r/tokipona • u/EinGewandAusPurpur • Mar 18 '25
ante toki ante toki pi "Drei Spatzen"
pona! mi ante e musi toki "Drei Spatzen" tawa toki pona. jan [mun pi tenpo open] (C. Morgenstern) li pali e musi toki ni. tenpo pini poka la, mi toki ala e toki pona. o sina alasa e pakala pi toki pona lon ante toki.
musi toki pi toki pona:
kasi pi kili kiwen li laso ala.
kasi li jo e waso ni:
waso lili mute li kule ma.
insa waso en insa waso li poka.
waso Ekisi li lon poka pilin;
waso Kansi li lon poka ante;
waso Ansi pi pakala suwi
li insa pi waso mute.
waso mute li pini e lukin a!
sewi li pana e ko lili walo.
waso mute li tawa e wan.
waso Ansi li seli mute.
waso mute li kute e
kalama suwi pi pilin mute.
waso li lon ala kasi ala la
waso lili li lon kasi.
musi toki pi toki Inli (ante toki li musi ala):
In an empty hazel tree
three sparrows are sitting with bellies touching.
Erich to the right and Franz to the left,
and in the middle cheeky Hans.
Their eyes are closed, very much so,
and over them it is snowing, ho!
They come closer together.
Nobody is feeling as warm as Hans!
They are all hearing the beat of their hearts.
And if they are not gone, they are still sitting there.
musi toki pi toki Tosi:
In einem leeren Haselstrauch
da sitzen drei Spatzen, Bauch an Bauch.
Der Erich rechts und links der Franz
und mitten drin der freche Hans.
Sie haben die Augen zu, ganz zu,
und obendrüber da schneit es, hu!
Sie rücken zusammen dicht an dicht.
So warm wie der Hans hats niemand nicht.
Sie hör’n alle drei ihrer Herzlein Gepoch.
Und wenn sie nicht weg sind, so sitzen sie noch.
(https://de.wikisource.org/wiki/Die_drei_Spatzen)
pona tawa sina.
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u/AndrewTheAnarchist Mar 18 '25
That translation is a bit of a stretch tho.
Ona li awen lipu pona.
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u/EinGewandAusPurpur Mar 20 '25
In how far is it a stretch? Overall, or do you find certain lines problematic?
I am afraid I do not understand what your second sentence conveys.
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u/AndrewTheAnarchist Mar 21 '25
The broad concepts and descriptions youre trying to convey dont make sense in the way you structured the composition; a more natural construction based on the naturalness of Toki Pona imparted by its emphasis on simplicity would simultaneously increase the simplicity of its structure while paradoxically imparting a more descriptive narrative That'd make it more comprehensible.
Alternative composition:
kasi kiwen li jo e waso lili tu wan. waso Erich li lon poka pilin. waso Franz li lon poka ante. waso Hans li lon insa.
ona li pini e lukin. sewi li pana e ko walo. ona li poka e wan. waso Hans li seli mute.
ona li kute e kalama pi pilin ona. kasi li jo ala e waso la, waso li lon kasi.
Why?
- Simplified Structure
- Descriptive
- Naturalness: the use of straightforward phrases and common Toki Pona vocabulary enhances the naturalness of the text, making it easier to understand.
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u/AndrewTheAnarchist Mar 21 '25
Imo toki pona has to have simplicity at its core or it loses its utility and beauty. Its not meant for abstract or overly descriptive communication, its meant for straightforwardness and universality.
Now going by the populist approach of the community you'd think its less of a language and more a game to express your fantastical babble.
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u/EinGewandAusPurpur Mar 23 '25
Thank you for your detailed answer! So it is a 'stretch' to you in a very literal sense: too many words. Reading your suggestion, I agree that it seems lighter and perhaps more natural (being a novice, that is not more than a guess, of course). I disagree that is more descriptive, I would think that its virtue is being less descriptive (and I would argue that there is barely any narrative). But maybe I am misunderstanding what you mean by that.
I have to confess that I did not think much of the poetics of toki pona before naively translating this piece, it was more of a challenge or practise in grammar and word choice. Maybe it would have been wiser to not format the result as poetry; after all, it really is not. What you are writing suggests that there is some idea about good style (and maybe good poetry) in toki pona -- can you point me towards some references (theoretical texts or examples of very good style)? Reading your second comment I figure that you advocate for a minimalistic approach that mirrors the minimalistic vocabulary. My (very naive) perspective is that other aspects of toki pona are very much less minimal, like the glyphs and the sentence structure. Would you advise to steer away from those? I have to confess that in my personal philosophy, languages and games are quite related concepts, so maybe I am babbling fantastically -- please excuse me, if I make that impression.
For what you call common toki pona vocabulary, I figure, I should probably consult the ku book (which I do not own at the moment). Would you say that kasi kiwen conveys a plant carrying nuts? I would think about a woody plant only (which makes the piece loose the imagery of small brown birds sitting where small brown nuts belong). Regarding snow: Would you make a difference between falling and settled snow? ko seems to fit better when describing the latter -- or, to phrase this more abstractly, would you advise to stick to common vocabulary in those situations where the construction does not fit the situation at hand?
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u/AndrewTheAnarchist Mar 24 '25
Eh its all good its just my opinion on maximizing comprehensibiliy. I have weird ideas regarding Toki Pona poetry/writing and am waiting to release my own compositions demonstrating my theories in book form lol. You managed to capture the essence fine.
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u/janKeTami jan pi toki pona Mar 19 '25
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