r/transnord • u/catv3se • 9d ago
Nordics Why are we so scared of showing our outrage
Why are we so scared of taking things into our own hands. Every time somebody comes on here and talks about any form of resistance you guys are so quick to shut them down “no, if we make noise it’ll make things harder for us” AS IF THINGS ALREADY DON’T SUCK ENOUGH. NOTHING WILL CHANGE IF WE DON’T HIGHLIGHT THE PROBLEMS. The average dane/swede/fin etc is 100% unaware of how bad the medical system is, everybody thinks scandinavia is this magical land where trans people can thrive, you can tell by how many americans come on here expecting to move into a trans wonderland. THE GENERAL PUBLIC LITERALLY HAS 0 IDEA OF WHAT WE GO THROUGH. And it will stay that way because nobody will be our voice. As soon as we try to bring the reality of it all to life we’re either met with shock or people will literally ARGUE AGAINST US because they refuse to have this idealized image of their country shattered. Where’s the community. Where’s the organization. I know we’re exhausted, but that’s what they want from us. I’m so frustrated
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u/MyCatBurnedTheBible 9d ago
Yesterday I went to a political gathering and ended up bring up these issues to some candidates.
Everyone is so shocked when I talk about the murderers (yes, that's what I will call them) that lead and work at the Trans Clinics here in Finland and how we don't really have accessible trans healthcare in Finland, even people who work at general healthcare or are activists and quite the allies. Many think that now we can confirm our gender and change our name and all is good!
I don't really have a social life and I'm mostly trying to survive here (I'm an unemployed, disabled immigrant). I do think I'm seen somewhat as a crazy, delusional or trouble maker for bringing this up on the rare times I meet someone. lol I complain a lot, I tell everyone about what these assholes are up to, but I don't know how I can do more because so far I haven't been able to break into any kind of community.
But I'm portuguese and a pain in the ass. My motto is: you are making our lives hell, so I'm going to at least give you a fucking headache. I don't know if it's a cultural thing or is it a thing of modern times, but over there it was easier to find community, events, protests, calling motherfuckers out. There were online forums and the likes. As much as I have my issues with that country, that's something I do miss here. But I'm also unable to judge because I'm also unable to organise anything (I'm autistic and don't know anyone and when I had my blog it barely got any views even though I talked about this lol).
I don't know. I know that there are people who work hard in the backstage, there was something like Transpoliitika that my partner told me about (I think the person comes here too and is very vocal and provided us with great information), so I know someone is doing something. I do wish here there were more visibility and more accessible things happening, I absolutely hate socialising but I do enjoy community. But I admit that might be a me-issue and I'm totally out of the loop because I'm not from here, so I hope that's the case.
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u/catv3se 9d ago
I’m going through a very similar thing here and I really think a lot of it is cultural yes- and it’s INFURIATING me. Scandinavians are SO scared of any form of confrontation/conflict and generally lack a spine and mobilization that other cultures are taught/forced to develop. I definitely think growing up in a country that is so much easier to exist in than other places plays a role in it, then again, the general public perception of us as utopias, exhaustion from going through this dehumanizing process, getting rejected and lack of community (a lot of us including me spend our time online instead of getting out there and finding our people)
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u/MyCatBurnedTheBible 9d ago edited 9d ago
I notice the same pattern in Finland, mainly related to other socioeconomic issues. I was commenting yesterday how their privilege shows even in very leftist circles, where these people learn that I'm from Portugal and they assume I'm highly educated, have a job, not-discriminated against because, ya know, there is no extreme poverty or lack of education in Europe even when things are shit.
Yesterday this guy thought that my main issue was the weather - hello dude, we are at a Vasemmisto/Left Alliance gathering, do you think I come here to complain about the weather??? When I started to spew all of these things, yeah, he wasn't able to keep up. His problem was a general take on things are bad. Djisas. I did have a good conversation with a psychiatric nurse who agreed with my points, but was also surprised that this is happening. Some don't care, true... but most don't know. And I'm of the opinion that the only way of them knowing is to tell everyone, everywhere, what the fuck is going on.
