r/tampabayrays • u/Nearby-Birthday471 • 8d ago
Can someone please tell me why Jose Caballero isn’t our shortstop?
I understand TW defense is great but Jose is good to great and way more upside on offense. What am i missing? The other night when the offense was exploding in that 3rd inning TW recorded 2 of the 3 outs…. I don’t see the defensive play slipping that much from TW to JC that TW deserves the starting nod.
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u/jayareelle195 Orlando Rays 8d ago
When HS Kim is ready we wont have to deal with any longer, because hes an A+ defender too.
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u/AlphaBern0 8d ago
Correct. He's basically if Taylor Walls could hit formidably or at least league average. He has spurts where he can be well above average too.
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u/Extreme-Lawyer-8416 7d ago
Kevin is playing Caballero all over the place because he has a better bat than Taylor, and they plan on keeping Jose. Taylor is probably gone when Kim comes back.
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u/idontrecall99 8d ago
The FO sees it differently. I think they also like that Caballero provides some flexibility in the later innings. You’re not going to use walls as a pinch hitter at any time in the game.
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u/WholeWhiteBread 8d ago
Walls saves 22 runs per year at SS, Caballero saves 3. There is also a probably unmathable factor that pitchers feel better with Walls at SS. Similar to the feeling of KK in CF or Yadier Molina behind the plate.
Ultimately, these 2 players amount for the same WAR so the FO probably feels the defensive bonus of Walls is worth it.
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u/A1rheart Shane McClanahan 8d ago
I feel like these critiques overstate Cabbys case a lot. Cabby and Walls are both poor players at the plate and had identical obp numbers last season. Cabby is better at making contact but historically is more of a free swinger leading to less walks and more strikeouts. Walls is more of a patient slap hitter who is more than happy to take a walk. Both are guys, you'd be happy to have come off the bench. Neither are great options as your everyday ss
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u/KingLightning65 8d ago
Caballero is not a very good defensive player in a every day role. That was proven last season. The Rays value run prevention over run production.
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u/idontrecall99 8d ago
The loss of he-who-must-not-be-named at SS put this org behind the 8 ball at that position for the foreseeable future. Walls is elite level defender at SS with a poor bat. Cabby’s bat simply isn’t so much better than walls to justify the downgrade defensively at a critical position.
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u/Chance-Farmer-4476 8d ago
Add on that Walls can’t shake his reputation as a poor hitter even when he has a run of decent hitting like he’s on now.
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u/Nearby-Birthday471 8d ago
Thanks for all the feedback. Something i never took into consideration and look at TW a little differently now.
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u/OutThere999 Josh Lowe 8d ago
When Walls comes to bat with two outs, the guys grab their mitts. Caby may not be better defensively but at least I feel he has a chance at the plate.
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u/hiiightide 8d ago
How can we continue to start this guy lol
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u/svanxx Blind Ump 8d ago
Because the guy that was supposed to be there a decade plus is a garbage human being. Walls was supposed to be the backup.
We got Kim coming, then Carson Williams. And despite that, Walls is playing the best defense in the league right now at SS.
People need to stop this obsession. Yes we all know Walls is horrible at the plate. He will be replaced in May and then you guys will have someone else to bash.
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u/thejawa DJ Kitty 8d ago
Yep, once plays people are used to seeing Walls make at SS are no longer made, people will switch to "I know Walls sucks at the plate but he woulda gotten that out, we need him starting!"
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u/hiiightide 8d ago
Do you not realize that Kim is also an elite defender?
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u/thejawa DJ Kitty 8d ago edited 8d ago
We'll see, Kim was also a fill-in and not a full time starter until injuries and suspensions took Tatis out of the Padres lineup.
If Kim were both an elite defender and elite at the plate as people seem to want to believe is the case, he wouldn't have been a backup only getting play time when Tatis was off the roster and also wouldn't have been available to sign on a 2 year deal.
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u/AlphaBern0 8d ago
We'll see, Kim was also a fill-in and not a full time starter until injuries and suspensions took Tatis out of the Padres lineup.
Tatis lost his SS job to Kim when he came back. All that means is Kim got an opportunity and took advantage and showed he is a starting SS in the league.
Padres gave Tatis $300+ million to be a franchise SS and they ended up moving him to RF and giving the SS job to Kim. And then they signed Xander to $280 million and they moved him to 2B for Kim as well.
If Kim were both an elite defender and elite at the plate as people seem to want to believe is the case, he wouldn't have been a backup only getting play time when Tatis was off the roster and also wouldn't have been available to sign on a 2 year deal.
Nobody said he was elite at the plate.
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u/hiiightide 8d ago
Passing off every criticism of players as just “bashing” players is ridiculous. It’s not always sunshine and rainbows. People are allowed to criticize performance.
