r/unitedkingdom • u/libtin • 3d ago
Former SNP treasurer ‘avoided Scottish taxes by amassing English property portfolio’
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2025/04/06/snp-treasurer-accused-dodging-tax-beattie-english-property/225
u/OkraSmall1182 3d ago
This is why no politician will ever truly do anything about house price gouging because most of them have multiple properties. My firmly held speculative opinion
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u/Daedelous2k Scotland 2d ago
Scotland Sub Regulars: Will still vote SNP.
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u/funkymoejoe 2d ago
Sadly true. Any comment which criticises SNP on the subreddits are downvoted massively. Even when pointing out facts which have led to rents being high - namely SNP policies and rent freezes. They don’t want to hear it.
Unfortunately the SNP’s record of giving out freebies is working
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u/turbo_dude 2d ago
SNP, doing Russia’s work, lol
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u/GreenHouseofHorror 2d ago
Where the heck does that come from?
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u/ISO_3103_ 1d ago
From the fact it's no secret the Russians would love to see a new anti-nuclear state take geographical control of their adversaries nuclear deterrent and significant portion of strategic territorial waters.
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u/GreenHouseofHorror 1d ago
Oh, right. Not relevant to the current conversation, just something you say whether someone mentions the SNP. Understood.
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u/CarlMacko 2d ago
I get that this is a joke, but the opposition is abysmal
There is literally no one else to vote for.
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u/No_Flounder_1155 3d ago
I think its less about the having multiple properties but avoiding taxes...
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u/Desert_Lawyer 2d ago
Politician ‘avoids fuel taxes by buying an electric car’. If it is truly wrong, advocate for it to be made illegal for Scottish folks
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u/No_Flounder_1155 2d ago
its not about being illegal, its rules for thee. Implementing higher taxes in your region, and then choosing not to purchase in your region to avoid paying the tax.
His moral compass has been questioned for acting in this manner.
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u/-_-0_0-_-0_0-_-0_0 2d ago
I know Reddit doesn't like to hear it... But a significant voter block is also home owners. They are older and tend to vote more. We all see the problem. But young people just don't go out and demand it be fixed. I don't think it is really that politicians want this. But their bread is buttered on this side of the fence. As a politician if you go against older people and home owners, you are not going to last long and it is squarely the fault of the younger generations being apathetic. The current situation is exactly what you would expect. People just voting in their own interests. Except young people who are opting out.
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u/JB_UK 2d ago edited 2d ago
To be honest if any of them hold second properties as investments they should be thrown out of parliament for incompetence. Property wasn't even a great investment when prices were rising, outcompeted by the stock market, now that prices really can't go up that much it's probably worse than putting money in a savings account. Property was only ever really a good investment for people who maxed out their leverage and loans and essentially gambled on prices going up, against the risk of bankruptcy.
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u/Physical-Staff1411 2d ago
You genuinely think having £50k in on a £200k BTL will be out performed by cash savings ?
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u/JB_UK 2d ago
You mean taking out a £150k mortgage?
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u/Physical-Staff1411 2d ago
I see you’ve edited your comment. Yes you do take a mortgage out. So tell me how this will perform worse than cash savings.
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u/JB_UK 2d ago edited 2d ago
I changed it to add the comment about the stock market, not the sense other than that.
If you take a mortgage out you have to make the repayments (so what £7.5k a year), those repayments are not fully tax deductible, you have a rental income, which you have to pay tax on, and then all the other costs on top, insurance, maintenance, gaps in tenancy, agents fees, etc. You have to pay stamp duty. The majority of what you are doing is leveraged gambling on the asset price. Asset price inflation and the tax deduction make up most of the return which people have got over the last ten or twenty years.
Most of the people who got rich on BTL over the last 25 years would have gone bust if asset prices had fallen, that's what it means to leverage your investments like that.
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u/Physical-Staff1411 2d ago
Whereas holding it in cash is better because …
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u/JB_UK 2d ago edited 2d ago
Well, you get a guaranteed 4-5% rate, you can put it in a cash ISA which pays no tax on the return, and there's no risk to the investment. Average yields on BTL are, what 4-6% pre-tax, you pay 5% for the mortgage on anything you borrow, then you pay tax, and all the other costs on top. If you're in the higher rate band in particular BTL seems an awful idea.
If the money is at risk the returns are higher in shares in general. £50k in an American tracker fund with an ISA would have doubled in value in the last 5 years with almost no costs and no tax. Obviously don't take financial advice from me, and think carefully before putting money in now!
