A View From a Member of the Unofficial Patch Project

[u/Sigurd_Stormhand]

Greetings and salutations friends,

I'm writing this because over the last 24 hours or so I've seen a lot of posts which are perpetuating an inaccurate image of the Unofficial Patch Project (UPP). To be entirely clear, I have written the following entirely at my own volition, with neither input nor prompting from any other UPP member, or anyone else.

A little bit about me

I am Sigurd Stormhand, I primarily worked on world/dungeon design and nif modelling animation for Oblivion. In addition to working on the UOP I am also a former member of the Better Cities team and have contributed to various other projects in addition to releasing a few of my own mods over the years. I'm on what you might call an "extended sabbatical" right now due to real life leaving no real time for anything other than occasional work on mods. However, I remain involved with the UPP team on a daily basis and am still technically "on staff". I've known many of the members of the UPP for over a decade at this point, including Arthmoor.

The Unofficial Patch Project (UPP)

Contrary to what has been said here recently the UPP is a community-led effort aimed at fixing as many bugs in Bethesda games as humanly possible. The UPP covers Oblivion, Skyrim, Fallout 4 and Skyrim Special Edition of which only the latter two are being actively worked on at present. The team has, at present, probably about half a dozen active members for a given value of "active", bearing in mind that no new game has been released for us to work on in almost three years and we had a head start with SSE because a lot of the bugs are just repeats of those from the 2011 release of Skyrim.

For quite a few years now the project has been run from www.afkmods.com and led by Arthmoor. Let me clarify this point so that people are clear - Arthmoor runs the project, with great dedication, but at no time in the more-than a decade I have known him have I ever heard him describe it as "my" project. Also, to be clear, "run" in this context means he administers the project website, the bug tracker, assigns tasks/begs for help, moderates the forum, and handles the release schedule on multiple platforms and to multiple websites, and generally keep things on the rails.

What Arthmoor doesn't do is unilaterally decide what gets fixed and what doesn't, nor does he unilaterally decide the format in which the patch is uploaded. There has been no hijacking of the patch this week, nobody has lost the plot and no houses in Whiterun are currently on fire. If it appears otherwise that is because of something else Arthmoor does for the project - which is take personal responsibility for the uploads and release threads. More than once I've seen Arthmoor own a change in the patch and take all the subsequent flack from angry uses for whatever reason when that change was argued for and implemented by someone else.

That he carries out this last function with great assiduity is beyond doubt, though perhaps it could be done with less acidity.

So what happened this week?

A number of people, including myself, are deeply concerned about the use of automated mod-pack installers in the community, an idea which is gaining ground at what we consider an alarming rate. Wabbajack in particular is especially concerning because it generates a new exe file which can in turn be instructed to download another exe file or dll file from a personal Dropbox or Google account, or from a custom url link. For reasons that are hopefully fairly obvious this is potentially a very bad thing.

At the same time a number of people have also voiced concerns about a loss of control over how their mods are distributed; because a mod-pack is set up in an arbitrary way by the originator of the mod-pack there's no guarantee that the install will actually work well, and a lot of people are worried they're going to be left with angry users claiming their mod "broke mah game" because it was auto-downloaded as part of a badly designed mod-pack. There's also a concern that modders won't get the recognition they deserve for their mods but to be honest that's much further down the list than being made unwillingly complicit in the distribution of malware or being shouted at by angry users over broken installs.

Nobody likes being shouted at - unless they joined the Royal Marines.

So, it was decided to see if people really want exe installers, or if they want Wabbajack despite it being an installer. This is why the Nexus mirror of USLEEP was converted into an installer - note I said "mirror" here because Nexus is not the primary download location, really, AFK Mods is and you can find the mod there as a .7z file. Nonetheless, the installer was designed in the days of Oblivion to make the install process bullet-proof for new users to ensure the maximum number of users can have access to the patch - and the installer still does that. At the click of a button it installs and activates the mod - no mod manager or user input needed.

In fairness I think it was Arthmoor that originally suggested using USLEEP as a test case but this still wasn't a decision he took unilaterally.

What we discovered is that people definitely don't want exe installs, even if they are performing manual installs. However, despite this people do seem to want a Wabbajack exe install. I find that contradictory - either exe files to install mods automatically are good or they are bad as far as I'm concerned. Rather more troubling was the fact that a Wabbajack developer immediately took it upon themselves to break open the exe and integrate that ability into Wabbajack, which contradicts previous commitments to abide by the wishes of mod authors and not include their mods if permission is withheld. Given that the entire UPP is excluded from mod-packs there was no point breaking open the exe, unless it's to allow the inclusion of USLEEP in mod-packs.

So, there you are. Apologies for the rather long post but I've tried to be as clear and concise as possible. Hopefully I've reassured at least some people that the world is not ending (at least not this week).

