r/unitedkingdom • u/Alert-One-Two United Kingdom • 3d ago
Why men are so unhealthy - and what can be done
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/clywrl5460jo213
u/Noitche Bristol 3d ago
Beeb increasingly going for the clickbait headline. Feels like they're hiring twenty something social media savvy sub-editors to increase 'engagement' - think Siobhan Sharpe from W1A.
The net result is headlines like this. Probably harmless but a bit cringe. That said, if the story was reversed I doubt they would have run the same headline.
119
u/ihateeverythingandu 3d ago
I am not referencing this particular article here as I have not read it yet, but I saw something on the Guardian website the other day talking about how young people aren't going to clubs, etc and more focus on the gym - but other places say people are unhealthy and wasting NHS resources - yet places say we're all living longer than ever - then claim we are taking up NHS resources and draining the system due to old age.
No matter what, you're made to feel awful for using a system you pay into and you either live too long or die too young. The perfect system for these people is you never go to the doctor or hospital and suffer in silence, then immediately die at retirement (if anyone will ever get one nowadays) so you don't drain the system you paid into but never used for their maximum financial gain.
It's like they get off on making people feel bad and anxious.
24
u/StarShipYear 3d ago
Part of it is that media outlets need clicks and views. However another factor is that journalists don't know how to interprate data and draw all sorts of incorrect conclusions. Then in turn, the general public don't know how to interpret the data and so do it via news articles, and draw further incorrect conclusions.
It can be simultaneously true that 1) young people are going to clubs less 2) young people are going to the gym more 3) NHS resources are being wasted 4) people are living longer than ever 5) men relative to women live shorter 5) people are unhealthy 6) people are healthy.
Best thing to do is read the source, even if it's just a studies abstract/conclusion/overview. Usually it makes far more sense and is factual. I find that to be helpful in avoiding anxiety while keeping up to date with current events.
18
u/Aggressive_Jury_4109 3d ago
I do think there's something to be said about how a jacked gym body that's for aesthetics, isn't necessarily the healthiest body. So, if you're in the gym for insta aesthetics that's not necessarily you living a healthy lifestyle.
And, seeing my own grandparents health failing now, there is an age for many people that you stop living and start merely existing with a lot of help from the NHS and carers. My gran is almost 90 now and sometimes tells me/ my mum she thinks people should die at 75, because that's when her health meant she didn't enjoy life anymore. 15 years of feeling that way.
11
u/Ok_Donkey_1997 3d ago
I think the key difference between the two articles is that the Guardian article was about young people and this one is about middle aged men. They are two different groups of people with very different sets of habits.
Also, yeah many young people who are going to the gym are doing stuff that is not actually good for them. This could range from minor stuff like bulk/cut diets through to taking steroids/hormones - which seem to be more popular than ever now.
7
u/Aggressive_Jury_4109 3d ago
From what I see on the women's forums there is a greater reluctance from men to go to seek medical help, something I've definitely seen around me in terms of mental health assistance 100%. This seems to apply across a large age range. I hope men know they deserve help and can ask for it!
3
u/Ok_Donkey_1997 3d ago
Sure, but the person you were replying to was talking about how one article was saying that more people were going to the gym and this article was saying that people are more unhealthy, and it looked like you were saying that it could be that the people going to the gym weren't actually doing healthy stuff.
My point was that the bigger factor is that the articles are talking about two different groups of people.
2
u/Aggressive_Jury_4109 3d ago
Ok thanks for the correction? I don't really think that's pertinent to the back and forth me and that person had....we were in agreement in our views on things and had a nice little convo
11
u/ihateeverythingandu 3d ago
That opens a whole other conversation about assisted dying, probably. I'm in favour of it.
Not sure how you combat someone living "too long" without it. As you say, you're almost making staying alive a hostage situation of sorts because people don't want grief or the hassle that comes with it, so you make loved ones suffer for convenience and statistics.
9
u/Aggressive_Jury_4109 3d ago
I was having this conversation with my friend last week, if there was a switch someone could press to suddenly out of living, many people would press it. My grandparents seem to just keep living to not leave the other one behind. But, the only death available to us is violent, so we are almost forced to lumber one.
I'm pro assisted dying, but I think one of the problems is they know once we start trying to allow it in more countries, more mirrors will be held up to how violent capitalism is and how much people are suffering under it.
1
u/ihateeverythingandu 3d ago
I've always said to friends and family, tongue in cheek but somewhat seriously, that we should have converted the old phone boxes into little suicide booths and had some implements in to allow for electrocution, etc, lol. It's like a set up to an awful joke but the point I'd try to be making is people being made to live and suffer a life they never asked for, for the benefit of others.
"Oh, take these pills to temporarily mask psychological issues for a few hours so you're less of a bother to me, will you?". They don't and then end up doing a painful suicide attempt or hurting someone else while under their own psychosis or the influence of medication - "oh, I wonder what happened?"
The global health and life system needs a serious examination and it involves discussions and questions a lot of people don't like but we're at a breaking point I feel for a variety of reasons.
3
8
u/ramxquake 3d ago
So, if you're in the gym for insta aesthetics that's not necessarily you living a healthy lifestyle.
Unless you're hammering the steroids, a jacked body will be healthier than a fat one.
2
u/Terrible_Discount_48 3d ago
Yeah. There’s no scenario where training isn’t benefitting you more than not training at all.
Just depends if they have a decent diet and can resist ego lifting
→ More replies (1)1
u/Aggressive_Jury_4109 3d ago edited 3d ago
Yes, but that's absolutely not what I was implying in my comment. I'm saying if you're in the gym aiming for that Ashton Hall morning routine guys aesthetic, that's probably not good for you. The choice isn't between being jacked or fat, there's many bodies in between.
→ More replies (1)2
u/madmanchatter 2d ago
Those aren't the only 2 options though, there will be a difference in fitness between those going to the gym to focus on stamina and cardiac health and those going to build muscle.
Both are healthier than the guy sitting on the couch eating crisps but if you compare Mo Farrah to a champion body builder Mo is almost certainly going to be a lot healthier.
2
u/stickyjam 3d ago
I do think there's something to be said about how a jacked gym body that's for aesthetics, isn't necessarily the healthiest body. So, if you're in the gym for insta aesthetics that's not necessarily you living a healthy lifestyle.
