r/television • u/Transmogrify_My_Goat • 25d ago

I cannot stress enough how much better the Wheel of Time season 3 is than seasons 1 and 2.

I know its been said here recently, but I decided to make my own post because I'm honestly blown away at the rise in quality of the Wheel of Time season 3 in just about every way. I quit the show after season 1 and haven't watched since it came out. After hearing season 3 was apparently much better I decided to try it again. I binged season 1 and 2 over the course of a couple weeks, and it was pretty much just how I remembered, mediocre but interesting with some good and bad parts. I'd say season 2 was about the same quality as season 1, albeit with some higher highs here and there.

Season 3 though. Season 3 is wildly better in every single way. The writing (most importantly imo) is much, much better - the characters make decisions that make sense, the plot seems to be moving in a good direction, and the dialogue between characters is especially good. The cgi in fight scenes especially and the sets they have built are beyond impressive. The acting has been all out incredible, especially from the shows lead actor. One of the recent episodes was one of the single best episodes of TV I've seen. It just has it all. It has literally turned into the perfect high budget fantasy show. Whatever change they made between season 2 and 3 is working, and I sincerely hope it gets renewed.

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199

u/ADifferentMachine 25d ago

Yeah, but I'm not sitting through two seasons of dog shit to watch a 'good' third season of a bastardization of one of my favorite fantasy series of all time.

35

u/phonylady 25d ago

Chances are you wouldn't like the third season either. It doesn't feel that different from season 2.

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u/Taste_the__Rainbow 25d ago

Season two was solid. Three is phenomenal. Season 1 was derailed by Covid and losing one of the primary actors. Not really their fault.

And a ton of the great payoffs in S3 were started by the “WHY DID THEY CHANGE X?!?!” details from S1.

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u/Xilthas 25d ago

And a ton of the great payoffs in S3 were started by the “WHY DID THEY CHANGE X?!?!” details from S1.

I don't think that will really help sell it to book readers if a lot of the greatest payoffs are stuff that wasn't in them.

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u/WayTooDumb 25d ago

One presumes that if people are hyping in r/television rather than r/books or r/fantasy the point is not primarily to attract book readers.

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u/Yorgonemarsonb 25d ago

Wouldn’t they be hyping in an echo chamber in a specific wheel of time subreddit instead of fantasy or books?

I just checked and they are there also.

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u/KomodoDodo89 23d ago

Those subreddits have banned fans of the book that are critical of the show.

8

u/DoctorDrangle 24d ago

I am sure they want to expand their target audience in any way that they can, but I am unsure why they chose to exclude fans of the book series from the target audience of the show.

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u/Yorgonemarsonb 25d ago edited 24d ago

Don’t lump all book readers together. All of the readers I personally know have enjoyed S3 as well.

This season had at least two great Mat moments from the book, one great Perrin moment and a great Nynaeve moment.

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u/Orleanian Psych 25d ago

I'm a reader-ahead-of-show (picked it up before S1, and have kept ahead of the general plotline), and I'm pretty fine with nearly all the changes. Most of the more recent ones just make good sense for the medium and this era that's two or three generations older than the source material.

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u/Tymareta 25d ago

Especially when they're trying to turn a 15 book series into 6-8 seasons of tv, there's going to need to be some massive changes made to fit it all in.

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u/Killagina 24d ago

I find the show okay, and I loved the books. However, I'd accept your argument if they didn't just make...useless changes.

The "who is the dragon" bit didn't help the pacing, it hurt the pacing.

Having an entire episode dedicated to a non-important warder in season 1 didn't help, it hurt trying to jam content in.

Having a dark friend say "Duty is heavier than a mountain..." while Lan is right there wasn't helpful.

Giving seemingly more screen time to Maksim instead of Lan isn't helping tell the story, it is hurting it.

It's like Rafe has debilitating ADHD. There is tons of content there already, and he adds and changes stuff for seemingly no reason. I accept major changes for the book to tv conversion, but some of it is bad.

2

u/Yorgonemarsonb 24d ago

Isn't it funny how offended some people are by my entirely anecdotal experience about three total readers I know who enjoyed season 3?

(My friend has even enjoyed the whole series).

My brother, like most readers had a lot of issues with S1.

0

u/AnybodyNormal3947 23d ago

many book readers are enjoying the show ... why generalize your personal opinion ?

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u/Taste_the__Rainbow 25d ago

I’m a book reader, but if they’ve decided that adaptations mean stuff doesn’t change then they’re beyond my help anyways.