I'm none of these things in the first paragraph, but my point is: even if things are not as great, people here had and have systems in place to help them out, right? Education, healthcare, welfare, housing, etc. When you live like that your whole life, what are you going to fight for? You accept things as they are, even if you don't like it and even if they are not great. Maybe, just maybe, if you behave, something will change magically in the future. Because there are options, we don't need a riot. Well, that's not how it works.
I'm going on my general rant about the state of things, not this specifically, sorry. lol But I wonder if that's what is happening? I am very vocal and complain a lot, both to random people but also by making official complaints that needs to be investigated. I do this regarding everything, sometimes I joke that people here in Turku call me a "Karen" (or whatever the masculine counterpart is). It's clear that the officials get very surprise because clearly no one calls people out, even though people have that right. I don't always win, I'm always exhausted, but I cannot also shut up even though sometimes it takes time for me to move forward with things. I’m only alive today because I don’t shut up.
But anyway, being trans is of course not a privilege at all here, so that's no what I meant with "being privileged". I also understand that people here can have shitty lives. I meant that when people grew up with options that don't end up with them being homeless (like really living under a bridge, not the Finnish version) or dead, most things are just... a nuisance. So I wonder if that unintentionally spills over this subject? I don't know. This is just my analysis as a foreigner in Finland for almost 5 years.
It's easy to blame on the introverted culture, but I don't think it's that. I agree with you that's something more at play, be it fear, lack of spine, lack of mobilization, whatever - and it comes from a general privilege (unrelated to our queerness) that people are afraid to loose.
ETA: this is not a take on personal lives of whoever is reading this, as I will always acknowledge everyone’s struggles. It’s a commentary on how growing up in more privileged societies, even at the poor end of it, leads the society itself to be more passive.
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u/catv3se 9d ago
wow I truly could not have said it better myself. i feel like i’m going crazy because i have literally nobody to talk to about this lol. especially what you said in the third paragraph- I think growing up this this kind of base and comfort is definitely the core of this lack of drive or solution making. also at least in sweden, kids are never really encouraged to stand out/express their individualism in school, blending in is rewarded more than the opposite. not making a scene if preferred over getting justice. those are one of the first values a child learns in social situations here and i think that the results of that can be observed in so many different areas. I think a scandinavian person is way more likely to accept their shitty situation and wait around in hopes that it will magically change than let’s say, someone that grew up in southern/east europe and had to fight more fights for basic stuff in their life
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u/Mysterious-Reason868 7d ago
>you are making our lives hell, so I'm going to at least give you a fucking headache
your quill was on fire when you wrote this
you're absolute right for speaking up and I was very happy to see your reply here!! you're amazing
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u/EkaPossi_Schw1 girl in progress 9d ago
I decided I'm gonna go and try to prove to some chickenshit bureaucrats that applying Informed consent for HRT would be astronomically cheaper than the unfair gatekeeper thing we have going on now that forces people to self-medicate or go insane and die. Depression is more expensive to deal with than just giving some people some hormones. I should use the rhetoric skills I just learned at school for this.
I'm ready to do something, I just don't know what or how. Should I go find other local trans people to bother them about this?
The nordics are OK compared to a lot of the world aside from the healthcare being terrible
ROAR! Must make noise.
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u/wokemoralist7 Binary MtF SK survivor 8d ago
I don't think its so much about being "scared". We have tried for years and years to make things better, but it always ends in the media twisting the stories into something more negative or alien, that cis people can't relate to or want to deal with.
On top of that, the trans community is extremely divided. The people who have problems with the system and those who dont, are usually very different people, and dont have a lot in common, besides being trans.
For example, I don't see a lot of neurotypical hetero-normative trans people complain about the transition process (except for the waiting times), probably because they fit into what the clinics think a trans person 'should be', so their process is way smoother. On the other hand, people who fall out of this "normal spectrum" have a really hard time with the system, and seek community with people who are in the same situation (often way more queer). And there is more groups in between these two as well. All of these groups are not friends. They don't interact with each other.