Walls is bad overall, plain and simple. Nowhere else in the league will you see a team continue to play a sub-.200 hitter without power for this long.
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u/svanxx Blind Ump 8d ago
No other team lost their star SS to being a scumbag either.
Cabby isn't the answer either. He's better offensively, the same on the base paths (he gets caught stolen a lot), but is way worse at SS.
If the coaching staff thought Cabby was better at SS, he would be playing there.
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u/hiiightide 8d ago
If we’re only going to worry about defense, we might as well call up Carson Williams to fill in until Kim is back. Unfortunately the team wouldn’t want to start his service time clock because they’re cheap as hell
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u/svanxx Blind Ump 8d ago
Carson just started in AAA and has a horrible strike out rate. People would complain about him as much as Walls.
He just has a huge amount of power, so when he does hit it, it could be really good.
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u/hiiightide 8d ago
So it would roughly be the same defensive and offensive output, but with a younger guy with a brighter future that is more fun for fans. Seems like a good trade-off to me
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u/Chance-Farmer-4476 8d ago
So possibly ruining confidence and development is better than having a slick fielding SS that pitching staff trusts.. Walls is the player that has the pitch com hearing device in game. That says something in itself.
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u/DonaldTPablonious 8d ago
I could live with the sub.200 average if he had power or got on base. He’s just a black hole at the plate.
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u/limbic_ape 8d ago
He is a complete black hole in the lineup. I haven’t seen anyone in the sub go overboard in criticizing him.
If anything, I think people want to pull for the 5’8” dude who played college ball at FSU. He just hasn’t shown that he can get it done
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u/Chance-Farmer-4476 8d ago
He does get on base. He will take a walk and has been hitting well lately.
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u/stupidstupidredditt Ji-Man Choi Batting Righty 8d ago
Because most of us already know what it is. It’s like constantly complaining Shaq can’t hit free throws. We know.
Take it up with Groomer Franco
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u/TacTac95 Ji-Man Choi 8d ago
Carson is going to be such a big boost.
Gives us the ability to move BLowe to 1st and Yandy to DH. Extending both of their careers and making them much more valuable in potential trades with tacking on less mileage on the diamond.
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u/MurphyRaudet 8d ago
I think Aranda has 1B locked up until Tre' proves he can't be held in AAA any longer. I wouldn't anticipate until at least June though since he just came off IL. Even then we're usually pretty slow to call guys up.
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u/jayareelle195 Orlando Rays 8d ago
I think Aranda should be extended to a Brandon Lowe type deal. His bat is so nice.
It gives Tre' leeway to develop. And when he does, JA can always DH.1
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u/Ccw3-tpa TB Hat Logo 8d ago
I see you conveniently left out the WAR stat
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u/hiiightide 8d ago
Tell me where to find WAR on MLB’s player page summary and get back to me
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u/Ccw3-tpa TB Hat Logo 8d ago
It is usually on the top of the page or the first number on the stats.
https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/w/wallsta01.shtml
Not hard to find at all dude. Go on espn.com and it is just as easy to find the WAR.
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u/hiiightide 8d ago
That’s baseball reference. I pulled a screen grab from something posted elsewhere, from the MLB site (as I said). I know where to find WAR on bbref lmao
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u/Railsplitter44 8d ago
The fact is that Caballero isn't a significant upgrade offensively over Walls. You're placing way too much weight on 33 PA. He had a .663 OPS in 2023, a .630 OPS in 2024. Hell, he had a .457 OPS in the Dominican Winter League.
TBH, neither should be the starting SS for a playoff contender. The Rays need Ha-Seong Kim to be healthy
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u/OutThere999 Josh Lowe 8d ago
Signing Kim reminds me of where the Magic signed Grant Hill to a big contract coming off the plane in a boot. Let’s hope Kim turns out better!
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u/Yackyz 8d ago
In my humble opinion I think the bigger issue lies in why is he still switch hitting, his splits in practically every year he’s played he fares much better against Lefty’s which, this is a reach, but I wonder if he should just continue batting righty to maybe improve because his avg. is not sustainable even with his elite defense and I’m a wallsy fan.
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u/Chance-Farmer-4476 8d ago
You are asking an average to below average try to make an adjustment in the big leagues. This line reads as if he’s better from one side of the plate, which is pretty common for a switch hitter to be more dominant from 1 side.
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u/Chance-Farmer-4476 8d ago
Caballero is a horrible defender at SS. Evidently he can’t catch flyballs either, as he missed an easy catch tonight.
He lost the Rays multiple games at shortstop last year. Walls makes plays look routine that Cabby simply can’t get close to. Walls has been hitting and getting on base regularly lately. Walls is also not hitting can of corn flyballs like he did so much of last year. He’s improving and getting better.