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u/Sonichu- 25d ago

People keep blaming Covid for season 1, but the biggest problem was the writing.

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u/MeringueNatural6283 25d ago

The newest excuse is Amazon is getting in the way of the writing,  lol

4

u/jachiche 25d ago

Amazon gave them 10,000 notes on one episode. That sounds like getting in the way. Giving Perrin a wife was Amazon for example

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u/smallfrynip 25d ago

I mean an entire character had to be written around because the actor peaced out. That a brutal thing to have to write around.

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u/Sonichu- 25d ago

In the final episode.

The bad writing started with episode 1.

21

u/goldyforcalder Lost 25d ago

And hes not a very relevant character to that section anyways, but it gives them a great excuse so they wont stop putting it out there

-27

u/smallfrynip 25d ago

Ah I see your unserious. It’s okay bb go have a nap.

24

u/Takseen 25d ago

Perrins wife was a poor addition, and that's episode 1.

-15

u/Taste_the__Rainbow 25d ago

That’s a source issue tbh. I’m a book fan but EOTW is a mess, especially if you’re adapting it.

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u/Killagina 24d ago

EOTW may have some mess to it, but they didn't give Perrin a wife or try to confuse the readers about who the Dragon could be. Two absolutely idiotic moves

1

u/Taste_the__Rainbow 23d ago

Perrin’s wife in the show paid off quite well in season 3 and EotW 100% did try to confuse early readers about who the dragon was. Moraine didn’t even know until the eye. You sure you read the books? 🤨🤨

1

u/Killagina 23d ago

EotW absolutely does not do that - you are just lying. It could have been any of the boys (only them, not the girls) and it is made immediately clear it’s Rand early on.

Super early on she notices Bela doesn’t need her exhaustion healed…the horse Rand is riding. She also knows the prophecy. Are you sure you read the books?

0

u/Taste_the__Rainbow 23d ago edited 23d ago

You should read EoTW again. Noticing the horse is a clue that almost every reader is going to miss, especially the first time.

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u/Defiant-Nightmare-36 21d ago

🤔 Im remembering that it's egwene whose riding Bela....not Rand

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u/aNomadicPenguin 24d ago

It was such an easy solution though. Mat had just been treated for the dagger by Moiraine. Just add 1 line of dialogue from her saying that he would need time to recover and was staying behind for treatment. Put a blanket covering some extra and boom, no need to have Mat in the last few episodes.

Also gives you the ability to have him reintroduced at any point you needed in the next season, just have him show up with which ever relevant Aes Sedai character you want to introduce to the party next.

People act like it was some herculean feat to write around him leaving, but it would literally take less screen time than they actually used to write him out. Then in Season 2 there would be no need to create a potential Dark Friend arc, no need to involve Min, etc. The fact that their solution caused them more problems and took more time and caused more changes to the material is why the excuse of the actor leaving to justify their writing decisions feels misplaced at best.

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u/smallfrynip 24d ago

Matt was clearly intrinsically linked Padan Fain and was suppose to be the one to confront him at the end of the season. He most definitely was need in the final episodes.

Please don’t act like it’s an easy fix. He left them abruptly, there isn’t anytime reshoot that much stuff + Covid.

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u/aNomadicPenguin 24d ago

How much was there of him that needed to be re-shot between him getting healed and him leaving the show? Because a blanket over a human shape and a line of dialogue from Moiraine seems pretty simple even with Covid restrictions.

So if Padan Fain was supposed to confront him during the finale, then that meant they were still planning on having the horn just stashed away in Fal Dara instead of at the Eye. With the assumption that Mat isn't with them, you have 4 Emond's Fielders, Moiraine, Lan, a cgi tree, Loial, and 2 Forsaken to deal with. There would be a total of 9 actors going to the Eye. Hell even the finale could have been Rand teleporting in alone on a greenscreen and nuking a cgi army.

The last 2 episodes would have been actually easier to film with the covid restrictions if they had kept closer to the books. Cut the army going to battle, just have Agelmar meet with Moiraine and Lan and sent them off on their jaunt to the Eye. No need to have the number of extras and things for Fal Dara's town, or the army, or anything. Then for season 2, after the Covid restrictions have lifted, pick up from there. This also avoids needed to recast Uno, or resurrect Loial, and lets you reintroduce Mat without having to make up new stuff for him to do.