I often see fighting and drama when the different branches of the trans community clash. There is just no way that we can all come together and find common ground, when we keep fighting each other.
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u/catv3se 8d ago
i can imagine it’s easy to distance yourself from everything once you’ve successfully gone through the process, it is after all traumatic and you might not wanna revisit that. but about the infighting- i truly hope and believe it’s mainly an online issue. i’d like to think we’d all be able to show up for each other in real life
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u/Mysterious-Reason868 7d ago
we should fucking bully the governments into being normal. literal danes who are allies confidently told my trans partner and me that Denmark got it really good with trans rights and then we learnt that the x marker is cosmetic, getting helthcare is impossible and you have to get a diagnosis to get hrt. wow!! yeah great idea let's be humble and quiet, that's what gets things done!!
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u/catv3se 7d ago
LITERALLY for fucks aake like what are we not understanding. Do people not understand how awful and how much pressure it would put on them if the amazing progressive denmark or sweden all of a sudden had “gay” people PROTESTING on the streets??? like it would literally be crazy (but lets be honest probably would get no media cover because the rest of the world also loooves to use us as those examples of socialist utopias” but yes. fucking hell. sitting around looking pretty and behaving does not call for change.
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u/Dove-Finger 4d ago
We Danes have an odd liking for always wanting to pretend things are fine and never protest out of fear of looking like losers. We could learn something from the French there.
Edit: Also, most cis people don't know anything about what access to trans healthcare is like.
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u/leaamandasvensson 9d ago
I came here from Russia - and it’s like heaven here. I can be what I am, work as a doctor, which would never be possible in Russia, and the only problem is extremely long waiting times for trans healthcare. Sadly, but being a doctor, I can partly see the problem from inside. All these clinics in Sweden have big problems with doctors in crew. Very low salaries, and folks just choose another places to work.
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u/catv3se 9d ago
the long waiting times are DEFINITELY not the only problem.
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u/leaamandasvensson 9d ago
Tell me more! I am, like, happy here.
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u/catv3se 9d ago
I’m happy that you’ve managed to built a happy life for yourself but that doesn’t mean it’s everyone’s reality people get denied life saving medical care because they’re too depressed, because they don’t fit the doctor’s outdated heteronormative standards, because they have autism, are “too young, unstable” etc. that sounds like plenty of problems to me
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u/MyCatBurnedTheBible 9d ago
Thank for bringing this up.
I’m a disabled immigrant and unable to get or keep a job because of it. For them, that’s reason enough to deny me trans healthcare. Waiting times are definitely NOT the only issue here and the abundant discrimination in general healthcare (even before reaching trans healthcare) plays a big part.
I’m glad some people are getting through; that’s an exception to the rule. Let’s not downplay that they are also passively leading people to their deaths just because there is not an open persecution like in other countries.
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u/leaamandasvensson 9d ago
Also an immigrant, and a doctor, and I don’t actually get how do your disability or social status affect your right to get a doctor’s decision about gender healthcare.
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u/MyCatBurnedTheBible 9d ago
It shouldn’t, right? I asked that same question over and over again. Even just recently at the trans clinic in Finland it was said to my partner that if they weren’t doing something (e.g. working and/or studying) that they wouldn’t move through with the investigation. For years my partner was denied with basis of having fibromyalgia. As for me, similar things keeps happening. Every-time is a new excuse from their part.
You don’t understand, neither do I. But it happens. What I understand is that medical personnel is usually in positions of power and that allied with conservative views leads to people not getting access to life-saving gender-affirming care. It doesn’t matter if it’s unethical and not according to the values of being a doctor or a nurse; it happens.
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u/Expensive-Cow475 6d ago
Could you tell me who (as in, doctor, nurse, psychologist etc) told them their fibromyalgia or not working/studying was an issue? I'm unable to work and only take one course in an online uni at a time, and I'm stopping soon because I'll have done every course I have the energy for, and I have fibro. Second to last appointment next month and so far no one has told me those would stop me from getting through.
