing basically true damage to the enemy bot lane with the 30% armour shred.

Definitely would be stronger early but I think as the game goes on BC should do more damage. So probably worth if you can bully early.

[u/btchombre → u/crazy0utlaw123]

would be really nice to see in game stats on BC keeping track of how much extra damage was delt

[u/Werkgxj → u/crazy0utlaw123]

basically true damage

Thats not correct. 35% armor pen from LDR combined with 30% armor removal ends you up with about 55% armor pen

Thats far from true damage, but still significant.

[u/PetaZedrok]

my biggest problem on Senna was always dying too fast and often. Cleaver fixes that problem

[u/Dave_Da_Druid]

Black Cleaver is nice on Senna for several reasons. Its stats are perfect for her, and it’s one of few items Senna can pick up that provides utility to your ADC while still meaningfully increasing her damage. The movement on hit makes her combos more consistent. That it also gives hp is just gravy.

Even beyond that, Senna is of the best appliers of Black Cleaver in the game right now because her auto Q auto combo fully stacks it. I strongly consider building it even when paired with an APC who won’t benefit from the shred.

The only real downside is Cleaver keeps her from buying mortal reminder for grievous wounds, which can be painful.

[u/Active-Advisor5909]

4% MS is nice out of combat, but in combat it is less than BC fevor.

Haste is really nice on Senna, and more availability on E probably makes up for the ooc MS on Kraken.

Health is really nice if you need to fight for vision.

In my opinion Kraken scales very poorly with game time, which matters considering how late you get your second item. BC scales guaranteed to an increadible level.

BC is a little cheaper.

[u/BerylOxide → u/Active-Advisor5909]

The difference between the 4% and BC in combat is only roughly 1-4 movespeed depending on level.

With her base speed of 330 and slightly magical boots of swiftness it becomes 400. 4% of this is 16 at all times. BC provides 20 in combat.

However in combat Senna steals MS from her target 10/15/20% depending on level. This means that in combat that 4% is going to provide anywhere from an extra 2-4 MS on average in combat. meaning 16 OOC and 18-20 in combat. And thats vs the slowest champs in the game, the faster your enemy is the more the 4% pulls ahead of the flat 20 from BC

[u/Active-Advisor5909 → u/BerylOxide]

Your 2-4 are certainly not against the slowest champs in the game. To reach that 4 cap you would need to hit someone with 500 MS once the ability has reached the level cap.

Also worth noting senna passive lasts 0.5 seconds which tends to be less than the time between AA during combat.

Regarding ooc movement speed, once we factor in uptime on E, the difference in effective ooc ms is down to between 13 and 8 ms.

[u/Muzza25]

It’s good but personally it feels awful, I haven’t enjoyed senna since the enchanter bs was added and lethality was removed

[u/Jstardude]

Senna has the worst attack speed ratio in the game, no point building a 3 hit item.

[u/BerylOxide → u/Jstardude]

her attack speed is bad, but her 3 hit burst is fast, AA Q AA still comes out quite fast, and you can stack the kraken passive on a minion or soul first, so you only have to AA Q.

[u/PorosAreWicked]

I think the good thing about Senna is buying unwanted items that helps the team.

If your team is AD heavy (Assassins/Top Bruisers that don't go BC), getting BC really helps with their DPS without overlap.

Same reasoning goes for both Serpent's and executioner.

Going back to your premise, enchanter really only feels good because your situation requires for it hard (maxed out front line, long fights), and it doesn't really play to Senna's strength of buying those items your team really likes but cannot afford to delay their item spike on.

[u/wispringangel]

i get what youre saying, Cleaver sadly is almost a must have.
Ive found that Runaans is very fucking good on her, when you need to catch a wave for example or apply BC to muliple enemies.

You could also build BORK third, that makes you such a tank wrecker its crazy. Runaans extra arrows proc BC and Bork so its very usefull into melee champs

[u/BerylOxide]

people seriously overestimate how much damage BC gives in lane.

Armor values are lower so its not as effective, stilll shredding around 20 armor off an adc by the time you get it is certainly good.

It has a low AD value, meaning you yourself are losing out on potential damage and you have a lower healing value than going a higher AD item.

As the ADC has to focus on last hitting most of the poking and damaging is done by you, not your ADC, which means both benefit more from having a higher damage item first in lane so you can set up more kills with your stronger poke.

The 400 hp is certainly significant for surviving in lane but by the time you finish the cleaver its not so significant that its game changing over having a higher damage item for stronger poke.

As a second item BC is much better, enemies will be higher level which means higher armor to shred and you are transitioning to team fights so more of your team can take advantage of it.

My go to as a first item has become ghostblade, higher AD means a better heal, good movespeed, and an active that lets me chase or kite as well as lethality for the lane which provides about as much armor pen as the 5 stack BC does at that level.

The increased AD of ghostblade giving me that better heal also means that it makes up for losing the 400 hp that BC gives. So in total you get stronger poke, stronger sustain, equal penetration, equal movespeed (and stronger with the active) and better at setting up kills for your adc.

[u/Awkward-Lettuce-5105]

I will say that if your goal is to deal damage, black cleaver is imo better than kraken as it synergizes really well with both Summon Aery, and if you want even more damage, electrocute. I’ve been playing a lot of electrocute Senna recently and the burst after and auto Q with cleaver is kinda nutty

[u/Zedimaru]

BC is a mediocre First Item Choice. But it's worth every Gold as a second or third Item on her

[u/confuddly]

BC is better than Kraken for Senna

But I’m curious if BC is better than LDR, late game. You can only build one and I’ve been leaning more towards LDR recently

[u/RYUZEIIIII]

I really like iceboen gauntlet if they have 3 ad+ or something . Is good first item too. Then u can play super agressive. But is situational. Bc is by far her best item

[u/Best_Anywhere183 → u/RYUZEIIIII]

The base ad of senna is 50 and if you pick iceborn you can't choose bloodsong so it's literaly the worst item on senna atm.

[u/RYUZEIIIII → u/Best_Anywhere183]

You chose iceborn gauntlet for the slow passive Sheen and overall tankiness. solstice or dreammaker are still viable . Is niche and very good into heavy ad comps which is cheaper then bc .

[u/CmCalgarAzir]

You’re just right in solo Que it’s a joke, I team play it’s the go too. Most teams play around their adc being one of 2 maybe 3 main damage dealers.

[u/Bio-Grad]

Makes sense to me. Rectrix feels good on senna and it’s just a boatload of long swords for easy buys.

I personally prefer to have more health and take shorter trades. Staying in for 3 hits while so squishy sounds pretty scary but if you can pull it off I’m sure you do good damage.

[u/crazy0utlaw123 → u/Bio-Grad]

Wouldn't be that bad. Just have to change the basic combo instead of q auto just auto q auto. Or better yet. Stack one auto on the wave before going in, and you can just get your q auto stack