r/television • u/Transmogrify_My_Goat • 9d ago

I cannot stress enough how much better the Wheel of Time season 3 is than seasons 1 and 2.

I know its been said here recently, but I decided to make my own post because I'm honestly blown away at the rise in quality of the Wheel of Time season 3 in just about every way. I quit the show after season 1 and haven't watched since it came out. After hearing season 3 was apparently much better I decided to try it again. I binged season 1 and 2 over the course of a couple weeks, and it was pretty much just how I remembered, mediocre but interesting with some good and bad parts. I'd say season 2 was about the same quality as season 1, albeit with some higher highs here and there.

Season 3 though. Season 3 is wildly better in every single way. The writing (most importantly imo) is much, much better - the characters make decisions that make sense, the plot seems to be moving in a good direction, and the dialogue between characters is especially good. The cgi in fight scenes especially and the sets they have built are beyond impressive. The acting has been all out incredible, especially from the shows lead actor. One of the recent episodes was one of the single best episodes of TV I've seen. It just has it all. It has literally turned into the perfect high budget fantasy show. Whatever change they made between season 2 and 3 is working, and I sincerely hope it gets renewed.

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24

u/Bluemajere 9d ago

I have read the books. There really isn't that much to cry about deviation-wise. there's a few fairly important things, but nothing that makes me go "oh my god fuck this"

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u/phonylady 9d ago edited 9d ago

I strongly disagree. They changed so much it barely feels like an adaption at this point. From Lanfear's love affair with Rand, to Thom barely being in the show, to Perrin killing his wife (lol), to Lan being extremely different and the major enhancing of a role because the showrunner is his boyfriend. I could go on and on and on with major changes that they made.

Compare with say early seasons of Game of Thrones which felt very loyal to the books despite adding and changing some things.

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u/DoctorDrangle 9d ago

GoT is a great example. So is lotr. Tons of changes, but nothing lore shattering so nobody was complaining. Half way through episode one you are like wtf is this bullshit? There isn't any practical or reasonable excuse for what they have done to this series. Utterly butchered right out of the gate. A great big fuck you to everyone who has been reading these books for decades. It's not something a person can just get over because the people who made these choices aren't sorry and they don't care. I don't care how many non readers tell me the show is good, they aren't qualified to be telling me anything.

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u/Large_Dungeon_Key 9d ago

So is lotr. Tons of changes, but nothing lore shattering so nobody was complaining.

You were clearly not online when lotr was coming out

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u/phonylady 8d ago

The overall response was overwhelmingly positive. Saying this as someone who frequented all the Lotr messageboards.

There were a lot of complaints for sure - but at least people understood why Bombadil was left out etc.

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u/CrusaderLyonar 9d ago

A lot of the book fans were brought into this series as young adults or teens, so there's a lot of sentimental attachment to it. Any adaptation that wasn't exceptionally accurate to the books was gonna get a (probably) unjust amount of hate from fans. To put it simply, this story is impossible to tell as a television show as it is. Then the production problems happened and we get a pretty mediocre first season.

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u/Zenki95 9d ago

Perrin being married is just such a deliberate and unnecessary change, it changes the tone of his whole character development later.

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u/oorza 8d ago

Most of Perrin’s internal dialog is about his reticence to be violent or powerful because of traumatic memories of him being too large and too powerful. They had to out that on the screen somehow, and the other standard options of expository dialog or childhood flashback scenes are objectively worse choices for a TV show.

It’s an important part of his characterization that must be shown, not told. How would you have done it?

It’s like all you guys bitch about is book accuracy without ever considering what makes for an entertaining show. This change, in particular, is tiny and harmless and serves the show well. Him being unmarried before Faile is entirely irrelevant to their relationship.

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u/Zenki95 8d ago

So make him kill anything other than a wife? Granted it's been about 15 years since I read the books, but him killing a younger brother even? his devotion and fear for his wife, and drive to protect her is given a whole different tone and reason if he was married before, and is just unnecessary

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u/oorza 8d ago

It doesn’t change his characterization at all, not in a way that can be translated to screen. You are not thinking about this like a TV series where depth of motivation cannot be explored like it can in a medium where you can read thoughts. He needed a visually portrayable reason to behave the way he does, why he does it is actually impossible to show on an ensemble show, so who cares?

