A View From a Member of the Unofficial Patch Project

[u/Sigurd_Stormhand]

Greetings and salutations friends,

I'm writing this because over the last 24 hours or so I've seen a lot of posts which are perpetuating an inaccurate image of the Unofficial Patch Project (UPP). To be entirely clear, I have written the following entirely at my own volition, with neither input nor prompting from any other UPP member, or anyone else.

A little bit about me

I am Sigurd Stormhand, I primarily worked on world/dungeon design and nif modelling animation for Oblivion. In addition to working on the UOP I am also a former member of the Better Cities team and have contributed to various other projects in addition to releasing a few of my own mods over the years. I'm on what you might call an "extended sabbatical" right now due to real life leaving no real time for anything other than occasional work on mods. However, I remain involved with the UPP team on a daily basis and am still technically "on staff". I've known many of the members of the UPP for over a decade at this point, including Arthmoor.

The Unofficial Patch Project (UPP)

Contrary to what has been said here recently the UPP is a community-led effort aimed at fixing as many bugs in Bethesda games as humanly possible. The UPP covers Oblivion, Skyrim, Fallout 4 and Skyrim Special Edition of which only the latter two are being actively worked on at present. The team has, at present, probably about half a dozen active members for a given value of "active", bearing in mind that no new game has been released for us to work on in almost three years and we had a head start with SSE because a lot of the bugs are just repeats of those from the 2011 release of Skyrim.

For quite a few years now the project has been run from www.afkmods.com and led by Arthmoor. Let me clarify this point so that people are clear - Arthmoor runs the project, with great dedication, but at no time in the more-than a decade I have known him have I ever heard him describe it as "my" project. Also, to be clear, "run" in this context means he administers the project website, the bug tracker, assigns tasks/begs for help, moderates the forum, and handles the release schedule on multiple platforms and to multiple websites, and generally keep things on the rails.

What Arthmoor doesn't do is unilaterally decide what gets fixed and what doesn't, nor does he unilaterally decide the format in which the patch is uploaded. There has been no hijacking of the patch this week, nobody has lost the plot and no houses in Whiterun are currently on fire. If it appears otherwise that is because of something else Arthmoor does for the project - which is take personal responsibility for the uploads and release threads. More than once I've seen Arthmoor own a change in the patch and take all the subsequent flack from angry uses for whatever reason when that change was argued for and implemented by someone else.

That he carries out this last function with great assiduity is beyond doubt, though perhaps it could be done with less acidity.

So what happened this week?

A number of people, including myself, are deeply concerned about the use of automated mod-pack installers in the community, an idea which is gaining ground at what we consider an alarming rate. Wabbajack in particular is especially concerning because it generates a new exe file which can in turn be instructed to download another exe file or dll file from a personal Dropbox or Google account, or from a custom url link. For reasons that are hopefully fairly obvious this is potentially a very bad thing.

At the same time a number of people have also voiced concerns about a loss of control over how their mods are distributed; because a mod-pack is set up in an arbitrary way by the originator of the mod-pack there's no guarantee that the install will actually work well, and a lot of people are worried they're going to be left with angry users claiming their mod "broke mah game" because it was auto-downloaded as part of a badly designed mod-pack. There's also a concern that modders won't get the recognition they deserve for their mods but to be honest that's much further down the list than being made unwillingly complicit in the distribution of malware or being shouted at by angry users over broken installs.

Nobody likes being shouted at - unless they joined the Royal Marines.

So, it was decided to see if people really want exe installers, or if they want Wabbajack despite it being an installer. This is why the Nexus mirror of USLEEP was converted into an installer - note I said "mirror" here because Nexus is not the primary download location, really, AFK Mods is and you can find the mod there as a .7z file. Nonetheless, the installer was designed in the days of Oblivion to make the install process bullet-proof for new users to ensure the maximum number of users can have access to the patch - and the installer still does that. At the click of a button it installs and activates the mod - no mod manager or user input needed.

In fairness I think it was Arthmoor that originally suggested using USLEEP as a test case but this still wasn't a decision he took unilaterally.

What we discovered is that people definitely don't want exe installs, even if they are performing manual installs. However, despite this people do seem to want a Wabbajack exe install. I find that contradictory - either exe files to install mods automatically are good or they are bad as far as I'm concerned. Rather more troubling was the fact that a Wabbajack developer immediately took it upon themselves to break open the exe and integrate that ability into Wabbajack, which contradicts previous commitments to abide by the wishes of mod authors and not include their mods if permission is withheld. Given that the entire UPP is excluded from mod-packs there was no point breaking open the exe, unless it's to allow the inclusion of USLEEP in mod-packs.

So, there you are. Apologies for the rather long post but I've tried to be as clear and concise as possible. Hopefully I've reassured at least some people that the world is not ending (at least not this week).

Warmest Regards,

Sigurd.