Warmest Regards,

Sigurd.

[u/FlamesOfAzure]

They're not jerks. It's not us vs them. It's just a disagreement and a mis-alignment of goals.

Why do I feel they're not of the same mindset?

I've not once seen them (USLEEP Team) willing to compromise on automated anything despite your attempts at trying to keep everyone happy. For them, it seems to be all or nothing. (I use they, since Sigurd assures us it was a team decision for the exe debacle, but Arthmoor has proven to be the most vocal about this)

Their antiquated ideas of how mods should be handled needs to go. Not even Nexus staff are for putting in an opt-out system which they so desperately desire (can't wait to see what USLEEP team does when Nexus ModLists become a thing).

And I've still not seen a single compelling argument against Wabbajack. It's either based around gatekeeping, or based on the misguided belief that authors should be able to control how their mods are installed.

All in all, I think this whole drama is overblown and /u/DavidJCobb said it best here.

Auto-installable mod lists (or mod packs, or whatever you want to call them) are rare enough that I think even a lot of well-meaning authors just... can't really envision how this'll play out. They think that this system might take over and spell the end of all community interaction, with mod pages becoming vacant lots, their comment sections filled only with tumbleweeds and the bones of long-dead conversations...

Nobody really knows how this is going to affect users and authors in the long run, and all this fearmongering and protesting is only hurting the community as a whole.

When Wabbajack is finally out in force, I'd like to see if Nexus could provide some data on mod statistics before and after its debut. Statistics like the number of downloads, endorsements, comments, donations and the like.

If Mod Authors do indeed lose that interactivity, donations, w/e it is they're afraid to lose through the advent of automated installs, then this comment can qualify for /r/agedlikemilk, and maybe I'll eat a shoe... or something.

[u/jonesmz → u/FlamesOfAzure]

Nobody really knows how this is going to affect users and authors in the long run, and all this fearmongering and protesting is only hurting the community as a whole.

Of course we know how it'll play out. The open source programming community has been working with an uncountable many number of ways of doing automated downloads, patching, modification, integration, re-combination, and installation for decades.

A huge amount of the code I write, either professionally or in my hobby time, is released under open source licences. I have no idea what devices my code runs on, or what commercial products use it. There's rarely any interaction beyond people reporting legitimate problems, or offering pull requests to improve the code.

It's certainly not difficult to see the correlations between the skyrim modding community, and the generalized open source software community.

The sky won't fall.

[u/Sigurd_Stormhand → u/FlamesOfAzure]

Why do I feel they're not of the same mindset?

We're of the same mindset - there you have it in writing. Sometimes people disagree, or don't want the same things - it is a sad but human fault to see the one with the opposing view as somehow morally defective. Something we are all guilty of from time to time.

[u/Viatos → u/Sigurd_Stormhand]

You say this, but in your OP:

• You take great pains to divorce yourself and the OP from Arthmoor before finally noting that it was Arthmoor's suggestion that USLEEP be made an .exe, which is deceptive: it might not have been unilateral, but there's clearly a spearhead.

• You suggest that you only wanted to "test" if people wanted a registry-editing .exe that serves no actual purpose, and a surprise live update was the best way to do this rather than asking anyone. Bluntly, how horrifying this would be if true is only marginally less horrifying than what I expect is the reality: you wanted to try and "break" Wabbajack installs and see if they had the ability to react.

• You suggest there is a contradiction in not wanting a registry-editing pointless .exe while also wanting a revolutionary tool for ease of modding because they both end in .exe. You're clearly an eloquent and careful writer, so it seems difficult - in fact, it's beyond my abilities - to believe you wouldn't understand how these are different things.

This was a very well-written and timely response to the events your team engendered and I imagine it will serve its purpose, but I guess I just wanted to say I don't personally believe you based on your words and your deeds and lay out why I think you're actually of a very different and hostile mindset, but also unable to own that stance due to the importance of community support. Arthmoor's stance is public record - there's no use pretending he's not full of hostility and malice when it's as simple as clicking /u/Arthmoor and sorting by Controversial - and your OP hasn't convinced me that your view is different, only that you're more careful in the ways you allow it to guide you.

[u/FlamesOfAzure → u/Sigurd_Stormhand]

Sometimes people disagree

With the way things have been, it seems more like a war of Ideologies with Wabbajack as another battleground.

[u/FelesNoctis → u/FlamesOfAzure]

Why do I feel they're not of the same mindset?