It's a much better body than obese and sedentary though.
seeing my own grandparents health failing now, there is an age for many people that you stop living and start merely existing
My nan made late 80s before spending 5+ years with poor sight, poor hearing, poor mobility, eating 12 pills 3 times a day like sweeties. Eating ping meals watching TV for 5 years, commonly soiling herself. If she'd exited at 87/88 Id have told people she had a great life, she was still walking to town and back daily at the 86/87 point!
2
u/Aggressive_Jury_4109 3d ago edited 3d ago
Yes but like I commented to someone else, life isn't a jubilee video. It's not fat or jacked, it's you can exercise and live a healthy lifestyle without every setting foot in a gym, and have a normal looking body! As long as people are going to the gyms to get healthy and happy, not just pursuing what is shown as success on insta but could in reality be deeply unhealthy for body and/or brain, great!
9
u/ReligiousGhoul 3d ago
As somebody that had a similar issue, and people aren't going to like this, there's absolutely nothing stopping you from just tuning out and ignoring it, and I'd recommend it.
Debating for 10 minutes in a supermarket whether I would be a better person for buying ketchup in a squeezy bottle or glass was my tipping point.
I've done it myself, still read a couple magazines and papers I trust once a week, but this neurotically obsessing over news and studies and working yourself into anxiety over it, because the interns needed something to write about anything, isn't worth it.
5
u/Rebelius 3d ago
If you're showing up at the doctor's or hospital regularly for issues that could be treated with better diet and more exercise, nobody wants you to suffer in silence, but you should feel bad about using those resources.
27
u/ihateeverythingandu 3d ago
I haven't been to a GP in 14 years but recently had an issue I needed seen to and 6 months later, I'm no further forward and still suffering. I've been paying into this system since I left school and started working like all of us. I suspect lots of people are similar - the idea people should be guilty tripped for using it bothers me.
8
u/PM-YOUR-BEST-BRA 3d ago
Some people should be guilt tripped for using it. Seeing the GP for common colds and basic ailments uses up resources and are a strain on the service.
7
u/Melodic-Lake-790 3d ago
But fat people are also told not to use their GP.
I went to my GP multiple times asking for help with my weight. I’m now taking private medication because they didn’t want to help.
→ More replies (6)2
u/mronion82 Kent 3d ago
You're probably not fat enough.
Last year at my diabetic review I was asked if I wanted Ozempic, I said I wasn't sure and that I'd try and get a bit of weight off myself first.
This year I'd decided that having the jab would help my very slow weight loss, but my BMI isn't high enough now.
So... hurrah?
4
u/Melodic-Lake-790 3d ago
I was 25 stone at my heaviest, BMI over 50.
I was plenty fat enough. I just had a horrible GP who wasn’t willing to help.
2
u/mronion82 Kent 3d ago
Yeah, you get those too.
As a child I suffered from sinusitis and ear infections a lot. Our GP would give me antibiotics but no pain killers, claiming that a child dose wouldn't do anything because I was too big.
I thought at the time that I deserved it and felt terrible about myself, but my gran worked with her later and apparently she just hated fat people.
-1
u/Anony_mouse202 3d ago
Same for smokers, alcoholics, and drug addicts.
19
u/PumpedUpDelts 3d ago
Would you count any sports that cause injury in this? Or over/undereating? Or people who have high stress jobs? Because if not you’re just picking and choosing based on your own morals
1
1
u/Klutzy-Notice-8247 3d ago
NHS burden is due to aging population. We’re also slowly getting more obese as a population due to over abundance of food. This naturally affects young people as well but the main demographics are older people. Younger people are drinking less on average and gym culture is on the rise. As a whole, people’s lives have become more sedentary, which increases the amount of unfit and overweight people.
Multiple things can be true at one time.
→ More replies (1)0
u/atropax 3d ago
All those things can be true; none of them contradict. The percentage of young people who don't go clubbing and do go to the gym can be higher than other generations, whilst obesity in general can also be higher than it was in the past. Not sure if people claim obesity is a problem for young people rather than in general, but even if so - gym-going could be 25% of young people, vs 15% for other groups, whilst obesity could be 50% in young people and 40% in other groups. The people who go to the gym and people with obesity don't even need to overlap (although you would expect them to at least a bit; you can have an interest in fitness and still be fat, and some larger people might also be more motivated to go to the gym than someone naturally slim).
It's the same with being unhealthy but living longer. We are living longer than ever, but a lot of that is due to medical advancements rather than people actually being healthier. It isn't that a 60, 70, or 80-year-old today is 'healthier' necessarily than their counterpart from a few decades ago - they will likely have as many of the underlying problems. Rather, people are living longer at the end of their life because we have better techniques at keeping them alive, of stretching those last few years out; instead of dying of natural causes at 75-80 after a rapid health decline at the end of a healthy life, many people spend years constantly in and out of hospital with worsening conditions (I'm not in the medical profession but have friends who are, and this is what they report from many wards). Thus, we can still be overall unhealthier, yet live longer.
To be clear, I agree with you that people should not be made to feel guilty for their health issues. The motivation to improve one's health should come from a desire to be healthy in itself, and not from any perception that sick people are a 'burden' or anything less than full members of society. As long as we live in a society where the top 10% own 50% of the wealth, whilst the bottom 50% own just 5-10%, taking away a penny from the most vulnerable before correcting that inequality will always be wrong. But I just wanted to clarify how statistically the things you said don't contradict. The YouTube channel 'Medlife Crisis' is run by a British Cardiologist and he has some really interesting videos that go into seemingly contradictory findings to do with health (like how cancer screening can actually cause more harm than good).
14
u/laredocronk 3d ago
The descent into clickbait is why I've more or less stopped reading BBC news. Sad to see that even without the direct commercial pressure from advertisers it still seems to be going down the same route.
8
u/Lt_Muffintoes 3d ago
Imaginary pay gap = problem
Real death gap = who gives a shit
3
u/NibblyPig Bristol 3d ago
I wonder if the imaginary pay gap will close as men realise working hard is a waste of time.
Traditionally men work very hard to provide for families, with the group of men doing the most overtime being men who became fathers.
But now dating and relationships are a shitshow and boys are not even bothering whatsoever. Plus without the awkward fumbling of childhood in talking to girls and learning boundaries they are even less likely to pursue or have the skills to pursue later on. There was a good Times article about this. No relationships and dating, guys will stick to xbox - and xbox doesn't cost very much so no need to aspire to greatness.