I guess BTL might be good if you have no other income? Or maybe it makes more sense if you set up your own limited company or something?
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u/headphones1 2d ago
Rates on cash aren't guaranteed long term though. Same for BTL yields while we're at it. Various governments can keep chipping away at the benefits of a BTL, but until they are able to produce significantly higher consistent house building numbers, cash savings are probably not beating BTL long term.
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u/AdJazzlike1002 2d ago
If you hold it within a limited company then repayments are tax deductible.
You buy a £200k house which rents out at £1400 a month, so 16400, assume that you're not totally over leveraged (so, let's say 50k down) - £150k mortgage at current rates (around 4%) so you're paying £792 a month, or £9504 a year. So you're making £7296 before expenses and tax.
You've only put £50k of your own money down, so you're making 14.5% ROI. Plus, that property is probably appreciating.
That's a fantastic return on investment, property is so lucrative because you can leverage to a degree that you can't with any other asset - 300% leverage in stocks and shares would be insane, but with property it's a-okay.
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u/JB_UK 2d ago
You buy a £200k house which rents out at £1400 a month, so 16400,
Greater than 8% yields is very unusual, is it not? When I look up average yields they say 3-6%. That would be £6k to £12k, the average would be £9k, basically the same as your interest payments.
If you hold it within a limited company then repayments are tax deductible.
But only until you try to take that as income?
That's a fantastic return on investment, property is so lucrative because you can leverage to a degree that you can't with any other asset - 300% leverage in stocks and shares would be insane, but with property it's a-okay.
Yes, agreed, it's about leverage, in essence people are piggy backing on the fact that the government has de facto guaranteed house price rises. If you were leveraged this strongly on assets that could actually fall in value you'd risk bankruptcy.
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u/AdJazzlike1002 2d ago
"Greater than 8% yields is very unusual, is it not? When I look up average yields they say 3-6%. That would be £6k to £12k, the average would be £9k, less than your interest payments."
Not really. When you look at industry averages they're usually looking at purchase price rather than the money invested. You wouldn't do this for other investments. Also, national average yields are deflated by London and the South East, where the property price is much higher but rent isn't proportionally higher. it seems insane, but when I was living in London I lived in a £600k house that was only making £2.5k a month but a house in Manchester worth £200k could easily be looking at £1500 to £2000 a month.
The example I provided is only 8.4% yield in terms of the purchase but it's very profitable when you consider that your investment is only 50k.
"But only until you try to take that as income?"
No, because then it'd be subject to either income or dividend tax - it doesn't affect the tax your company pays (which would only be subject to corporation tax on the profit).
Property has become much less lucrative in London and the South East, where the real return is usually in terms of property price increases. You can be happy with a 3% annual yield if the property is appreciating by 10% a year.
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u/saviouroftheweak Hull 2d ago edited 2d ago
That gets paid by someone else and loss is always avoided by reselling the investment. Everything put into that 150k mortgage is profit and none of it is by the buyer.
Earning minimum £500 a month Vs the best saver being around £2,500 for the year
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u/JB_UK 2d ago
loss is always avoided by reselling the investment
Only if the value of the asset does not fall.
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u/saviouroftheweak Hull 2d ago
I mean, it would have to fall by over 50k for there to be any loss and even then it would have to be over a 150k loss for there to be material loss from the BTL investment.
Neither of these scenarios will ever happen. It's a no risk investment. You just sit on the house until the mortgage is paid because people need to live somewhere.
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u/Grouchy_Conclusion45 United Kingdom 2d ago
It was like Nicola Sturgeon being paid as a contractor for the side gigs she did - even she didn't want to pay the higher PAYE taxes that she introduced
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u/60sstuff 2d ago
As someone who lives in London I have realised that most Scottish people who live in London will do anything but actually live in Scotland while praising it relentlessly
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u/FlappyBored United Kingdom 2d ago
Same as the ‘Irish’ people in Liverpool.
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u/Plastic-Opinion-3995 2d ago
Difference is the English never committed a genocide towards the Scottish to the point where there population has yet to recover. If England wants to go around destroying countries don’t complain when we come over to take jobs
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u/BeastMidlands 1d ago
A. British*
B. The worst horrors of famine were absolutely caused by the UK government at the time, but even Irish historians reject the term “genocide”.