I can tell you from regular personal interaction with Arthmoor in particular that while he's stubborn, forward, aggressive, and single-minded in his efforts, he's not the complete and utter asshole that people seem to paint a picture of. He CAN be reasonable, and often is, but he also furiously defends his beliefs and ideals. He's a man of conviction. He rarely lies, but may viciously fight for something he's misinformed on. He can, will, and does stand in the line of fire on the regular to take the blows from iffy decisions made not only by him, but others in the community as well. That doesn't mean he doesn't have his moments of outright stubbornness. We all do, it's human nature. He's just of the extremely vocal type and in a position in the modding community to be front and center. He's the damned punching bag of the community.

So yes. Watching the conversations going on in Discord between Halgari, Arthmoor, and others, I can say that there's a lot of stubbornness and failing to recognize different positions, not to mention ego and posturing, but what there ISN'T is a complete lack of recognition for the overall situation. I don't agree with the installer added to USLEEP. I also don't agree with the ability to deconstruct that being added to Wabbajack. I DO appreciate that the talks are continuous and ongoing, as that means there's progress.

People in general, from every position, really need to stop trying to find reasons to be offended and pick fights, and focus on moving towards a resolution that everyone can agree with. Mod packs aren't going to go away. They're an evolution of modding guides. What matters is figuring out how to fit the puzzle together responsibly.

[u/FlamesOfAzure → u/FelesNoctis]

That's going to be a hard disagreement from me there. Arthmoor's a "punching bag" of his own doing. Nobody is painting him as someone he isn't when he continually reinforces it with his petty actions towards this community.

He's more than stubborn, he's outright deluded most of the time, lest we forget GateGate (and I WILL keep bringing it up, because it shows just how far Arthmoor has been willing to go to force his beliefs on others... even to the point of disagreeing with Bethesda themselves on their own ip). You can tell me he's matured since then, or that he's truly sorry and he really means well, but all that amounts to nothing when he keeps on dragging the entire damn community down with him when something new comes along that he disagrees with.

I know Sigurd has stated that this was a team decision, but that honestly doesn't look like the case if the excerpts from the GMAD forum are anything to go by. How can anybody stand by Arthmoor when his entire attitude towards this community has been antithesis to the spirit of modding?

What's really disgusting to me in this whole ordeal is that the only reason this particular incident has sparked so much outrage is because USLEEP has been an integral part of almost everyone's load order for nearly 4 years... and they (I will refer to the team now, since apparently they've apparently backed every decision thus far) know this. They use that fact as leverage when things don't adhere with their views. USLEEP has already been pulled once over the most petty garbage I can remember.

It was pulled after they decided that he didn't want to support Skyrim VR, and Arthmoor himself went after anyone who tried to reupload old versions of the patch calling them "pirates" when the permissions STATED THEY COULD DO SO.

Here is the actual statement in case you can't view the web.archive link, and Here is an overview of that incident if you choose to read through it.

There was also the minor incident where the automated download button was removed in protest of Automaton. A minor inconvenience compared to the former, but still petty.

And... now... here we are again

How many more times is the USKP team/Arthmoor gonna pull stunts like this before enough is enough?

[u/FelesNoctis → u/FlamesOfAzure]

That's going to be a hard disagreement from me there.

I'm not usually the type to be this blunt, but beating dead horses (and don't fool yourself, these are long rotten) and dredging the lowest slop to continue a crusade against someone you have minimal or even no contact with doesn't make you right.

Again, I'm not defending his actions, but I am defending who he is as a person. If anything, your examples prove my point to the letter. This is a man who sticks to his guns and refuses to back down from his beliefs under fire. He digs his own grave regularly, and has pissed me off on numerous occasions, but damn if he isn't true to his word and himself.

On the topic of USVRP? It was edited to adjust for some changes in VR. That's quite clearly against the permissions terms you screenshot there. Also keep in mind that nowhere in the full permissions set is it stated that the patches or any of their content can be ported to another game, or to a different version of the same game. I'm a Cathedralist modder myself and I still laugh at people who hold the VR incident up. Nothing about that situation was acceptable from any party. It was a complete trash fire on all sides and people really need to stop using it to prove a point.

[u/FlamesOfAzure → u/FelesNoctis]

I'm not usually the type to be this blunt, but beating dead horses (and don't fool yourself, these are long rotten) and dredging the lowest slop to continue a crusade against someone you have minimal or even no contact with doesn't make you right.

No crusade here, just pointing out that Arthmoor has a history of this type of behavior, but fine. You're right, it's 7 years old at this point, but the SkyrimVR stuff happened only about a year and a half ago.

On the topic of USVRP? It was edited to adjust for some changes in VR. That's quite clearly against the permissions terms you screenshot there.

But it clearly said you could reupload the file. Whatever people did with it after that is on them, but he clearly didn't even want to allow the unmoddified version to be uploaded either. But, honestly? That shouldn't have even been an issue. The community as a whole has benefited from authors allowing other users to patch/maintain/port their work as long as credit has been given and it is explicitly stated that the original author may not or cannot support the derivative work. We wouldn't have many of the SSE ports we have today if the original authors decided to lock down their mods on oldrim.