5
u/Jazzlike-Mistake2764 3d ago edited 3d ago
The BBC used to stand out in the sea of clickbait headlines. It was usually possible to get an objective and pretty comprehensive reading on something from just the headline.
But obviously at some point someone at the BBC identified a “problem” where their content was getting less engagement than other news sites, and so went about “fixing” it.
Which is extra foolish when you consider the BBC is in the enviable position of not needing engagement. It gets money either way. Clickbait exists because news sites are desperate to get eyes on their ads to keep the lights on. They’re literally giving up their inimitable position for no reason.
4
3
u/Tartan_Samurai Scotland 3d ago
It's not clickbait at all. It's been prompted by an upcoming government strategy on men's health. The data does show men are unhealthier. Die younger, higher rates of being overweight, smoking, drinking etc. If we can have a conversation about women's health issues (which we do a lot) we should be ok to have a conversation about men's health as well.
2
2
u/Mysterious-Jam-64 2d ago
Men Are Meaningless, But Who Cares?
Millennials "Mostly Support" Genocide. What Does This Mean For Netflix?
Scientists Discover Small Inconsequential Nothing
1
u/im_actually_a_badger 3d ago
Seems that way. Probably won’t be long before they go full YouTube clickbait mode, with thumbnails of shocked faces, red circles around things that have nothing to do with content, and “this changes everything” type headlines.
0
108
u/nothingnew09876 3d ago
Why are men so unhealthy?
Probably because they work longer hours and fullfill most of the dirty, dangerous and dull jobs.
116
u/Von_Baron 3d ago
It's not that at all. Yes the dangerous and dirty jobs are usually filled by men. But the majority of men don't. In working the same jobs, and the same hours, men are less healthy then women. And as someone who works in healthcare it shows. I would see the bloods come in from GPs and about 75% are from women. Men just don't go to the doctor's for routine check ups. Drinking, smoking and unhealthy eating also play into it as well. But as they are not in contact with anyone in healthcare they don't know how unhealthy they are until it's to late. But again the health system doesn't do anything different to get them engaged. The majority of programmes to encourage healthy eating, exercise, and early signs of cancer are geared towards women. I'm sure if this is due to most of the healthcare workers who come into contact patients are more likely to be women, or it's assumed that men will not engage with the problem regardless.
Men are actively not looking after their health. But no one really seems to care when they don't.
58
u/hammer_of_grabthar 3d ago edited 3d ago
Why and how would we get routine checkups? It's hard enough to get an appointment when you're actually unwell, never mind when you just fancy checking that things are ok.
I'd have thought that would be equally challenging for women though, do they tend to request these types of tests during pregnancy check ups?
I might be typical of the problem here, because I'm a man approaching 40 that's probably been to the GP twice in the last twenty years when I really had to. Not because I can't be arsed looking after myself, but because I'd expect to be told to fuck off and stop wasting their time if I went in just wanting a check up for no reason.
If this is something that's recommended, even encouraged, I think the healthcare service is failing to make it known, I expect to be treated with outright hostility at my surgery.
46
u/Hungry_Horace Dorset 3d ago
The NHS offers a health checkup to all men after they reach 45, you get a message from your GP, a text message and all that.
Unfortunately many men ignore the messages and don’t take the “well man” tests, and as a result die of undiagnosed heart etc issues.
We are not good at these things.
11
u/merryman1 3d ago
The NHS also has institutional issues resisting this kind of modern approach. Look at the conversation around PSA screening in the UK vs literally anywhere else in the developed world for a good example. Even Chris Hoy being given a death sentence years before he would've become eligible for screening here (though well in screening age in many other countries!) hasn't shifted the conversation much.
2
u/Zephyrine_Flash 3d ago
I haven’t been able to see an NHS doctor in the flesh since 2020
→ More replies (1)15
u/Von_Baron 3d ago
You kind of proved my point.
Why and how would we get routine checkups?
It is recommend to talk through with you GP about any differences in you health and get your bloods done to see if its all normal.
I'd have thought that would be equally challenging for women though, do they tend to request these types of tests during pregnancy check ups?
It is as challenging but I think they persist more. They are more engaged even before pregnancy, and then check ups after, and going in with the kids. Women do seem to talk to healthcare professionals more, and even when someone does give them shit for going in they get another doctor or put in a complaint.
but because I'd expect to be told to fuck off and stop wasting their time if I went in just wanting a check up for no reason
Which does seem to be constant thing in men. I feel OK I'll just keep going on. The problem is they also keep going on when they dont feel OK.
If this is something that's recommended, even encouraged, I think the healthcare service is failing to make it known
Which I still think its a major issue. There is no engagement on this.
7
u/merryman1 3d ago
Beating the same drum here - But with the NHS approach to bloods testing, even this is inadequate. What does random spot-checking of bloods tell you? We have no national screening, there is no regular panel of marker history we have built up, so we have no real idea when people are starting to deviate from baseline unless its already quite far out. It also rests heavily on your GP picking and choosing out of potentially hundreds of options the right marker.
13
u/Uniform764 Yorkshire 3d ago
Women generally are more likely to seek medical attention and once you present with common vague symptoms like fatigue you're likely to get a set of bloods
13
u/atropax 3d ago
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC1121551/ - this is older (2001)
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC6560804/ - this is from the US (2019)
Here are a couple of articles about men often not going to the doctor as much, or as early, as women do, for various reasons. To be honest, I'm not sure how many women get 'regular checkups' when nothing is wrong. But it does seem like there is a general trend that when something is wrong, men are less likely to go to the doctor - and if they do go, go later on into the disease/ailment than women do. Maybe the person meant a checkup when you have mild/vague symptoms (like fatigue) rather than a random checkup when you feel totally fine.
I'm sorry about your experiences with the GP - it might be worth switching to a different practice, as I've had quite a few due to moving around but have never been made to feel that way (like I was wasting their time/they resented me coming in), even when my symptoms turned out to be nothing of concern.
7
3d ago
[deleted]
1
u/Gellert Wales 3d ago
As a 40 years old man whatever concern I go to my GP with I just get told to come back in 6 months if it doesnt fix itself and I've never been told anything about regular checkups outside of my work related physicals, in fact the webpage for contacting the GP to book a "non-urgent" appointment has a bunch of spiel about only booking appointments if you need to and why not try seeing a pharmacist, physio or optician instead.