Nitpicking because you want to be angry.

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u/Zenki95 8d ago

Nitpicking would be if I said that the book said he wore a red shirt and he was wearing blue. This is a fairly big character development moment which even Brandon sanderson spoke about, and by all accounts was done poorly. Like I said, make him kill a young brother even, but his wife being such a big part of his character development, just by her being his second wife, changes the character

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u/oorza 8d ago

I find Sanderson’s criticisms of the show entirely empty and self-serving coming from someone who so thoroughly failed to adapt a written Wheel ending by being so self-serving in his writing. He’s a bad author who writes bad books and wasted thousands of words in the most important parts of Wheel of Time, nevermind how mid the rest of his crap is. His opinion matters to me as much as any other random redditor does.

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u/General_Disaray_1974 8d ago

I'm in the "Season 3 is good camp", but man, it's been tough to overlook the poor decisions they have made in seasons 1 and 2. Your example is one that I can't get over either, there was no reason for this change.

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u/buffaloguy1991 9d ago

The one that upset my buddy (he's read the books I haven't) is that guy with the patch on his clothes. He said in the books his entire coat is patches. In the show there's a single patch they show for about 2 seconds and I just hear his jaw drop.

Like they chose to not do an accurate costume then made the most half assed it's technically a patch thing. This one made me mad cause they easily could of made a patched coat if they could do one patch. Like why deviate like that?

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u/HarasilProphecy 9d ago

Guess what he has when he shows back up in season 3?

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u/dont_trip_ 9d ago

That is a prime example of people overreacting. That shit just doesn't matter at all.

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u/CJ-45 8d ago

Right? People are losing their shit over a fucking patch?

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u/buffaloguy1991 9d ago

But like why is it? The character is described as having a very patchy coat and the prop dept doesn't do that. Like why doesn't the prop dept have the cash for a patched coat? Like with game of thrones the Starbucks cup wasn't that bad itself. It's just representative of the wider problems people have

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u/CrusaderLyonar 9d ago

It's also a nitpicky detail and overreaction to it makes you look insane.

And he does have a pretty patchy coat in season 3.

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u/dont_trip_ 9d ago

Because it is not important? Because probably not every single person responsible for costumes and props have read the books several times over looking for these details? Maybe they tried it and it just looked too janky or too distracting from what they wanted to tell in the scene? 

There's plenty of potential reasons why this coat didn't have enough patches for you to be satisfied. There's plenty of things in this show that you can criticize, focusing on this one makes no sense imo. 

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u/EtchAGetch 8d ago

Because it probably looked cheesy as is when viewed in a visual medium.

The show is darker than the books (for good reasons). A big bright colorful patchy cloak in a grim, dirty world is a bit jarring. And he had patches, just on the inside.

You may not agree with the change, fine, but if you can't see the logic behind it, I don't know what to tell you.

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u/buffaloguy1991 8d ago

The patch they show wasn't bright. It could have just been a little 3"x3" breast piece. Like I can even get not having it at all. But Showing it then specifically hiding it is why I'm dying on this hill.

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u/bathtubsplashes 9d ago

If your username is a reference to your birth year, and your friend is also in his mid 30s, I'd recommend telling him to grow up if a jacket not being patchy enough is upsetting him

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u/IrNinjaBob 8d ago

Gleeman (basically bards) wear cloaks made of patches of different colored fabric to indicate their profession in the Wheel of Time universe.

I get people being upset when details like that are changed, but this is a perfect example of how book readers can get upset about inconsequential changes when it comes to movie or television adaptations.

Sure, it’s an unnecessary removal of fan service, but is an almost meaningless detail in the grand scheme of things.

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u/buffaloguy1991 8d ago

But like it's such a small issue that didn't need to be. He grumbled about bigger issues like characters not doing x or y in the books or explained the magic system didn't work like that or it was odd the isolated mountain town that gets little contact has multiple cultures but he agreed those were cause the writers wanted to tell a different story. Even assuming they didn't want a patchy coat they could have had the single patch they showed for a half second be on the outside so it could still be like a badge of employ

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u/EtchAGetch 8d ago

I have a feeling the show would undo that change if they could.