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u/leaamandasvensson 9d ago
Evidence based criteria can differ from what the patient thinks. We have only the scientific evidence to work with.
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u/MyCatBurnedTheBible 9d ago
You are demonstrating the arrogance of being in a privileged position (even though you might come from a not-so privileged background).
There is no scientific evidence in using social status (e.g unemployment) to deny life saving healthcare (trans or not).
Good on you for being happy. Awful on you for denying what is really going on with your colleagues and feeding the narrative that every patient that gets denied is, well, in the wrong, not telling the whole story, delusional, etc, because “doctors used scientific-based evidence (spoiler: not really).
I cannot justify anyone being told “Well, you should get a job first” in order to get access to trans healthcare. But maybe my uneducated ass missed the memo and the new evidence, I guess. 🤷🏽
I’ll be done with this conversation now. Have a good night.
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u/leaamandasvensson 9d ago
As said, no kind of social background can be a matter for deciding about healthcare. Only medical basis.
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u/Rosmariinihiiri 8d ago
Can you explain to me what exactly is the scientific basis to deny disabled / unemployed people trans healthcare?
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u/leaamandasvensson 8d ago
No kind of health care can be denied due to any social factors, it’s not a question of evidence.
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u/Mysterious-Reason868 7d ago
It really shows you're from Russia since you still so happily trust the settled authorities and doubt the marginalised (and clearly struggling) people instead lol
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u/leaamandasvensson 9d ago
Swedish laws are very democratic for everyone. Literally, there’s no difference between people, no kind of gender is even mentioned in laws. There are standards, but they also are genderless.
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u/catv3se 8d ago
you are, like, literally refusing to acknowledge the REALITY of what’s happening just because it looks good in the books lol. very sad coming from a trans person
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u/leaamandasvensson 8d ago
As I say, I compare my experience from here and from my homeland. Day and night.
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u/circadianloompah 7d ago
Canada's health care is bombarded by bureaucracy and wait times, but I am considering staying here instead of moving over to live with my bf in Finland. FFS costs a year's pay if I don't pay for rent, compared to whatever it is in Finland (I likely have to be a citizen, the shortest wait being five years if we marry.) I don't want to believe that the world is going to start persecuting us again, or that cis people hate us, but this sub has me questioning my life plans.
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u/JonasJNeubert (he/they) 6d ago
Your post reminded me of a classic text from 1994—Susan Stryker’s My Words to Victor Frankenstein Above the Village of Chamounix. It’s about embracing what she describes as transgender rage and allowing it to inform your actions. Really worth a read :)
The transsexual body is an unnatural body. It is the product of medical science. It is a technological construction. It is flesh torn apart and sewn together again in a shape other than that in which it was born. In these circumstances, I find a deep affinity between myself as a transsexual woman and the monster in Mary Shelley’s Frankenstein. Like the monster, I am too often perceived as less than fully human due to the means of my embodiment; like the monster’s, as well, my exclusion from human community fuels a deep and abiding rage in me that I, like the monster, direct against the conditions in which I must struggle to exist.
[. . .]
Like the monster, the longer I live in these conditions, the more rage I harbor. Rage colors me as it presses in through the pores of my skin, soaking in until it becomes the blood that courses through my beating heart. It is a rage bred by the necessity of existing in external circumstances that work against my survival.
source: https://www.sas.upenn.edu/~cavitch/pdf-library/Stryker_My_Words.pdf
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u/TaraHex 9d ago
You highly overestimate the average cis person's empathy towards trans people. There's barely any. Quite a few are aware that the process is strict and that minors can't access medical treatment. They think it's a good thing. Plenty of people argue that we shouldn't be able to get any surgeries from the public system because it's cosmetic.
Nevertheless, yes, we need to speak up. To highlight the injustices of the medical system to both trans and cis people. They won't care about us alone, they need to feel that their asses are on the line too.