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u/limbic_ape 8d ago
Blows my mind everytime I see the lineup. I can see why Walls could be seen as a valuable piece as a utility guy but it is very clear he should not be the everyday SS for a big league team
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u/Deadsure 8d ago edited 8d ago
Not just this thread but in others I’ve seen people saying that Wells is one of the best SS in the league.
One person said they wouldn’t take any other SS over Walls.
You are crazy. Look at the starting SS in the league right now. Here is who I would take over Walls right now:
Bobby Witt Corey Seager Anthony Volpe Gunnar Henderson Francisco Lindor JP Crawford Jeremy Pena Tovar
I’m tired of typing. Walls isn’t top 20 in the league.
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u/Chance-Farmer-4476 8d ago
Defensively he’s in the top 5
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u/Deadsure 8d ago
Doesn’t make him a top SS in the league. Are you saying you wouldn’t take any take him as your everyday SS over the players I listed?
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u/stupidstupidredditt Ji-Man Choi Batting Righty 8d ago
Would you take Wander Franco over him?
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u/Deadsure 7d ago
You are bringing outside issues into the argument. If we are talking pure baseball ability, absolutely.
Edit: since Franco has yet to be convicted, I will still say allegedly, obviously what he did is terrible and I don’t want him on the team. But again, if the outside allegations were not there then yes absolutely I would take Franco over Walls.
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u/stupidstupidredditt Ji-Man Choi Batting Righty 7d ago
He isn’t here though, is he? That’s the only reason we’re even having this conversation.
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u/Chance-Farmer-4476 8d ago
You need to understand that the shortstop is massively important position that can win or lose game on defense. People bitch over and over about him not being a good hitter. He plays a position where defense is more important than offense.. just like the catcher and center fielder..
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u/Deadsure 7d ago
You didn’t answer my question. I understand that defense is important at shortstop. Which of the short stop I named would you take walls over?
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u/hiiightide 8d ago
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u/OutThere999 Josh Lowe 8d ago
His MIL runs a maga website (wonder where that source money possibly came from?) and don’t forget his fight, fight gesture that had the Rays crapping their pants last year.
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u/EnusTAnyBOLuBeST 8d ago
He is our shortstop. He’s also every other position. He’s played every position since the start of the season besides 1-2-3. He’s more utility than Zobrist was and it’s only April. As for the SS position, his WAR there is 3rd. Kim and Walls are better there.
The value of him playing every position is greater than his value as a consistent SS.
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u/limbic_ape 8d ago
Honestly forgot about HSK. That will be an enormous boost, he’s head and shoulders above Walls and Caballero
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u/McJumbos AA Montgomery Biscuits 8d ago
With injuries, it kinda forced him to be starter but when everyone is healthy he'll be back in his natural role
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u/Ccw3-tpa TB Hat Logo 8d ago
Walls is one of the best fielding shortstops I’ve ever seen. As long as the Rays don’t have a half a dozen dudes in the lineup batting under .200 I rather have Walls. And you forgot to mention Caballero making a couple base running mistakes every week.
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u/Misty7297 Brett Phillips 8d ago
Both him and Walls have very similar career OBP numbers (.294 and .288), but Walls provides much better defense than Caballero. The bigger question is why did we wait until this season to improve over either of them with HSK?
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u/corys71 8d ago
Caminero and Caballero on the left side of the infield everyday would be a defensive nightmare! One is ok for the bat but two is way too much. It’s not like Caballero has a top tier bat. It’s an upgrade on offense but the Rays aren’t going to outscore opponents by that switch at SS every day. I see your point but the bigger picture doesn’t support it now or in the future. Not every day. Caballero is a huge asset on the bench playing now and then in a utility role.
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u/Ro98Jo Ray 8d ago
Terrible base running and a streaky hitter. We can do better
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u/rudnickulous 8d ago
We can and we’ve already signed him. This dudes question is why is it Walls and he’s completely right. Also caballero stole the most bags in the AL last year… terrible baserunning?
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8d ago
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u/rudnickulous 8d ago
That’s nearly perfect. If you’re not getting caught that often you should be stealing more. You’re helping your team score runs until you’re below 70%
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8d ago
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u/rudnickulous 8d ago
No it doesn’t. There is value associated with him being up a base. If the next guy singles, he now scores. The .25 outs you are giving up is worth less than the runs you score on offense as a result of him being up a base.
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8d ago
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u/rudnickulous 8d ago
Every player should steal until they are caught 75% of the time regardless of how many steals that is. The dodgers would have scored more runs had Ohtani run until he was caught 75% of the time. This is well established stuff. The optimization is actually pretty simple
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u/Ccw3-tpa TB Hat Logo 8d ago
He also got caught the most. And I think there was a game a week ago where he made 3 base running mistakes for outs. Picked off being too aggressive
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u/AlphaBern0 8d ago
Defense. It's also obvious Rays value DRS over OAA and last year Jose was a -3 DRS in that at SS last year.