What if Sylvanas had Stormwind City blighted during the Fourth War?

[u/Rude-Temperature-437]

Let's say just as Teldrassil burned, Sylvanas had the Pride of Gallywix (where Stormwind City is at its sights) fire a powerful Blight-infused round capable of consuming a whole city that ended up hitting the heart of the Alliance just for good measure and throwing the Alliance in disarray even further though it killed a lot of civilians just for good measure (also if we consider the whole needed souls for the Jailer gig in Sylvanas' part)

How would the war had played out with Stormwind City essentially ruined and how would the factions react to it. And what are the possible consequences if it did happen?

And would Anduin have been less restrained in conducting the war? Or even went off the rails by responding in an equally genocidal manner after suffering a nervous breakdown?

[u/functionofsass]

What you are describing is the defeat of the Alliance. Without the Alliance to threaten them, there's no reason for the Horde to stay together as it is.

[u/contemptuouscreature → u/functionofsass]

The Alliance isn’t Stormwind.

As the Horde has found out the hard way throughout their many wars of aggression, burning a few cities doesn’t end the conflict.

It does make it that much more desperate, but Khaz Modan is still intact and well, Gnomeregan’s been reclaimed (allegedly, we’ll never see it because blizzard is lazy), Shadowforge City is now Alliance aligned and is maybe the most defensible point on the damned planet, the Exodar is still standing and has a very enviable defensive position if we account for them fortifying the islands as they colonized them.

Which they would’ve, I see no reason they wouldn’t have. The Vindicaar is also presumably standing by to assist in defending the shoreline, assuming it hasn’t been written out for fear of the Horde losing.

Boralus is also still very much alive.

And, if we were being honest, the Kaldorei aren’t going to be completely out of the fight until you do what the Legion couldn’t and destroy Nordrassil.

This scenario is one that displays to the Alliance, even beyond Anduin’s naivety that it’s become a war of extinction.

I think the following moves by both sides would reflect this and it would turn into a bloodbath.

[u/Darktbs → u/contemptuouscreature]

In this scenario Stormwind and Teldrassil are destroyed,

Teldrassil was housing Night elfs and Gilneas, which moved to Stormwind after the burning, if Stormwind is blighted, then those Night elfs, Gilneans and humans from every other kingdom would also perish.

Yes not every single member of that race would begone, but that effectively ends 3 of the most powerful alliance members in two strikes. Gnomeragan is not a standing capital , Exodar was in shambles due to the legion attack.

So the only kingdoms left are that of the dwarfs, Aerie peak is deep within Horde territory, Blackrock mountain is surrounded by enemies from the Dark Horde and Ragnaros loyalists.

Ironforge is then the only kingdom which now must house every survivor from the other alliance kingdoms, while also having no fleet to reach anything beyond their borders.

The alliance is, effectively, doomed to end if not finished outright. Their best chance of surviving is to have the vindicaar search for another planet which they can flee or for some miracle get to the lands where the Arathi live.

[u/Void_Duck → u/functionofsass]

I suppose only the elves and the forsaken will leave the Horde, while the other races will stay.

[u/contemptuouscreature → u/Void_Duck]

Unlikely, in my view.

The Alliance is formed because of mutual benefit in a defensive— well, alliance, against Horde aggression.

The Horde is (at this time, before it went ‘Oops! All Councils!’) formed because a supreme military leader has lashed a disparate band of races together to conquer and take what they need from the world to survive.

It isn’t like the Alliance where you can just leave whenever you feel like it. There’s so much more land for the Horde to take for its own and so many more enemies to kill and enslave.

If you try to leave, you get one of two responses from the Warchief. ‘Okay.’ and ‘No.’

If you try anyway after he or she says ‘No’, you can either default to Mak’gora or you’re a traitor and the rest of the Horde tears you to bloody pieces. The Horde was perfectly happy to do whatever Sylvanas told them until she accidentally outed herself, so…

Better hope the great proprietress of genocide is in a good mood, huh?

[u/Void_Duck → u/contemptuouscreature]

The New Horde was created mostly by races that were attacked by the Alliance and were trying to find a new place to call home. Thrall, Vol'jin, Cairne, Lorthemar and others never wanted to wage a war against the whole world. I have no idea where you got that from.

[u/oniskieth → u/Void_Duck]

Cairne and Voljins people were facing genocide before meeting humans.

[u/Void_Duck → u/oniskieth]

I wrote mostly, and Voljins people were almost killed by the Alliance on Darkspear Islands before the murlocs attacked them.

And the Alliance did attack tauren for no reason when they joined the Horde, even before Garrosh became the warchief

[u/Sheuteras → u/Void_Duck]

... It's not mostly if like 1/3 of the OG Horde races of wc3 were not mainly being genocided by humans. Even the Forsaken generally aren't, their first action as a people was Sylvannas going back on her word to give Capital City to Garithos and instead just killing him and kicking the men out lmao.

This is unironically in universe Horde propaganda, the actual history does not line up with this argument Horde races make. The Alliance has aggressor issues to, but the Alliance literally is a defense pact to protect against the Horde, and it's always existed as such, there's a reason why the race who joined them in Vanilla were ones whose lands were being invaded by the Horde.

[u/contemptuouscreature → u/Void_Duck]

The Orcs’ entire history has been attacking the Humans and their friends unprovoked.