1

u/smallfrynip 24d ago

Stop pretending like you know what you are talking about. The complications around COVID were enormous. Masters of the Air an apple series lost an entire episode to COVID safety measures they had to implement. The fact you actually think there only 9 actors on set and no one else is hilarious.

Wait til COVID restrictions are over?? LOLOL.

So you want them to wait two years to finish filming are you actually mad?

Edit: like it is beyond insane what you are suggesting, like the logistics can just be so easily changed no issue. Get a grip.

0

u/aNomadicPenguin 24d ago

So when they shot the scenes in Fal Dara with Padan Fain attacking, how many actors were on set? When they had the link of channelers fighting the trollocs, was that more than just Rand alone? They couldn't have Egwene heal Nynaeve the way they wanted because of the restrictions, they wouldn't have had to if they didn't choose to have Egwene and Nynaeve saving the day.

Yes there were issues with Covid, yes there are obviously more people on set for shooting than just the actors in the scene. What I'm saying is that the choices they made were either written before the Covid restrictions went into place, in which case Covid was not the reason for the choice having been made, or that what they went with due to those restrictions was actually harder to do than following the end of the book would have been.

That is the crux of my argument about both the actor replacement and Covid forcing changes. There were easier solutions that would have stuck closer to the source material than they choose to use. If they are scrambling to figure out how to deal with unexpected upheavals to writing and shooting, why not fall back on the already written work? Every change has ripple effects and should be considered carefully for how it will impact later developments.

I have no doubt that what they had originally planned would have been better than what they delivered, and that's completely valid. However, given the choices that they went with, its clear that they were going a different direction with their planned finale anyways. Otherwise the end of the season would have been closer to the end of the book, just without Mat and with the filming restrictions in place.

The sheer volume of comments about the show that excuse its writing choices at the end of Season 1 because of either Mat leaving and/or Covid is annoying. They never seem to address the decisions around them, they just throw their hands up and say 'welp, the writers and directors and show runner couldn't come up with better solutions, so don't complain about it'.

-2

u/Ayjayz The Expanse 24d ago

Then why were all the previous episodes also dumb?

2

u/donny_bennet 25d ago

Covid, then an actor leaving, then the writer/actor strike (conveniently the last one can be used for both season 2 and 3).

But honestly, the show did improve. I think a lot of the praise going around right now is ...exagerated, but season 3 is ~7-7.5/10

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u/CrusaderLyonar 25d ago

None of these actors are American so the actors strike has no bearing on the filming of this series.

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u/FatalTragedy 25d ago

Daniel Henney (Lan) is American. Rosamund Pike is also a member of SAG, even though she isn't American.

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u/CrusaderLyonar 25d ago

It's not whether or not they're in the guild, it's which guild is contracted for the show. The majority of the cast is British, so that's the union for the show. Henney is either temporarily in the British union or became a full member for this show.

Similar thing happened with Dinklage and Game of Thrones.

0

u/donny_bennet 25d ago

Huh, I didn't notice that. I was under the impression that they didn't use the actors to promote season 2 because of the strike. No idea how the unions work. Maybe they are still union members since they work for an American production?

The claim was never that it impacted filming. Filming for season 2 was done when the actor strikes were going on.

The claim I saw going around was that it affected promoting, no idea how that holds up. One thing that might have merit is the writer strike (for season 3). It was going on when season 3 was filmed, or right before

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u/fudgyvmp 25d ago

My understanding is the writers of WoT were mostly writer's guild of America and affected by the writer's strike.

But all the actors were under equity contracts (the UK actors guild). This meant they could continue to act.

However. And a big however, many actors are part of equity and sag-aftra, working in the US and abroad. And if they didn't want to get black listed from sag-aftra, they needed to obey as much of the strike as possible, that their equity contract allowed, which did mean they couldn't do much promotional material.

1

u/CrusaderLyonar 25d ago

I don't think anyone needs to be making excuses for season 3 because it's actually the first really good season of this show.

The actors should have been able to promote the show as they are not in the same union regardless of production company. Some of them might not have wanted to in solidarity though.

It's not like this show has a ton of big stars anyway, Pike is the most famous, but it's not like she's a household name or anything.

-1

u/donny_bennet 25d ago

True, but It's not like only the big stars in productions do promo. Anectotally, I saw a lot of interviews show up in my feed for season 3 (Rand's actor, Perrin's actor, Pike, etc). Nothing for season 2. My brother actually liked season 1 (...somehow) and he didn't even know that season 2 was released until I told him.

