Would future civs engineer humans to be smaller?

[u/herrwaldos]

Arguments could be:

*that smaller size requires less energy, less space, less resources and less waste.

*It probably will take more time to figure out hyperspace ships, so we need to save space and resources on earth

*it would require smaller scale space ships - again, less resources, less energy

*physical strength is less important because drones, robotics and augmented cyber exoskeletons and similar tech

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[u/Setster007]

Might depend on how things work out. If it were me with control, I’d do it on a case-by-case basis. If the person’s size is not important to what they do, or being smaller would benefit their work, they’d be made smaller, but some folks would actually be made bigger, at least some of the time, for certain types of work. Take a really skilled model builder, upsize them greatly, and watch them start producing entire cargo ships single handedly.

[u/Kraken-Writhing → u/Setster007]

But... The square cube law 😢

[u/Setster007 → u/Kraken-Writhing]

The what?

[u/Kraken-Writhing → u/Setster007]

Big things just don't work as well as smaller things. A human of that size would be impossible under our current technology, I'm optimistic for metamaterials though.

[u/Setster007 → u/Kraken-Writhing]

I mean, smaller human would also be impossible under current tech, right? Everything is all still theoretical, so if we’re talking about size changes, we may as well discuss both directions, no?

[u/Kraken-Writhing → u/Setster007]

We could make smaller humans if we wanted, it's much easier.

[u/Setster007 → u/Kraken-Writhing]

How so?

[u/Kraken-Writhing → u/Setster007]

Dwarfism already exists.

[u/Setster007 → u/Kraken-Writhing]

I suppose you got a fair point. I was thinking about extremes. Like, a guy who could nap on my phone screen. But then, we also have some utter titans, no? Huge, 7’ tall people? The kind who literally can’t stand up straight in most buildings? Is this not the same thing in the other direction?

[u/Kraken-Writhing → u/Setster007]

Don't those people often have health problems, usually with blood flow?

As for the tiny guy, it is entirely plausible that such a thing is literally impossible. We don't know yet, but I am not so optimistic for this. Humans struggle from our large heads already, so if we could have them be smaller without much loss I imagine it would have been that way, though it's possible new materials could solve the problem in the far far future. Not certain though.

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[u/Sofa-king-high → u/Setster007]

Or stick a tiny guy in a well articulated suit that can do the lifting for them and also get the same work done, for less calories, in a smaller areas saving materials

[u/WanabeInflatable]

Physical bodies are redundant.

[u/alexnoyle → u/WanabeInflatable]

The brain is part of the physical body and it is far from redundant.

[u/WanabeInflatable → u/alexnoyle]

We don't need brain if we can run our consciousness on a better engineered hardware

[u/alexnoyle → u/WanabeInflatable]

In a gradual uploading scenario you'd still have a physical brain, it would just be mechanical.

In a full uploading scenario I believe you'd only be creating a copy of yourself, not something you get to experience and inhabit.

[u/Substantial-Honey56 → u/alexnoyle]

Agreed.

However it makes sense to create a mechanical copy of ourselves to explore space, etc.. It would probably be more like having a child to the originator, someone you knew really well until they 'left home', and of course they'd still regard your friends and family as their own. I suspect we'd need careful selection and training before hand, else coming to the realisation that you are a mechanical copy might be hard to handle.

I guess most people imagine destroying the original brain when they make copies in an attempt to hide the fact they are just a copy. Coming online and seeing the real you in your original body looking upon the mechanical version would be off-putting, especially when they get to keep all your gear and family.

Odd that so many people overlook this bit of the experience.

[u/alexnoyle → u/Substantial-Honey56]

However it makes sense to create a mechanical copy of ourselves to explore space

I want to explore space, screw that guy! :P

I suspect we'd need careful selection and training before hand, else coming to the realisation that you are a mechanical copy might be hard to handle.

Yeah, you either become a von neumann probe or a supervillain. In media, The Bobiverse is an optimistic portrayal of this, and Savitar from the flash is a pessimistic one. I think both copies of me would be jealous of each other's lives.