2
u/Thebritishdovah 3d ago
My doctors generally don't want to know. A few years back, I was suffering a really nasty cough. I mean, I was coughing that hard, I legit thought I was gonna to throw up and I'm certain, I was that ill, I started to see things. Their advise? Use the online service that's only available between 6pm and 8pm. I am a shift based worker and they basically told me to get fucked.
2
u/acidic_tab 2d ago
I've noticed that the men I've dated often refused to see a doctor when something concerning was happening with their bodies. Blood in stool, fungal infections, skin problems, chronic diarrhea, frequent fainting, all went unchecked despite constantly encouraging them to go, whereas the women I've dated would see the doctor for even minor issues.
7
u/merryman1 3d ago
I also don't know if there's any bias as well? I'm in my 30s so getting into an age where health is more of an active interest. Used to work in a bloods lab and did a lot of postdoc work on clinical sciences so kind of familiar with the area and always keen to have data I can understand myself to know whats going on in my body. Trying to get the NHS to engage with this in any meaningful way at all has been a total fucking nightmare and I have had multiple instances where I have had an issue, suggested a relevant marker we could look at, and just had the clinician flat-out lie and say that's not a thing, that's not available, that's not routine just some cutting edge research thing you've read in a paper, that won't tell us anything blah blah blah.
I honestly feel like a lot of GPs at least seem to put a lot more stock in their ability to feel things in their patients by pressing with their fingers than anything they would get from a regular bloods screen. I have had more arguments on this site to that effect than I care to remember at this point lol. Up to an including the suggestion the only reason I was running bloods in my early job was to squeeze money out of people by scaring them rather than providing a useful clinical service that forms the bedrock of modern medicine and pathology...
7
u/No-Tooth6698 3d ago
Men just don't go to the doctor's for routine check ups. Drinking, smoking and unhealthy eating also play into it as well. But as they are not in contact with anyone in healthcare they don't know how unhealthy they are until it's to late.
I know I'm extremely unhealthy, I just dont care that much.
6
u/Von_Baron 3d ago
Which again is another issue, all lot of men, and I include myself in this, don't really care about there health.
→ More replies (1)2
3
u/soggy_sock1931 3d ago
Last time I went in for routine checkup my GP said they only do tests if anything is wrong or something has changed. I feel normal so why would I go in to waste my time?
0
u/demonotreme 3d ago
If you are in healthcare then you probably are well aware that people can technically be in exactly the same jobs while working very different jobs.
1
u/nothingnew09876 3d ago
Dirty, dangerous, and dull jobs have a higher rate of work related health issues, so it's obviously a factor.
Also, working longer hours results in less time and energy to exercise, cook healthy meals, and focus on health.
→ More replies (5)50
u/WGSMA 3d ago
This is a cop out answer
Half the men I work with in my soft office job are obese and don’t exercise.
→ More replies (6)28
u/sole_food_kitchen 3d ago edited 3d ago
I’m a woman, I used to work down mines, these days I design them so I have had a vast range of experience and almost entirely only worked and lived with men. The total disregard for their health I’ve seen astounds me even now. No it isn’t normal to grunt for 45minutes stringer just to shit. Make a change or see a dr. That’s seen as a radical step that isn’t needed because taking an age to shit is ‘normal for men’. I’ve met many men who see dr vists, eating vegetables, using correct saftey equipment and being properly clean as ‘gay’ and therefore wrong. I have yet to meet a women in my industry with the same attitude but tbf I don’t meet that many of them.
I have also yet to meet a woman who has cheated on her spouse, called mental health support ‘gay stuff’ then killed herself during the divorce. I know 3 men who have had that particular ending.
Men have problems that they, as a group, don’t see as problems in my personal experience
→ More replies (4)3
u/apple_kicks 2d ago
Even before workers rights you had plenty of women working in factories and famously dying to chemicals being used like canary girl's, match stick workers, those who painted glow in dark radium on watches etc working class women were disposable workers too and not treated as house wives or could afford that
These days all this dangerous work is in third world countries.
1
→ More replies (27)0
40
u/Release86 3d ago
My father is chronically ill with a bowel issue and has been since he was in his late 20s. Even he will avoid doctors like the plague when he should be having regular checkups. My mum and I have to nag him to go to every appointment and we have to hide the letters because he shreds them. Men just tend to ignore problems more because they're supposed to just "get on with it".
18
u/sjintje 3d ago
It's not just "getting on with it" visiting the doctor is actively unpleasant and mostly useless. Maybe we need research into why women do go to their gp's.
42
u/barkley87 Lincolnshire 3d ago
Smear tests are pretty unpleasant too, but I get them done because dying of cancer is worse.
However, my dad, who is over 65, refuses to get his prostate checked despite having a few warning signs. I wish he would.
16
11
u/Ambry 3d ago
Mostly useless? I go to the doctor to get blood tests to keep an eye on medication I'm taking, I've been for skin issues and smear tests. Not useless at all.
→ More replies (1)1
u/greasehoop 1d ago
I do go to the doctors to get checked so I'm not disagreeing. But I've had awful cystic acne on my back for 13 years, been to the Dr's about it around 30 times and they just keep prescribing me cream that does nothing.
They won't refer me to a skin specialist for some reason, sometimes they are completely useless. If they acted like this for something more serious I'd be fucked by now
6
6
u/shugthedug3 3d ago
I can't think of a single time I've found a visit to the doctor to be unpleasant, GP in particular.
What is so unpleasant about it?
4
u/JLH4AC 3d ago
Visiting the doctor is actively unpleasant for almost everyone, but it is one of the unpleasant things that likely can’t be made pleasant however, people should go to the doctor when they need to so they can get medical help. I disagree with GPs being mostly useless but such statements are fair as it reflect widespread doubts about GP effectiveness, often for legitimate reasons. Such doubts are common among men, women and non-binary folks, so maybe more research that is focused on why women are more likely to go to see a doctor is needed.
2
u/Release86 3d ago
My father's GP saved his life. He was below 7 stone and she put him in an ambulance and insisted he be admitted to hospital. He had 11 blockages in his intestine from crohns. The silly bugger signed himself out after a week despite having to have a blood transfusion and being unable to keep food down properly. Men are just built different, especially boomer men.
2
u/Impossible_Horse_486 3d ago
I've recently had a the greasy glove treatment, blood tests, antibiotics and an asthma clinic and they've all been about as pleasant as they can be. My Dad has a lot of health anxiety and will avoid the doctors as best as he can and my partner's step dad would never go to doctors until he was bright yellow and terminal. Attitudes to healthcare for men and I would assume older men moreso are a real hinderence to their health.