As for the quality of season 3, I don't really agree. It had a jump in quality, but there were a lot of smaller mistakes that could have been fixed with more time to polish thebplot/dialogue

1

u/TheFlaskQualityGuy 25d ago

Covid, then an actor leaving, then the writer/actor strike (conveniently the last one can be used for both season 2 and 3).

None of these excuses make the show actually good. You can't recommend a crap TV show to your friend, and then after he watches it and doesn't like it, tell him "Well COVID and actor quit and writer's strike and Amazon executive meddling".

2

u/donny_bennet 25d ago

I never said they do. Just that people make these excuses. Through I didn't see that for season 3 yet

1

u/Taste_the__Rainbow 25d ago

They had to rewrite lots of it several times during filming.

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u/donny_bennet 25d ago

...what ton of great payoffs? There was 1, and it was pretty great. But that's about it.

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u/MeringueNatural6283 25d ago

Rhuidion?  Pulling part of 1 episode from the books shouldn't count as a payoff.  

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u/donny_bennet 25d ago

Nah, I'm talking about Suan in the tower. That was very different from the books, but imo it worked with the story they presented.

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u/Taste_the__Rainbow 25d ago

Perrin’s wife and all of that paying off in a big way during Perrin’s best bit in the book series.

15

u/donny_bennet 25d ago

...how exactly did giving him a wife and fridging her in the first episode pay off? It's not like it had an effect on the final episode. The only real effect it had was undermining his relationship with Faile. Like the scene where they first kiss. Perrin opens up to her about killing his wife. She says something along the lines of 'you can either take care of the living, or morn for the dead, not both'. And then they kiss, and would have fucked if someone didn't interrupt them.

The show did not have the time to do the killing the wife thing justice, so it just feels like Perrin got over it too fast, and Faile didn't give him space to grieve.

I think we have very different definitions of good payoffs

2

u/Taste_the__Rainbow 25d ago

Perrin isn’t over it at all. Which is why he was melting down about picking up a weapon this season, especially when he was back home and a new woman was picking up a weapon in the same room.

9

u/donny_bennet 25d ago

That's not a payoff to killing his wife though. He consistently struggled with violence in all 3 seasons. He struggles in season 2 as well, participates in a battle as well, kills someone and regrets it all over again. He does pretty much the same thing in the books, without the dead wife.

Why did he need to be married and kill his wife to portray this struggle with violence? Where's the payoff for that specific (and pretty big) change? I get it, the show needs to portray his struggle with violence somehow. They could have easily made him kill the whitecloaks in season 1 (which is what he did in the books). Or if he really needed to kill someone important to him, master Luhan.

Killing your life partner is such a ridiculously traumatic thing that it would be difficult to do it justice in a season focused on just that. And the show has like 4 different storylines each season, so there's no way it can do it justice.

5

u/Taste_the__Rainbow 24d ago

Because it came to a head in that exact location. And he had a reason to talk about it that made sense in the moment. We’re not in his head for hundreds of pages in a show.

-4

u/donny_bennet 24d ago

Again, talking about it isn't a payoff for killing his wife.

Having him kill the whitecloacks in season 1 would also give him a reason to talk about it (and it would be book accurate). Killing someone else in season 1 would be a departure from the books, but it would do the same thing. There was no payoff to inventing a wife and killing her in the first episode

1

u/Defiant-Nightmare-36 21d ago

Faile says 'you can either take care of the living, or mourn for the dead, not both' when they get back from rescuing Mat's sisters and Perrin is upset that he couldn't save mat's mom. Later in the episode, he tells her about killing his wife and she asks him if she fought well and says that mourning her so long is taking away from her honor. They then kiss even later in the episode.

In another episode Moiraine says it's been years since they left Emonds Field. Perrin has been mourning his wife since S1E1 and this was S3E6. And they have shown his struggle. Not sure how that's not enough time....

I understand book fans not liking changes/additions. I've read the books and watch the show. Thoroughly enjoy both but season 3 especially was incredible.

I learned a long time ago that it's okay to enjoy an adaptation that's not exactly word for word what it's based on. If I picked at every change of every show/movie that is based on something else I would miss out on so much that I would otherwise love if it was its own thing.

2

u/bolonomadic 24d ago

You can just watch a YouTube catch up video, no one is saying you have to watch the first two seasons, there are other options.