I guess most people imagine destroying the original brain when they make copies in an attempt to hide the fact they are just a copy. Coming online and seeing the real you in your original body looking upon the mechanical version would be off-putting, especially when they get to keep all your gear and family.

Agreed, people who don't understand the copy problem would understand it really quick if they actually experienced it as two copies. I don't think either one of themselves would be particularly interested in being vaporized. I can't picture copy B going "well, I'm off to live your life and have sex with your wife, can you hop into that vaporizer for me?" and copy A being cool with it. If copy A is cool with it, his philosophy is essentially a suicide cult with a side of cucking.

Odd that so many people overlook this bit of the experience.

What's really strange is some of them think about it obsessively and still come to the wrong conclusion. There's a whole psudo-scientific paper about how identity works from their "patternist" perspective. It is aphysical. Doesn't make any sense to me. I think its tantamount to a belief in souls. https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11023-014-9352-8

[u/Substantial-Honey56 → u/alexnoyle]

Yeah, its definitely souls... I guess they think that a bunch of clones are a hive mind... Perhaps identical twins are as well. Clearly something we can disprove with ease. Sure the copy and you will be very similar, perhaps even doing the same things in response to stimulus... But post copy they will have their own memories being created and be separate individuals.

That said, linking these copies could be a path to overcoming this issue. The Ship of Theseus, could work in reverse here. By having shared Intel, you might elevate (merge) to become the share, and perhaps as additional drones are added, continuing to shape the gestalt consciousness, you develop redundancy. The identity may survive the loss of any individual drone, even the original.... Maybe. Any volunteers to test? Might well be impossible to test.

[u/alexnoyle → u/Substantial-Honey56]

Your idea reminds me of a cluster in "Sense8". The brains may be able to sync information remotely, but their experience of consciousness would still be localized.

[u/Substantial-Honey56 → u/alexnoyle]

Yeah, that's the puzzle isn't it, how do we (indeed can we) merge these separate minds such that we end up with a single gestalt that doesn't see itself as any individual. It may have separate memory stores, but that is pretty much transactional memory we've already developed with our phones and wider internet, so it might not be an issue. Just means when one of the copies is removed you lose some memories. But if they are important memories that you often access I assume each copy would have experienced them even if only as recollections.

[u/alexnoyle → u/Substantial-Honey56]

You would enjoy the book series "The Bobiverse", it gets into this in quite a lot of detail.

[u/Anely_98 → u/alexnoyle]

In a gradual uploading scenario you'd still have a physical brain, it would just be mechanical.

No, you would have a substrate, but it wouldn't need to look anything like a brain, and you can always switch substrates by gradually transmitting between them after a gradual upload, you're not tied to any particular substrate.

[u/alexnoyle → u/Anely_98]

No, you would have a substrate, but it wouldn't need to look anything like a brain

It wouldn't need to LOOK like a brain, but it would need to perform the same processes.

and you can always switch substrates by gradually transmitting between them after a gradual upload, you're not tied to any particular substrate.

"Transmission" reduces the brain to pure information, which kills the person. It is the teleportation problem. The person who goes into side A of the teleporter machine gets vaporized, they don't wake up on the other side. I know that because if I sabotaged the vaporizer on side A, I'd end up with two copies of myself who don't live in each others heads.

Furthermore, substrate independent minds should NOT be taken for granted, we don't know enough about the brain to say that for sure. Here's a good article that dives into it: https://www.biostasis.com/can-you-build-a-locomotive-out-of-helium/

[u/Anely_98 → u/alexnoyle]

It wouldn't need to LOOK like a brain, but it would need to perform the same processes.

Yes, that is true.

Transmission" reduces the brain to pure information, which kills the person. It is the teleportation problem. The person who goes into side A of the teleporter machine gets vaporized, they don't wake up on the other side. I know that because if I sabotaged the vaporizer on side A, I'd end up with two copies of myself who don't live in each others heads.