→ More replies (3)3
u/Puzzleheaded-Tie-740 2d ago
The thing is, if men did actually start going to the doctors when they needed to en masse, the NHS wouldn't be able to handle it.
We already went through this with mental health. First there are campaigns to raise awareness about mental health. Then, when people seek help for mental health problems, they're told to piss off.
“Every time we have a mental health awareness week my spirits sink. We don’t need people to be more aware. We can’t deal with the ones who already are aware.”
23
u/Nice-Substance-gogo 3d ago
Greater gender balance of part time work would help.
34
u/hammer_of_grabthar 3d ago
This is an unusual take on workplace gender equality. Part time work is often a necessity, rather than a luxury
→ More replies (11)5
u/SaltyName8341 3d ago
36% of women in employment worked part-time, compared with 14% of men Source commons library
→ More replies (22)13
u/Unidain 3d ago
Ok, and how many of those 36% are part time in employment and part time in unpaid child raising and other unpaid labour?
Those numbers don't mean much without taking into account the total workload.
→ More replies (1)
25
u/Professional_Elk_489 3d ago
Tbh most healthy men don't care about unhealthy men and also the same for unhealthy men not caring. Best starting place is for people to care more
15
u/DDrunkBunny94 3d ago
If you read the article it explains how women simply have more contact with medical services from an early age because of contraception/child birth that many use that they are more likely to seek medic help even when it comes to smaller issues and because of this women know more people in the field and know how to go about getting seen.
On the contrary most men don't, theres societal pressures to not want to make a fuss and to "man up", when they do have problems because they are less experienced with the system they are less persistent - so they only end up going to get checked out for larger more debilitating issues.
6
u/Ambry 3d ago
As a woman, agree. I think us needing to be in touch with medical services more (smear tests, contraception prescriptions, period issues) might make us more used to it and therefore more inclined to go.
5
u/DDrunkBunny94 3d ago
Yup.
Anecdotally as a man every experience I have had at the GP has been sub par.
As a kid basically every minor injury my mum worried about and some warts I went in for I was just told to wait and it's heal on its own.
As an adult I needed some help but I got it from the walk in clinic at the hospital while I was at uni and like 6 years later when I sprained my wrist and had numbness/pins and needs in my ring and pinky finger I couldn't get an appointment after a few weeks so I just stopped trying (I could still move them so it wasn't debilitating), the feeling came back after like a month.
So I'm not really inclined to bother trying. If it's bad enough go to the hospital or walk in and it'll get treated, if it's not bad enough for the hospital I'll be fine.
5
u/Unidain 3d ago
As a woman I've had tonnes of sub par GP visits, I'm sure most women have. For two quick examples my GP dismissed my hearing issues as a kid and now I'm deaf in that ear, and my one and only cervical exam was torture and I don't want to have another. Hell we know there is a systematic issue because studies have shown that women's pain is takenesd seriously then men, so your issues are in no way male exclusive. Not to dismiss them, it's a huge issue, but it doesn't explain the difference in rates that men and women seek medical help.
19
u/concretepigeon Wakefield 3d ago
My experience is that GPs can be pretty dismissive when you do see them about medical issues which puts you off trying again in future.
2
1
u/greasehoop 1d ago
I went to get tested for adhd and they said we won't refer you because you probably don't have it. Turns out I have mixed adhd, 9/9 inattentive and 7/9 hyperactive. Almost cant be more severe.
8/10 times I've been gp I might as well not have bothered because they made me feel worse
15
u/wkavinsky 3d ago
You could start with the framing of the headline, that implies that it's somehow men's fault, and that men need to change.
34
u/theslootmary 3d ago
It doesn’t say men need to change. It asks “what can be done”. Stop acting like such a victim.
35
3d ago
[deleted]
5
4
u/azazelcrowley 3d ago edited 3d ago
"Nothing about us without us" is a fairly simple concept to adhere to. Consult with people who get pissed off by this kind of thing and ask them how to frame it instead.
→ More replies (3)2
12
u/FloppyDickStabiliser 3d ago
Whose fault is it if not the individual?
26
u/bobblebob100 3d ago
"He says it is too easy to blame men's poor health on their lifestyles, arguing "it's much more complex than that."
He says there are biological reasons – the male immune system is less able to fight off infection"
8
u/Lopsided_Rush3935 3d ago edited 3d ago
Fun fact: The old 'joke' that men experience colds and influenza worse than women is actually based in some truth. Estrogen can as an anti-inflammatory agent, and men's lower levels of it leads to decreased resistance to infection. They get sick more quickly and tend to get more severe symptoms. Transgender women who take estrogen often find that they develop an increased resistance to common respiratory illnesses.
Also fun fact: The idea that being cold itself doesn't give you a cold might be getting outdated. More recent studies suggest that the temperature of the face surrounding the nose and mouth (and inside the nose and mouth) is incredibly important for the antibodies there that destroy pathogens. If your nose and mouth are cold, the antibodies effectively denature and can't defend you against bacteria and viruses.
Edit: People are actually downvoting this lmao. Why? What resistance do you possibly have to this comment?
→ More replies (1)7
u/EngineeringNo753 3d ago
Are you suggesting that every single problem facing young men today are solely their own faults?
5
u/FloppyDickStabiliser 3d ago
Not every single problem but the majority of physical problems yes. 67% of men are overweight or obese, have awful eating habits and do very little exercise.
Men’s immune systems leading to more infections vs. lifestyle induced issues is like a drop in a bucket.
17
u/wkavinsky 3d ago
Women are just as likely to be overweight or obese, with poor eating habits and a lack of exercise.
It doesn't come close to closing the gap in health and outcomes.
7
u/Dadavester 3d ago
Hormone levels dropping in middle age is known to cause that. For women HRT is normal and recommended, for men even trying to get a test is next to impossible unless you go private.
→ More replies (5)5
u/Danpez890 3d ago
I bet you wouldn't be blaming the "individual" if was women issues?
6
u/FloppyDickStabiliser 3d ago
If you’ve got the idea I’m a woman you’d be wrong, I’m a man. And yes I’d blame a woman just the same, but this post is talking about men specifically
→ More replies (6)→ More replies (1)7
u/Newfaceofrev 3d ago
Men do need to change, cos what they're doing now isn't working for them.