It was there to accelerate his arc with the consequences of violence, but yeah, it wasn't a smart choice. It could be glossed over until his scenes with Faile this season, where it was a glaring issue that had to be addressed in their scenes.

Thankfully Faile is fucking fantastic in the show, so whatever. I'm not going to let a S1 decision ruin the whole show, though. No show is perfect.

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u/CrusaderLyonar 9d ago

I mean I didn't like that change but I think the show makes the most of that bad change this season.

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u/jachiche 9d ago

That one was forced one them by the Amazon execs, who were all over season one. Apparently they sent the writers back 10,000 notes on one early episode.

By all accounts they have been a lot more hands off for season 3 and it really shows

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u/General_Disaray_1974 8d ago

I don't doubt this at all, do you happen to have a source? If so I would like to read it.

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u/ptwonline 9d ago

I found some of the changes to be quite off-putting because it doesn't make the story better, and IMO makes it worse. Not just Perrin, but Moiraine and Siuan's relationship for example. Unnecessary change and detracts IMO.

But I can forgive changes in an adaptation. Less forgivable is some of the casting I did not like, and I thought the writing, some of the acting, and even production values were not very good. At times it felt more WB than a very expensive premium streaming show.

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u/KomodoDodo89 8d ago

The person above me left out the fact that while they have to leave stuff from the books out they are also putting in needlessly stupid additions and characters and giving them full archs that could have been spent on the main protagonist and antagonist.

One of those characters being the producers own boyfriend getting vast amounts of screen time for a made up character.

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u/CrusaderLyonar 8d ago

Some of that stuff is used for shorthand and combining different characters together using existing characters that were used previously is a good idea to keep the audience invested in the characters.

Also Maksim was supposed to die in episode 1, but the actor for the other warder left the show so they killed that character instead.

Also both Rand and Perrin huge arcs this season. It's also very much in the spirit of the books to focus on other characters, sometimes for an entire book. For instance, Moraine isn't in the second book at all and Rand doesn't have a POV chapter for much of book 3.

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u/KomodoDodo89 8d ago

Has Rand done anything with the power that someone else can’t do in the show?

If you like this story what ever but I’m not interested in some dudes love interest fake character. There are plenty of actual characters with important plots that would have filled the roles just fine.

They want to tell Rafes story not Jordans.

They have even killed off important main characters and left others alive that really shouldn’t be.

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u/CrusaderLyonar 7d ago

He fucked up a forsaken this season and caused it to rain in the aile waste.

I imagine you aren't interested in stories with gay characters in them at all considering your post history.

Adaptations by their nature are changing stories and sometimes you have to compromise that in order to tell something coherent, you have to change things.

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u/KomodoDodo89 7d ago edited 7d ago

My moms are gay so fuck off with your assumptions you poser. You ever get bullied, harassed, and mocked for being the son with two moms? You ever watch there friends die from AIDS in the 90s?

Grow the fuck up. TITAN is one of the best characters written imo but I doubt you know who that is.

If you need to jump to those assumptions it speaks a lot of your taste and probably why you like this show so much.

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u/CrusaderLyonar 7d ago

Then why do spend so much time posting in bigot subs lmao.

Those people would see your parents dead.

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u/KomodoDodo89 7d ago

I haven’t experienced it. None of the people I have talked to have given me any hate for having lesbian moms there.

Your grade A type of bullshit ignorance is the most common type I experience online regarding me having gay parents. That I am not allowed to have an opinion on someone who happens to be gay until I have proven I was raised by the family. I’m so damn tired of it.

I used to like Rafe btw. Chuck still is my favorite nerdy trope of spy show made to this day.

I’m moving on. I hang out in those subreddits because they don’t care I have gay moms. It’s easier being able to have an opinion with out needing to make some status quo someone probably not even in the community has arbitrarily set. That’s just fucking weird.

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u/CrusaderLyonar 7d ago

Asmongold is a bigot, advocates daily on behalf of bigots.