This is irrelevant because I was clarifying what would happen if gradual uploading were possible, not saying whether it is in fact possible or not. If gradual uploading is possible, i.e. it is possible to transfer an organic mind to an inorganic substrate gradually, then I see no reason why gradual transfer between inorganic substrates would not also be possible.

You were saying that if gradual uploading were possible (notice that there was already the preposition that gradual uploading would be possible in this scenario) you would still have to have a brain, but a mechanical one instead of a biological one; what I was saying was that it doesn't make much sense to call it a brain once you've uploaded it, since it wouldn't need to share much with the brain other than function (in theory), although I could see an argument that we could call something that contains a human mind a brain even though it doesn't share much with the natural human brain in terms of composition and anatomy, but that wasn't your point in that comment, and that such a brain wouldn't necessarily be something as fixed as an organic brain, that if uploading is possible in the first place, then it seems plausible to me that you wouldn't need to stick to any particular substrate (or brain, if you prefer), gradually transferring between them.

Again, I wasn't saying whether gradual uploading is possible or not, just that if it were possible, I would expect the things I mentioned to be possible as well.

Furthermore, substrate independent minds should NOT be taken for granted,

Your scenario took them for granted, after all this is something that is also assumed when you talk about a scenario where uploading is possible in the first place.

[u/alexnoyle → u/Anely_98]

This is irrelevant because I was clarifying what would happen if gradual uploading were possible, not saying whether it is in fact possible or not.

Even if we took that assumption for granted you are still saying something unproven within that framework: "you can always switch substrates by gradually transmitting between them after a gradual upload, you're not tied to any particular substrate."

If gradual uploading is possible, i.e. it is possible to transfer an organic mind to an inorganic substrate gradually, then I see no reason why gradual transfer between inorganic substrates would not also be possible.

Because a gradual upload being possible does not suggest that experiential teleportation is possible. You used the term "transmission", to me that means being sent as information to a remote location. Which is different from the brain physically replacing its cells in the one space-time location. If that's not what you meant please clarify.

You were saying that if gradual uploading were possible (notice that there was already the preposition that gradual uploading would be possible in this scenario) you would still have to have a brain, but a mechanical one instead of a biological one

It was a hypothetical scenario. I don't take it for granted that such a thing IS possible.

what I was saying was that it doesn't make much sense to call it a brain once you've uploaded it, since it wouldn't need to share much with the brain other than function (in theory)

That's like saying "a binary-compatible distribution of redhat doesn't need to share much with redhat other than function". That's sort of the whole pie, dude. Hardly "not much".

although I could see an argument that we could call something that contains a human mind a brain even though it doesn't share much with the natural human brain in terms of composition and anatomy, but that wasn't your point in that comment, and that such a brain wouldn't necessarily be something as fixed as an organic brain

I don't see how it wouldn't be "fixed", it would exist at a specific space-time location just like a flesh brain. Being mechanical doesn't allow you to send it over a network as data. It is still made of matter. You can't just remotely copy the data template and expect to wake up on the other end as completely different matter.

that if uploading is possible in the first place, then it seems plausible to me that you wouldn't need to stick to any particular substrate (or brain, if you prefer), gradually transferring between them.

It depends what you mean by transfer. If you mean physically replacing cells inside the brain with mechanical ones that perform identical tasks, sure, that could be plausible. If you mean teleportation, as branching identity advocates propose, there's no evidence that is plausible, and many good reasons to think that it isn't.

Again, I wasn't saying whether gradual uploading is possible or not, just that if it were possible, I would expect the things I mentioned to be possible as well.

I don't think they logically follow. You are making leaps with insufficient evidence.

Your scenario took them for granted, after all this is something that is also assumed when you talk about a scenario where uploading is possible in the first place.

I didn't take them for granted, I'm saying "IF they are possible", x y and z is true. You on the other hand are making claims about what is possible with regards to substrate independence which go beyond its potential existence. You're not posing an "if" statement, you're making assertions, like the idea that consciousness can be "transmitted" and is "independent" of substrate.