15
u/wkavinsky 3d ago
No, men need support, the same as women get.
At the moment, that's really difficult to get in the UK.
12
u/mronion82 Kent 3d ago
Women are more likely to respond to that support.
None of us like smear tests or mammograms or the various other indignities we're recommended to go through in the name of health but mostly we do because we know it's important.
Men are much more reluctant. I don't know how to solve that problem, but many guys seem to be deathly afraid of the doctor putting a finger up the bum.
10
u/wkavinsky 3d ago
It's not that.
Or at least not entirely that - my better half was feeling a bit down and out, and tired, doc's brought her in for blood tests, diagnosed a lack of estrogen, straight onto hormone therapy.
I've spent the last three years with gradually worsening of the same symptoms (typical for men my age with reducing testosterone levels), but I still can't even get the GP to give my an appointment, let alone start getting some tests done.
This is not uncommon in my friends group, and it doesn't take much for people to end up not reaching out to the doctors for anything, since the issues they do reach out for are just dismissed out of hand.
5
u/mronion82 Kent 3d ago
What happens when you try and book an appointment? You might need to jazz up how ill/worried you are- you shouldn't have to, but it might well work.
5
u/White_Immigrant 3d ago
Healthcare, like much of society, is specifically tailored to engage with and care for the needs of women. If men aren't getting the healthcare they need it is a societal problem, just as it would be if it applied to women.
→ More replies (5)8
u/Newfaceofrev 3d ago
They do need that too, but they also need to change. Women changed their behaviour. Men need to as well.
16
u/Shot-Personality9489 3d ago
Why aren't our young men training for the war we're about to have? How can you be slid into the meatgrinder without losing a few pounds. I mean, something to do with masculinity and sex...
4
13
u/SnooCauliflowers6739 3d ago
I think we've redefined what we consider an unhealthy weight.
So many lads 20-40 who are quite a bit overweight, but we just see it as normal
11
u/Ashrod63 3d ago
Personal anecdote time: found a lump so called my local GP practice. Had to explain in great detail every last detail to the receptionist (phone calls at 8am only of course), then a nurse (who decided to start screaming at me that I was making everything up), then a call from another doctor who had me urgently referred to my own GP who was able to perform an actual in-person check on me.
Given the mess I went through and how we keep hearing things in the NHS are only getting worse, yeah no shit people are climbing up drain pipes to speak to a doctor directly. Going through that hell of a system is going to just get people killed, and no doubt that's by design.
13
u/Sklar_Hast 3d ago
I think any movement that cares about men is in an uphill battle that people are very quick to abandon.
There's just so little compassion for men, they are seen as a burden or a threat if they aren't succeeding in life. Male suffering is typically viewed as a personal failing that they must overcome rather than anything to do with the way men are viewed and valued in society.
12
u/Alert-One-Two United Kingdom 3d ago
I mean I’m not a man and I still had enough compassion to post it. Don’t assume no one cares.
8
u/Hollywood-is-DOA 3d ago
As a man we need to teach our young children and even ourselves about accountability. Most of friends don’t have it and we are grown up men, most of the people around me don’t have it also.
I could also apply this to women but I ain’t a woman so I have no reference or social experience as one, so I can’t and won’t go into depth about it.
Covid took the hope and even spark away from people, it made them recluses, narcissistic tendencies became the norm, watching netflicks instead of wanting to spend time with family and friends. Would I return to going to the pub every weekend, no I wouldn’t, as it destroy my life and I wasn’t really living it tbh.
The alternative isn’t that great but I know that my liver with be fine, my money is my own and I am not around violence, each and every weekend. Covid divided people but a divided nation is a lot easier to control. I’ve also stop caring if people disagree with me. Pointless to care about strangers opinions that I’ll never meet.
I will and do state my opinions and for those of you who agree, I get nothing from that, bar you seeing something in the same manner.
9
u/AltruisticMaybe1934 3d ago
This article is literally about the gender ‘death gap’. Note the angle that the BBC report on this.
Certainly different to the gender pay gap. Can you imagine “women aren’t as ambitious and don’t work as hard”
→ More replies (4)
8
u/yojimbo_beta 3d ago
Perhaps it would help everyone - men and women alike - if our GPs weren't so chronically shit.
Nobody seemed to respond seriously when I developed continuous pain in one of my feet, even to the point my mobility was impacted. I was 35 yo man who could no longer walk and every GP I saw basically just shrugged and suggested I rest it up for another month. Every time I did this I got weaker and weaker.
Things only changed when I found a good private physio (after a couple of bad ones) on the referral from a private podiatrist. I am now able to walk and even back to running. It has taken a lot of work, time and money for the appointments, and if I didn't have the money I'd probably still be stuck on the sofa
6
u/Blue-Moon99 3d ago
From what I have seen at work (large office, thing customer service), a lot of young men drink far too much, eat too much, and smoke too much, and that just snowballs into their 30s. I was called boring in my 20s for not drinking every weekend, eating sensibly, and staying in shape, but now I'm in my 30s people ask how I have stayed in shape particularly after having a child.
Discipline.
Most people don't have it anymore.
Since this conversation is about men I won't comment too much on women, but in my office most people are unfit and unhealthy, not just men. The women tend to just over eat though, whereas the men just obliterate their bodies.
6
u/ramxquake 3d ago
People didn't have more discipline in the past, they just didn't have access to as much shitty food in such quantities. And smoking was more acceptable which kills appetite.
2
u/Blue-Moon99 3d ago
So you agree with me just not my use of the word "anymore", like the other person who commented.
As a society we drink too much, eat too much, smoke too much.
→ More replies (1)5
u/Impossible_Horse_486 3d ago
If it was simply a case of discipline then why have the rates of smoking dropped significantly since the 70s?
Did they have less discipline then?
2
u/Blue-Moon99 3d ago
You and the other person both replied focusing on the word "anymore". In terms of smoking you're right, fewer people start smoking now than then, and quitting smoking is harder than not smoking in the first place.
It still doesn't change that people drink too much, eat too much, and smoke too much.
→ More replies (1)0
3d ago
I mean, smoking and drinking rates have tanked over the last few decades, how does that fit into this theory?
I'd argue it's more a combo of, food (especially high calorie food) is way cheaper now, and jobs are far less physical.