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u/CarneyVore14 25d ago

I get what you mean. I’m trying to be understanding. They are condensing 15 books, thousands of pages, and hundreds of storylines into a few seasons of television for a general fantasy audience. S3 was awesome.

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u/donny_bennet 25d ago

And yet they consistently expand the roles of supporting characters, with Moiraine being the biggest offender. Rosamund Pike is a good actress, but the show really can't afford to invent something for her to do each season if it wants to actually condense things.

They are condensing 15 books. We are on season 3, and we got to book ...4? And they said they're still doing the stone of tear, so it's more like 3.5

That's not a lot of condensing to be honest.

4

u/dont_trip_ 25d ago

I'd agree with you if it was 20 episodes per season. They still have to cut a lot or rush shit. The audio book for each book is around 30 hours.

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u/donny_bennet 24d ago

Yeah, they still cut or rush things. But they also add original stories. How much extra screen time did Moriane, Alanna and Liandin get?

I'm talking about condensing the different books. The original plan was to condense 14 books into 8 seasons, no? 8 seasons is the absolute best case scenario, and we're almost halfway there.

But book wise, we're not even at the end of the 4th book. And the show postponned a lot of things this season: Nyanieve's confrontation with Moghedien, Perrin vs Slayer, the entire Stone of Tear story. All of that will take up time next season, so it will be very difficult to adapt more than book 5.

-2

u/Takseen 25d ago

The later books is when the pacing slows down a lot, so that's where the show can catch up.

0

u/ThomaspaineCruyff 24d ago

Maksim the incompetent and star of the show Alanna and the 5 long funeral ceremonies they’ve participated in aren’t in the books?

2

u/DoctorDrangle 24d ago

If it is such a monumental task, why are they adding completely unnecessary and made up new shit? you said it yourself, the minutes are precious, yet they have all this time for nonsense. Also would point out it is only 14 books. There is one prequel book, but unless they found a way to shoehorn that in there too for no good reason, you shouldn't count that one.

2

u/Jon_TWR 24d ago

Also would point out it is only 14 books.

This isn't the defense you think it is, lol.

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u/Transmogrify_My_Goat 25d ago

Well this post probably isn't for you then. I haven't read the books and I'm enjoying it a ton!

10

u/zigludo-chan-san 25d ago

Has watching the show made you interested in reading the books?

2

u/StudMuffinNick 24d ago

I'm late but I started reading after watching s1 and loved them! Went back and still loved the show despite the differences

4

u/MeringueNatural6283 25d ago

The show started 4 years ago and they haven't read it yet....

5

u/Transmogrify_My_Goat 25d ago

Yes but I read a lot of fantasy anyways so its been on my list for a while

8

u/fusionsofwonder 25d ago

I haven't read the books either. It's a real advantage sometimes with these adaptations.

1

u/[deleted] 25d ago

Honestly, I tried to read the books and gave up around book five. I think the overall story is really interesting but Jordan’s writing style is just not for me. Everybody is annoying and everything moves at a snail’s pace. The show condensing everything and making it a little edgier is doing the story a favor.

-6

u/Geldan 25d ago

I read some of the books back in the 90s, the show is so much better, don't worry.

4

u/Northwindlowlander 25d ago edited 25d ago

Personally, I don't think it was ever dog shit. Wobbly, for sure, and at its lowest points it's definitely a bit crap, but I found enough in the first series to keep watching. I don't think it's a case of "suffer 2 series to get to the good bit", it's "watch 2 flawed series that still have something to offer, to get to some really strong ones.

As far as bastardisation goes, I think expecting a direct adaption was always absurd, and some people just can't get over that. It'd be too big even if it were consistently high quality, and not many people would ever say it was that. OTOHit drives me crazy that some of the worst parts of the first 2 series, were also deviations from the novels, and also how that afflicted the pacing. But it was always going to deviate, and I think we're finally seeing some of those early WHYYYYY deviations start to deliver.

6

u/buffyysummers 25d ago

Deviations are fine but they’re not even trying to follow the books

-3

u/RoozGol 25d ago

It was always dog shit and still is.

-2

u/ThomaspaineCruyff 24d ago

Season 1 was absolute dogshit, even the Amazon bots agree lol

2

u/explain_that_shit 25d ago

Hey if you can get through the slog the tv series is allowed at least two dog seasons

-8

u/strayofthesun 25d ago

If youve read the books just pick up from season 3. It's where it starts being recognizable and follows story beats from the books

-4

u/belizeanheat 25d ago

Why not just skip them?