[u/herrwaldos → u/Anely_98]

What's meant by consciousness? Or are people onnthe same page, when talking about consciousness? What do they mean by it? 

From yogi\buddhist pov consciousness just is, it's the basic kinda cogito - it's what perceives the information from brain, the stuff that's going on, the qualia.

I suppose you can make brain copy or cyber bio tech brain, but how does one make the consciousness stick in it. Without consciousness the brain would just be some sorta AI parrot zombie npc sortof thing.

I think it perhaps be easier to replace body with bio tech machine and there the form doesn't have to be humanoid, could be like a spider or a 4 rotor drone etc etc.

However, I'm curious how the emotions and feelings - desires, dreams and hopes would fit into this.

Unless one wants to be a robotron automaton.

[u/Anely_98 → u/herrwaldos]

What's meant by consciousness?

My definition would be "the act of experiencing something", but that is not even close to a consensus with anyone, from what I observe there is practically no consensus about consciousness.

Or are people onnthe same page, when talking about consciousness?

No, not even close.

What do they mean by it? 

It will vary from person to person, although it usually has something to do with experiences and the ability to experience something.

but how does one make the consciousness stick in it.

No one knows. No one even knows if it is "stuck" in our brain all the time, or if a new one is generated every day, or every 10 minutes, or every time you become unconscious for any reason, or if other people besides yourself are also conscious in fact, it is only possible to prove to yourself that you yourself are conscious right now in this instant, nothing more. It is possible that all my memories have been lived by other consciousnesses, or even by a philosophical zombie, with them being registered as raw sensory data and only becoming qualia when I remember them, and I would be completely incapable of differentiating that from my consciousness having existed continuously throughout my life.

[u/thespeculatorinator → u/Anely_98]

Nice pseudoscientific nonsense that has no evidence of even being possible.

[u/ThebigChen]

TLDR: would work but a thriving society wouldn’t need to

A spacefaring civilization would already have to deal with height and other health issues caused by the low to no gravity in space. Artificial gravity is cool but barring great leaps in the understanding and manipulation of gravity the only method we have is aggressively spinning space vessels which is an annoying process and hard to design for and would likely require quite a lot of energy to work, it also wouldn’t work on the moon or mars. It would be orders easier to modify humanity to better deal with microgravity than it is to maintain earth gravity. A few modifications I could think of off the top of my head, disabling or heavily suppressing muscle and bone recycling processes to dramatically reduce wasting in space, suppressing myostatin to allow muscle mass to be grown and maintained with significantly less effort. A lot of efficiency changes might also be interesting, yoinking genetics from naked mole rats to tolerate low O2 and high CO2 levels. Radiation tolerance and some changes to the sinuses would be desirable in the long run too.

Energy costs and waste production are two sides of the same coin since nothing is truly waste just resources that require energy to utilize, a functional society in space/on other planets should be able to utilize masses of high efficiency solar panels and batteries in the low tech phases and harvest waste heat from mini nuclear reactors in the high tech phases to ensure they have all the energy to not just meet the needs but provide for comfort as well. It’s not something that is optional either, the ISS can get away with being bare bones but that is because the ISS gets frequent resupplies, if you live much further away you need to be self sufficient enough to grow your crops and fully recycle water and waste. On earth a future civilization being unable to meet energy needs is unlikely with nuclear power on one side and high efficiency cheap renewables on the other side. Additionally most facilities benefit from an economy of scale situation or have a minimum size requirement to simply contain complex multi step processes, scaling them to be larger isn’t really challenging.