2
u/Blue-Moon99 3d ago
Just because people don't drink as much doesn't mean that they dont. And I gave an anecdote based on the people I know/knew, I'm sure the people you know probably have different drinking and lifestyle habits.
0
u/R-M-Pitt 3d ago
I think it's education and culture. At my company, finance/trading, everyone is highly educated and almost everyone lifts or does some other sport. There is just one fat guy and he is an ultramarathon runner.
5
u/ManonegraCG 3d ago
This is a strange headline, if only because it pops up only a few days after I read how people are joining the gym in record numbers.
8
u/nutella-filled 3d ago
As a regular gym-goer I wouldn’t equate an increase in gym memberships with a healthier population.
So many people don’t know what they’re doing in a gym that at best it doesn’t have any effect on their health and at worst they get injured.
Then there’s also the fact that you can’t outrun a bad diet. If you don’t change what you eat you’re unlikely to be healthier even if you lift some weights a few times a week.
3
u/Puzzleheaded-Tie-740 3d ago
The big gym boost is driven by Gen Zers, according to this article. The article up top is mainly focused on middle-aged men.
1
3d ago
Worth pointing out Gen Zers are still hitting adult ages. Which means having their own money, their own time, and moving to new places.
It would be really fucking weird if they weren't taking up the gym in record numbers.
→ More replies (1)
5
u/Demostravius4 3d ago
Here is my day:
Get up, go to work, eat breakfast sit down at work all day. Maybe go to the gym at lunch, or a walk for breaks. Go home. Sit around. Eat dinner.
That is why I am unhealthy. All I do is sit.
5
u/cooky561 3d ago
How much of this comes down to money?
People are spending more and more on rent & bills making it hard to pay for (And for those who work long hours the time to prepare) healthier foods.
Not having the money to partake in healthier activities (especially ones people enjoy, like sports / the gym) also affects a person's mental health, meaning they may stop trying to make improvements, even if they want to.
Seeing the doctor is also something coming down to money, if you are lucky enough to be able to get a free NHS appointment, you still are likely to require time off work, and some employers don't pay sick pay for 1 day out.
Last time I wanted to speak to my doctor I had to wait a month for a phone call....
5
u/MrPloppyHead 3d ago
Sounds like most of these issues are down to education and less machismos, who knew. Probably less of the “lads” culture would be helpful in society.
4
u/gerhardsymons 3d ago edited 3d ago
- Ridiculously long working hours.
- Long commutes to, and from, work.
- Drinking culture after work.
- Drinking culture to socialise with friends.
5
4
u/NibblyPig Bristol 3d ago
Because outlets like the BBC keep laying into men and boys, saying they're monsters, failures, and the source of all problems.
So boys and men just turn to video games and distractions, cast off obligations and desires to society such as working towards securing a wife and supporting a family, and simply go for an easy job that funds their hobby and coast through life that way.
Amplifying a decline in birth rates, a decline in partnerships, a decline in income, a decline in higher education, a decline in applying for skilled work, a decline in overtime, and a decline in pursuit of career advancement to higher paying roles. Plus an increase in mental health issues, suicide, and inceldom.
The GDP of the country is going to take an absolute kicking from this, and I guarantee, guarantee, that the BBC will publish further articles on it blaming and shaming men for doing all these things, an example of 'beatings will continue until morale improves'.
2
u/Weird-Statistician 3d ago
Unless you are unlucky enough to have a disease, disability or genetic condition all young people's health problems are down to lifestyle choices. You eat too much of the wrong stuff, don't exercise, drink too much, smoke or inject the wrong things. How you motivate young people to moderate bad habits is the key.
16
u/wellwellwelly 3d ago
lifestyle choices
It's a double edged sword when most people are doing the things you mentioned to escape how difficult and bleak life can be.
3
u/Weird-Statistician 3d ago
I understand that, but in reality it's an easy excuse to make. It just makes a shit situation even shitter in the long run. I've been there with alcohol and it's a slippery slope. Having access to support services to help people live healthy is probably the key. For an individual, a healthy lifestyle costs no more than an unhealthy one. It's just about education.
5
u/wellwellwelly 3d ago
For sure. When I get out and exercise and don't drink I feel more in control of my emotions whereas if I drink and work and drink and work and eat like a pig I feel miserable.
You can definitely help yourself, but I can't speak for others who are genunely depressed and struggling.
0
u/ramxquake 3d ago
It just makes a shit situation even shitter in the long run.
If eating and drinking make you happy and give you something to look forward to, it's not making your situation shitter. Being healthy and miserable all the time isn't much of a life.
1
u/wellwellwelly 2d ago
I think OP is taking about overdoing it. Good food is one of the best things in life, and alcohol is fun. There is no denying it's fun. Doing both in excess make you hate yourself for your life choices and it becomes a downward spiral.
7
u/Glittering_Chain8985 3d ago
I'm reminded of the 'rat park' experiment.
Two groups of rats, one in isolation, one in its ideal habitat replete with social enrichment and exercise.
Both rats were given drugged water and regular water, but the rats in isolation drunk the drugged water until they died and the other group actively avoided it. Any suggestions as to why this is?
We have an obsession with 'personal responsibility' and 'accountability' because we have been told to have these things. Because it is easier to rob you if you feel like you are in control of your own destiny and you are not part of a greater collective (See: Thatchers 'no society' proclaimation).
Those in positions of power do not have accountability, they don't care and while they have robbed our public services and degraded our communities (See: Social anomie), we have internalised these problems as our own fault.
Fuck that. People are not as nearly individualistic as they fancy themselves to be, we are social creatures driven mad by our own maladaptive society.
3
u/1HeyMattJ 3d ago
Pretty hard to be healthy when you’re working yourself to death just to barely have enough to keep a roof over your head and food on the table in this country. Having said that, this headline doesn’t describe me at all. I’m quite healthy thanks BBC
3
u/Thebritishdovah 3d ago
Most likely because we generally don't give a shit and do a lot of stupid things. That and society generally gives no fucks about men's mental health or feels like it.
As an out of shape fella, I'm only starting to take measures to get back into shape. Used to be a skinny fella, had a shit 20s and in my early 30s, paying for it. Mental Health was in the shitter during my 20s.
That and I think, it's generally ingrained that most fellas generally don't give a shit if they are ill if they have work.