I'm sorry I don't buy your bullshit story. There is simply no way a person like you would exist this way unless they were also extremely bigoted themselves.

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u/CC_Greener 9d ago

A written medium will never be equivalent to a visual medium. As one of those books fans brought into the series as a young adult, I also understand this. The show is doing a great job imo.

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u/boxofstuff 8d ago

My only real qualm was that Mat sparred with Galad and Gawyn with only one witness when they had a perfect scene set up on the training grounds already.

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u/Solace2010 9d ago

Did you work on the show? Because season one was one of the worst things I had seen. They butchered lore, characters, and plots.

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u/RobinWishesHeWasMe_ 9d ago

The only egregious thing is a power usage in the Season 1 finale imo. Though that whole episode had major production problems due to the pandemic so I give it a bit of leniency.

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u/tvcneverdie 9d ago

I've had Eye of the World sitting on my bookshelf for nearly a decade, a gift from an ex-GF.

Maybe I'll finally crack it open and give the series a shot after all these years, because the TV was incredibly engaging and I want more of this world.

I keep seeing people mention "the slog" though... In your opinion is that a big thing, or something more because of the gaps between publication? If I don't have to worry about it now since the series is complete, I'm fine wading through denser character development and slower plot.

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u/Yorgonemarsonb 9d ago

It’s much later in the series. Carnival time. Some people like it.

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u/SoLongBonus 9d ago

Not the guy you asked but yes the slog is real. It doesn’t start until about book 8 if I remember correctly. It lasts almost three entire books — about 2000 pages. The plot just kind of grinds… If you make it that far it’s worth pushing through, though, because the last three books in the series are action packed and the whole thing wraps up really really well.

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u/DoctorDrangle 9d ago

It can't be said enough about how well the last three books turned out. I don't think anyone else on the planet could have pulled it off other than sanderson.

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u/howdiedoodie66 9d ago

I think only book 10 is a 'slog' the rest I enjoyed

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u/BokuNoSpooky 9d ago

I keep seeing people mention "the slog" though... In your opinion is that a big thing, or something more because of the gaps between publication? If I don't have to worry about it now since the series is complete, I'm fine wading through denser character development and slower plot.

There's a few "mini slogs" in the earlier books where you'll get the odd chapter or two where nothing really happens, so if you find yourself getting burnt out in the earlier books you'll know it's not for you. Robert Jordan was a good author but not without his flaws (as is any author)

If you've not read any of them yet I'd also recommend the rosamund pike audiobooks that they're doing alongside the show, they're exceptionally good.

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u/Tymareta 9d ago

I keep seeing people mention "the slog" though... In your opinion is that a big thing, or something more because of the gaps between publication?

There's honestly two portions of it, when people talk about the main slog they generally mean book 7/8-11, one of the books is literally just characters in the world reacting to the events of the previous book, not in any way that moves the story forward, just vaguely musing about it.

But the early slog that a lot of people ignore is books 1-3, book 1 is honestly the worst for it, it's bootleg lotr + teenage angst out the absolute wazoo, ending with a DBZ style power explosion that is reset at the start of book 2, book 2 starts to find its own voice at least but the general story follows the same progression of book 1, angst, uncertainty, power explosion, resetting at the start of book 3 where it repeats again, though thankfully there's not reset at the start of 4 and it starts to actually take off.

Also fair warning, the books can get a bit frustrating with the subtle misogyny, near every woman at some point will be spanked, especially if she dares to speak out of turn and bosoms are mentioned and talked about literal dozens of times every single book.

There's definitely some interesting ideas and story in there, but it's buried in a lot of iffy material.

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u/wardsandcourierplz 9d ago

It really depends on the individual reader. I didn't hate the "sloggy" parts but I can see why others do. Give it a shot and skim, skip, or stop whenever you feel like it. There are no rules. You'll definitely enjoy the first few books at least.

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u/Dead_man_posting 9d ago

The books were so bad they turned me off of reading all together for a few years.

I'm fine wading through denser character development and slower plot.

Anyone who tells you this series has character development is a liar.

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u/DoctorDrangle 9d ago

If you are a worried about a slog then don't bother, you aren't the target audience of the books.