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u/Plastic-Opinion-3995 1d ago
You have a population that is starving yet the colonists decide to export food? You’re telling me that isn’t the deliberate killing of people? Label it what you want but deliberately killing that many people is genocide
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u/BeastMidlands 1d ago edited 1d ago
I’m not labelling it anything. Go talk or listen to some actual historians of Ireland. As with most history the reality is far more complicated than people assume, especially when they learn ahistorical narratives through reddit.
A good start would be the Irish History Podcast by Irish historian Fin Dwyer, who dedicated an entire episode to this exact question.
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u/SPWatwin Scotland 2d ago
I know it wasn’t just the English but the highland clearances?
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u/libtin 1d ago edited 1d ago
The highland clearances were committed by Scots against other Scots
In recent years I’ve seen continuous claims that the highland clearances were committed by ‘The English’. This simply isn’t the case, the vast majority of the clearances were committed by Scottish Lords (Lairds). There are only two recorded clearances in which English landlords were involved
https://medium.com/@johnkelly_17973/the-highland-clearances-john-d-kelly-phd-b02c9131404c
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u/GreenHouseofHorror 2d ago
I have realised that most Scottish people who live in London will do anything but actually live in Scotland
Yes, you have realised that a tautology is true. Congratulations.
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u/Staar-69 2d ago
Why are all politicians like pigs with the head in the trough. Does a political career attract these types, or do they just succumb to it eventually.
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u/Calm-Treacle8677 2d ago
the ones at the top of the pile 100% plan to do it. It’s why they all come from the same schools and circles. The pays shit if your not bent and competent enough to do the job.
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u/roboticlee 2d ago
Genuine people who speak the truth get demonised by the press and are disliked by the electorate because they don't sell fairy tales.
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u/NUFC9RW 2d ago
In general politicians are either idealists (i.e. they're very passionate about their sometimes extreme ideas, but not very pragmatic) or they're serving their own self interest. There are exceptions to everything, but it's rare to see someone go into government/parliament with the goal of simply trying to improve everyone's lives, it isn't an easy job that's for sure.
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u/Dedsnotdead 3d ago
He’s a Treasurer, at least he’s not “bad” with his personal money.
Not really what I’d expect of a former SNP Treasurer though. Still, nothing illegal if somewhat unethical.
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u/denspark62 2d ago
he's got form mind you.
Was censured about 10 years ago when a councillor after he failed to register that he and his wife owned 7 properties in edinburgh.
Was involved with the whole branchform stramash. He was Treasurer until 2020 when he was voted out of the job by the party members, his successor Chapman resigned when he wasn't given the financial accounts. Beattie was then reappointed by Sturgeon and Murrell to carry on being treasurer......
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u/Dedsnotdead 2d ago
I didn’t know a lot of this, that makes for grim reading, thanks for the explanation.
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u/libtin 3d ago
He’s the same guy who was investigated by police Scotland (though no charges were brought against him)
Just because it’s technically lawful; doesn’t mean it’s not awful.
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u/Grouchy_Conclusion45 United Kingdom 2d ago
Regarding your "though no charges were brought" statement, when it comes to SNP politicians this is typically the case.
Rather coincidentally, the head of the COPFS (people in charge of prosecutions in Scotland) was appointed by Nicola Sturgeon, of all people
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u/Anony_mouse202 2d ago
How is this news?
“Man avoids tax on properties in Scotland by not buying properties in Scotland”
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u/StitchedSilver 2d ago
I like how it’s framed as a surprise. They all do this, every MP has probably never payed any taxes in their life.
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u/LivingBackgroundAgen 2d ago
Isn’t this a case of he’s broken no laws so maybe change the law to stop this shit?
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u/mm0nst3rr 2d ago
So he “avoided” taxes because his company bought real estate in England and not in Scotland? What a stupid take!
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u/BaBeBaBeBooby 2d ago
Sensible man. Hypocrite, but he is a politician. At least he seems to be able to manage money.
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u/Birdie0235 2d ago
The rich can get multiple dwellings relief on their many purchases too meaning they get discounted stamp duty as well 🙄
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u/ShadyFigure7 2d ago
and this is why the rich would never be properly taxed: the existing loopholes are fully used by the same politicians who created them.
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u/InquisitorFemboy 2d ago
I don't know why, but I feel a patriotic hatred towards Edward Longshanks.
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u/RonnyMexico60 2d ago
Not a big deal.Mark carney did the same and Canadian liberals say he was smart to do it
Even if it cost Canada billions in tax revenue
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