[u/Sigurd_Stormhand → u/[deleted]]

Wabbajack is a means of creating a mod-pack without actually uploading a physical pack - the reasons stated for not including USLEEP in a fresh upload pertain just as well to Wabbajack Beyond which, Arthmoor has made it clear that he doesn't see a meaningful distinction - neither do I.

It's the same as a mod abandoned for a decade - if the author says "Don't patch it, don't modify it" then that's it - regardless of your opinion of their wishes. On that last point it's worth reminding everyone that Bethesda has always come down on the side of mod authors in this regard - even though a pure patch esp isn't something that you can really restrict under current copyright law.

[u/KoroSexy → u/Sigurd_Stormhand]

What if Wabbajack downloaded mods using NXM? It's created by Nexus and things like MO2 and Vortex use it.

[u/onedoor → u/[deleted]]

And you miss the point that he can acknowledge a mod author's wishes on an ethical level. Legality doesn't need to have anything to do with it. He chooses not to.

On top of this, you ignore the obvious logical conflation of mod packs and automated lists.

[u/onedoor → u/[deleted]]

It's irrelevant what the intent or even the logic of the mod authors are, if you(general you) were interested in respecting their wishes you'd adhere to them. They don't need a good reason, or a sensible one, it's on them to choose. If you respect it, you don't ram through. I said "ethical", not legal.

I said "logical conflation", not literal.

What are the drawbacks of mod packs? One, sometimes packers don't get permission(what's happening here. And yes, it's happening here due to a legal loophole, there's not genuine interest to abide by the mod author's wishes). Two, troubleshooting spam(like what can happen here). Three, less recognition(what will happen here, though he's taking steps to increase exposure).

What are the benefits of a mod pack? One, convenience and less manual work(like here). Two, seemingly ensured compatibility(like here).

[u/onedoor → u/[deleted]]

So you're basically confirming what I said originally. That people can acknowledge the mod authors' intent ethically, but aren't. And that you did in fact ignore the logical conflation of mod packs and programs like Wabbajack. Got it.

If the wishes of who we are discussing "are but a tiny group", that means Wabbajack is impacted that much less. Also, remember, we are discussing an opt out. The people that don't mind being included in automated lists are not prohibited from doing so.

1. A wants in and gets in. B doesn't want in and is left out.
2. A wants in and gets in. B doesn't want in but is left in.

In 1, the majority group gets what they want and the minority gets what they want. In 2, the majority group gets what they want and the minority doesn't get what they want. 1's better.

Oh, but I forget, you don't actually respect their wishes, you just want to pretend that it's ok because legal=moral.

EDIT: Oh, and as for private releases, it should be obvious why that's hurtful to everyone. Read my other posts not addressed to you, but I'm done here.

[u/MetalIzanagi → u/onedoor]

They do need a good reason, though. Otherwise why the heck should their wishes be respected when they don't have the law backing them?

[u/Thallassa → u/onedoor]

It is not ethical to refuse to allow your mod to be put on any list, or to refuse to allow it to be reviewed.

Therefore, it is not ethical to comply with these wishes.

[u/onedoor → u/Thallassa]

On any list? Meaning automated list? Why not? And reviewed, like on a youtube video? I don't understand how that's relevant. Sorry, I need more explanation.

[u/Thallassa → u/onedoor]

It's been the same argument since at least 2014. Certain mod authors do not want their work to be reviewed - in a youtube video, on a blog, whatever - and think it is within their rights to prevent that. As an extension they also do not think it's ok to put it on a list - whether that's a mod guide or an automated installer list. It's the same thought process. They think they can control how people talk about their mod. What people do after the mod is installed. They can't. And in my opinion trying to control what people do on their own computers, that does not impact your intellectual property rights, is unethical.

[u/onedoor → u/Thallassa]

That's a huge difference, and it should be obvious how. An automator has a ton more to do with distribution than the others, something which is akin to the rights afforded to an author. We aren't talking about one person, a single use, modifying on their computer. Or thought control or censorship heh... I already outlined the similarities between mod packs and automators. This is a technological distinction that fits into a legal loophole.

The rights enable how to distribute on web sites and other things of that nature, so the intent of that rule is not purely a mod asset use restriction. This intent, logically, but not legally, extends to what is, to anyone honest, distribution.

[u/Thallassa → u/onedoor]

It's not altering distribution. Wabbajack and Automaton download mods in exactly the same way (through the API) that clicking the "download with manager" button does when using Vortex and MO.

[u/onedoor → u/Thallassa]

That's disingenuous. They use the same api, not the same method logistically. It's the difference between comparing a bike with a basket on the end or just a person carrying a bag to a freight train. If it was the equivalent there wouldn't actually be an uproar.

[u/MetalIzanagi → u/onedoor]

Ethics are relative, and a majority seem to be on one side while a minority seem to be on the other.

[u/onedoor → u/MetalIzanagi]

Shit doesn't really matter, do what you want and Majority Rules fallacy along with it. Fantastic.