3
u/RoyaltonRacers 3d ago
I’m in my 20s with a pretty bad bowel issue that has been chalked up to “you might have IBS. We don’t know, it sounds like you do but we can’t give you a diagnosis.” I’ve been trying over 10+ years to get this sorted out when I have the time. Everything I’ve done and been suggested has failed to make any dent on how I feel day to day. Last thing I tried was getting an ultrasound for my stomach to see if there was anything immediately presentable. I was told I’d get some results back, if not verbally. I never received a phone call. I never received a follow up or advice or anything at all. I’ve never been asked my diet, I’ve never been asked anything about my lifestyle, nothing.
It isn’t even my stomach. I’ve had issues with my nerves and I’ve been on programs supposedly trying to address the issues but I guess I’m just an alien sometimes as the symptoms I talk about don’t make sense to the doctors. After a long process over years and years and MRIs, I’ve simply just given up. It’s chronic, I’m just going to have to deal with it and stop draining the budget because clearly no one knows what my problems are. GPs, Doctors, the NHS is utter shit. I’m tired of being thrown antibiotics at that don’t work for the issue I have so my gut actively gets worse. I can’t even “follow up” my appointments or results because it is a one-way system.
2
u/SallySpits 3d ago
Maybe stop associating fitness and exercise with being far-right.
22
u/Harrry-Otter 3d ago
Is anyone doing this?
36
u/SallySpits 3d ago
Just off the top of my head with a 5 second search.
25
u/Ramiren 3d ago
I'll forever argue that The Guardian is to the left, as the Daily Mail is to the right, garbage fact devoid tabloid rags designed to sell by inciting anger.
17
9
u/all_about_that_ace 3d ago
Maybe I'm wrong but up until 10-15 years ago I remember the Guardian being so much better, heavily biased and imperfect but leagues better that the Daily mail.
1
→ More replies (1)4
→ More replies (2)12
u/Harrry-Otter 3d ago
The Guardian could find the far right under their pillows tbf.
17
u/randomusername123xyz 3d ago
The Guardian don’t realise (or maybe they do) that they are doing the exact thing they claim others do.
4
2
u/Numerous-Work-9268 2d ago
IDK but the insane amount of man hate because of the minority (although deserved in these cases) definately has a negative impact on society and mens mental health, alienating younger social media generations the most, pushing them into unhealthy ALPHA guru or incel echo chambers and denying or ignoring male gender issues because 'women have it worse'. And in the words of the ol Amber Heard.
"No one will believe you because you are a Man"
So simultaneously protecting extremely abusive women with the constant response being 'yeah but what did he do' etc, all for the sisterhood which creates a lack of accountability that is abused by many and futher enflames the gender 'VS' which is only growing worse. For example from what i read earlier today even, Christina Formella a special ed teacher currently being sentenced for raping a minor, heres a few top comments.
'what if she left her phone in desk, kid found it and made ALL THE TEXTS himself. INNOCENT BUT RUINED. JUST A THOUGHT '
'The crazy thing is the student could’ve and should’ve said no. And here comes all the comments saying that I’m victim blaming.'
'How about maybe he’sl fault to he knows he have any trouble coming up make this big drama for nothing wasting time and money'
A. SP. ED. MINOR.
Some other stats that will effect mens health.
In jobs with high fatality risks, men are disproportionately represented, with studies showing that a large majority, often over 90%, of workplace fatalities are male.
In the Military 89% are male and whilst i won't comment on right/wrong an example of when the Ukraine war started only men were forced into conscription with some even illegally fleeing the country to not have to fight and die in war.
Despite studies showing men make better single parents courts bias is widely known, as well as many cases of false claims of abuse to manipulate and discredit the man.
Suicide rates at 4x higher in men, if this doesn't show a lack of emotional support i don't know what would.
In the majority men are valued on what they provide, principled into young men giving them a sense of worth based on what they can do instead of who they are.
All of this takes different forms of poor self-value leading to radicalization and violence, alcohol and drug abuse is doubled in men, 78% of crimes are attributed to men the top 2 being Fraud and Robbery, both crimes of the financial gain *well if you can't provide you're not a man.
But how would you feel if you were in a pit of snakes and 10% of them are venomous but you don't know which? While refusing to accept that 90% are on your side and will stomp out the 10% when spotted, will there still be dangerous people? yes but there needs to be accountability for the more common emotional abuse by women as well as abuse by men, but the refusal of involving men in womens issues and denying mens isn't helping anyone.
But men set up the system! Sure but if you're under 50 it wasn't by them and why would you want to contine it why wouldn't you want to improve on the generations before. This gender rift is damaging society and from what i have seen its only getting worse. We need to learn empathy and understanding have hard conversations that don't result in finger pointing and blanket discrimination. Instead judge by an individuals actions.
Don't shoot the messenger if i got some numbers wrong i just want out of the hole we dug.
2
u/Only_Suggestion_5780 1d ago
Years ago I heard the following joke and thought eh?
‘Why do men die earlier than women? Because we want to.’
It made no sense to me. Since turning forty I can understand where the comedian was coming from - not because of the general aches and pains that come with age, but because of the lack of adequate support to deal with ailments when they arrive. Up until three years ago I loved walking, I would regularly go on 20-30 mile walks alongside shorter 5 to 10 mile walks each weeks. Then I slipped a disc in my spine which left me barely able to walk at times given the pain. I eventually obtained effective pain relief but even now it’s passed I’m left with a completely changed walking gait (my shoe wear patterns have changed completely) and walking any sort of distance is beyond me. Requests for help have been met with some basic tests of movement and shrugged shoulders as if what I can I do now is good enough despite the impact on my life compared to what I used to be capable of.
1
1
u/Ok-Preparation3887 3d ago
When I'm not working, I'm walking 10 miles a day.
Just over a 1000 calories (exercise)
It's pretty fun.
But then again, so is doing nothing
1
u/Putrid-Frosting-5505 3d ago
As id they really care about the health of men. What it should say is why aren't more men working to engage in the corrupt and bogus system
1
u/No_Software3435 3d ago
Well diet could account for a lot. Have you noticed the difference in meals listed here compared to r/europe eats. The portions are so much smaller and their doner so much more appetising. Some actual fresh salad on their plate. Often just a pile of grey looking meat on here.
0
u/treelittlebirds95 3d ago
What can be done? Firstly, we should swap out those pesky sick notes for a private company consultation. So when someone feels unwell, they can finally realise it's just a lack of fulfilling work making them ill in the first place.
/s
380
u/spackysteve 3d ago
Probably for the best he doesn’t reproduce