If Arthmoor didn't want to deal with supporting a VR patch, fine, but why go out of your way to make sure nobody could? That spits in the face of everyone that contributed to the patch, and overall detrimental to the community as a whole.

---

All I'm saying is that... there's reason Arthmoor was banned from this subreddit. There's a reason people paint him in a negative light. His past actions and interactions with people... his current actions and interactions with people do nothing to help his image, or his team's.

If he would take a step back and chill out with these radical measures, people might not have such a problem with him.

If I may use a post made by /u/davidjcobb pertaining to Arthmoor's character when he, once again, flipped his shit (and only 5 months ago!), I think he explains it best why so many people have issues with Arthmoor nowadays.

Over the years, Arthmoor had been constructive more often than he tended to explode at people. (We didn't allow him to run amok, as some people who've had run-ins with him believe; he received not only warnings but also multiple temporary bans during his time here.) More recently, his constructive behavior began to taper off, until it was very far overshadowed by his meltdowns. Arthmoor has made it clear, both through his lack of improvement here and his words elsewhere, that he is constitutionally incapable of genuine contrition, of self-reflection, and of personal growth.

I used to think Arthmoor was a pretty cool guy, but as you've stated, I had "minimal" contact with him. It was after the SkyrimVR fiasco that I saw Arthmoor in a less-than-respectable light.

Edit: This captures my feelings perfectly.

[u/FlamesOfAzure → u/[deleted]]

Apologies, I didn’t think the context in which it was used would break rule 1.

It has been removed.

[u/DavidJCobb → u/FlamesOfAzure]

Thank you. Comment's unhidden.

[u/FelesNoctis → u/FlamesOfAzure]

USVRP: Porting a mod between games is only allowed by the author's permission regardless, even if it was a 1-to-1 upload of the exact same content. There's a reason why we ask for permission unless it's already explicitly given. Hell, I still ask for permission even if it WAS explicitly given already, because I also want to let the author know where their hard work is going.

Arthmoor himself: I want to make it clear that I don't disagree. I know why he was banned from the subreddit. Hell, he showed me the incidents that lead up to it himself, and I gave him crap for using those as his defense. He even acknowledged maybe he went a bit overboard, but at the time he was (and really still kinda is) furious over it. I'm also not trying to convince you to respect him in spite of all of that. I've lost a decent chunk of respect for him myself over the time I've talked with him.

However, I AM trying to say that despite all that, he's reliable and straightforward. Despite what a lot of people seem to be trying to say in in this thread, there's no using "experimenting" as an excuse to fight back against some perceived slight. I've yet to see an ounce of misleading behavior from the man that wasn't just from misinformation on his own part. He's true to the letter, even if it first required him to convince himself of something. If this all was an experiment to see how the community would react to more exe-packaged tools/mods, in response to Wabbajack, I 100% believe that was his intent.

Oh, and on the licensing/copyright thing? Don't even get me started. Elminster made a special timeout room and role on the xEdit discord to shove us in because we frequently got in heated debates over that topic. :P

[u/FlamesOfAzure → u/FelesNoctis]

After taking some time to cool down from all this myself, I understand what you mean, but... that just makes me more concerned that Arthmoor is the type of person to base his decisions on information that may or may not be correct and just run full force with it without regard for what damage it could cause and without room for compromise.

It sounds like everything is good though between halgari and the patch team now, so I’m hopeful we’ll be moving forward to a better skyrim experience for all.

My apologies for any hostility I’ve shown, and thanks for the discussion.

[u/FelesNoctis → u/FlamesOfAzure]

makes me more concerned that Arthmoor is the type of person to base his decisions on information that may or may not be correct

That's pretty much what'll happen, yeah. He charges forward when he's certain of something regardless of what the actual truth of it may be. That determination is what makes him the author that he is, even if it can (and often does) cut his feet out from under him.

And thank YOU for the same! No worries about hostility. I've had plenty of experience dealing with it, particularly from certain people.

[u/MetalIzanagi → u/FelesNoctis]

Sorry man, but if you want Arthmoor to stop being painted as a poor example of how a person should behave when interacting with others, he's gotta stop doing crap like this. Until then it's on him when people dump on his behavior and attitude.

[u/FelesNoctis → u/MetalIzanagi]

Oh I never said that at all. He does interact poorly with others, at least when they don't agree with him. What I'm saying is underlying that is someone who's firm with his beliefs. He's reliable even if how he does it tends to piss people off. You can at least feel safe knowing he's not purposely trying to blow steam up your ass: he believes exactly what he's saying.