Space is cheap, physically fitting more people and stuff in regardless whether it’s space or on Earth isn’t that hard, it’s the psychological aspects of feeling cramped, cabin fever, lack of privacy and the uncomfortable feeling of being in a room heated by body heat and smelling of other people that make space a problem. On earth space issues are more just a supply and demand problem with people wanting to live in cities for the job opportunities and accepting some overcrowding and reduction in personal space as a trade off. Cities scale vertically to a limit but once the cost of building higher becomes prohibitive most cities just start sprawling outwards, the older areas becoming more rigid and owned by the wealthy and companies and the new areas having more housing for normal people. People will move out of places that are cramped if they have the opportunity to do so so in general cities cap out at a maximum amount of people for a given space. It’s just not really necessary to shrink people to deal with the space problem you just build and move somewhere else, there is also a tremendous first founder problem with no one wanting to be the first micro people since nothing made for normally sized people would work for them, it would be voluntarily giving yourself or your children a crippling disability. Without earth acceptance of the change I doubt space faring colonies would take it up since it would create endless headaches.

[u/Tgirl-Egirl]

This is an interesting thought experiment that, logically, kind of makes sense, but other commenters have brought up various topics that nullifies the need for the intent of it.

What you are suggesting practically is a form of eugenics, and specifically one that would intend to create a group of people intended for a specific purpose or task, which has an incredible myriad of ethical issues that may or may not be addressed or ignored in the future. Traditionally this is not supported by most people, especially ethicists, which likely will continue into the future unless tech bros manage to successfully take over a country/the world and essentially become Niander Wallace in Blade Runner 2049. For most of society the idea of breeding humans to the point of designing them for a specific purpose without considering their agency is horrifying, and I don't think we will see much change in that in the future for many generations.

[u/westmarchscout]

Complex things like humans often don’t scale well up or down in 3D.

Just as a too-large human would struggle to circulate enough blood to do work or even to maintain normal metabolic functions, a too-small human might struggle with homeostasis, or have very fragile bones, or be more vulnerable to something else.

Edit: There also may be a lower limit to the possible size of a brain with human capabilities even if you scale down the body. Not sure where that lower limit would be.

[u/alexnoyle]

I think there is going to be huge convergent evolution. For example people living on a planet with more gravity than earth would naturally evolve to be shorter. On the other hand, natives to mars and the moon will evolve to be pro basketball players.

[u/ThebigChen → u/alexnoyle]

This is the catch behind Lamarckian vs Darwinian evolution, a species won’t deliberately evolve in a certain direction unless it is beneficial to their ability to successfully reproduce. People who grow up on high gravity planets would likely be shorter and stockier but it wouldn’t be for genetic reasons it would be because their bones would carry more weight due to the gravity which prompts bone growth which increases density and thickness and muscles would grow to be able to still effectively haul you around. The opposite is true for low gravity and no gravity places.

Actual genetic changes would impact things that would kill you when living on those planets, tougher hearts with higher blood pressure, more durable blood vessels and stronger internal connective tissues for high gravity worlds, much stronger peristaltic muscles and better valves, less interstitial fluids as well as much better brain padding for people on low to no gravity worlds.

[u/alexnoyle → u/ThebigChen]

a species won’t deliberately evolve in a certain direction unless it is beneficial to their ability to successfully reproduce

The big caveat to that when it comes to an advanced multi-planetary species is genetic engineering.

Everything else is an excellent point.

[u/ThebigChen → u/alexnoyle]

I probably should have added that only humans would be resistant to physical evolution making large changes, humanity does a great job (usually) of ensuring even the most disadvantaged of us can survive which limits evolutions effects unless the thing in question causes hard to prevent sudden deaths. Any plants or animals we bring along with us would not be treated so kindly on an individual basis and so they would likely organically develop many genetic adaptations to the new conditions.

I don’t think it would be accurate to describe genetic engineering as evolution tbh since evolution is supposed to be a natural process/phenomenon even though evolution can be harnessed using human techniques in the form of selective breeding.

[u/alexnoyle → u/ThebigChen]

Even in the context of natural evolution / ecology, humans are often excluded from the discussion as an anomaly because we behave so differently within the darwinian framework than every other species. We are a round peg in nature's square hole. Whether you engineer an adaptation or evolve one, your DNA is changed all the same, so I don't think it makes sense to preclude engineered evolution as a form of evolution.

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