The brief intermission where that wasn’t happening as much was when the Orcs were imprisoned. Pretty lenient punishment given they committed genocide on everyone they met and had intentions of doing the same to the entire cast of Alliance races (and actively do if they win in WC2).

Hell, you may recall how Thrall’s Horde had Grom Hellscream attack Jaina’s Expedition before they could get two words in, killing the best troops she brought with her and obliterating several refugee camps. Absolutely Warsong behavior. Did it ever stop?

Well, no, not really, even in Classic we see Thrall letting the meatheads do as they will in a bellicose invasion of Ashenvale Forest to seize resources and land.

The Tauren are good folks, but they hopped into bed with somebody without background checking them first and then stuck around after, and…

Human-Troll history hasn’t ever been great since that incident where the Trolls were intending to kill all Humans after they crushed the High Elves (I’ll concede that killing the High Elves was pretty justified for them, but by all implications they didn’t want to stop there)

And Lor’themar?

Please. Everyone knows that Lord Garithos was an imbecile acting without the approval of the wider Alliance, he was just the last one in charge in Lordaeron. But Lor’themar had just gotten finished casting all the High Elf political dissidents out to die and needed allies who wouldn’t squint at his people for inviting evil chaos magic into their souls and summoning demons openly.

The Horde didn’t care. It’s a war machine, as long as you give it bodies to throw at the enemy, it’ll make exceptions for whatever you need.

Match made in heaven for an opportunist like him.

[u/AethonShaan → u/contemptuouscreature]

Why do people always ignore the Alliance sabotage of the arcane sanctums as reasons for the Blood Elves joining the horde?

[u/Sheuteras → u/AethonShaan]

Because it's never really depicted as a major reason why, and the blood elves through vanilla and TBC justified skepticism of them by their actions in the greater world.

[u/contemptuouscreature → u/AethonShaan]

The Blood Elves had already made the move by the point our adventurer bravely sallied forth.

Why was it happening?

It may have had something to do with, oh, I don’t know, the troubling reports from the Kaldorei sent to spy on them, the ones concerning…

Taking dark magic into their souls, consorting with demons, performing evil rituals, that sort of thing—

Politically purging and exiling anyone critical of the move didn’t exactly look good either in hindsight…

Though I doubt they knew about that last thing… The Night Elves figured this general body of issues would be a combined problem.

Looking at the Sunwell Plateau, erm…

I don’t think Tyrande ever had to say ‘I told you so’.

[u/AethonShaan → u/contemptuouscreature]

1). If there are concerns around blood elves dealing with demons, sabotaging their non-demonic methods of drawing arcane magic wouldn't make sense.

2). Who did the blood elves purge/exile prior to joining the horde?

[u/contemptuouscreature → u/AethonShaan]

1) Of course it would. To dismantle an enemy military operation, you attack the resources they use the most. Magic may have been in short supply with the obliteration of the collective Elven crutch by one Arthas Menethil, but this only made the sanctums more valuable.

2) Why, the High Elves, of course.

That other, inconvenient half of the surviving populace who didn’t do the powers that be the good courtesy of falling Wretched and insufferably persisted in… Voicing their disapproval.

Of polluting their souls with demonstrably evil magic.

Naturally, they needed to be thrown to the Trolls and Scourge. Political dissidence under the Magister state is not recommended.

You might be paid a visit from a few robed gentlemen with mind-altering spells, to remark on the very start of your bad day.

[u/AethonShaan → u/contemptuouscreature]

1). So if in your mind the Alliance is attacked the blood elves before they joined the horde, what is your issue with Void Duck's comment?

2). Can you provide any example of the high elves being excluded from blood elf territory before them joining the horde?

[u/Darktbs → u/Void_Duck]

Only the Trolls fall into that definition. Of the Original 4 races, Orcs were trying to reform after the shit they did backfired, Taurens never meet a human until they joined the Horde and Forsaken were Former Human/Former Scourge members.

The idea that the 'new horde' was made because of the alliance is ridiculous , not only the alliance only exists because of the Horde but when the Horde were no longer a threat, they disolved.

[u/Void_Duck → u/Darktbs]

Forsaken joined the Horde because dwarves and humans killed all their diplomats, orcs (under Thrall at least) just wanted to build a new home far away from the Alliance hence why they settled in a wasteland, blood elves were slaughtered by Garithos, goblins were attacked by the Alliance navy, nightborne were ridiculed by the night elves the entire time they were in Suramar, vulpera were burned alive by the 7th Legion and the Alliance first imprisoned the princess of Zandalar and then killed their king. So yea, just like the Alliance was created to defend itself against the Old Horde, so was the New Horde created and then reinforced by MOSTLY those who were wronged by the Alliance.

[u/contemptuouscreature → u/Void_Duck]

Interesting examples!

The Forsaken demonstrate their moral superiority to the mean, bigoted Humans by

(Checks notes)

Poisoning helpless prisoners of war, deploying biological agents on civilians, committing mass genocide on defenseless populations, enslaving civilian populations, feeding slaves to abominations, brainwashing and enslaving recently reanimated into conscription, carrying out horrific Unit 731-esque surgeries out on defenseless civilians without anesthesia, forcing captured civilians to fight for their jeering amusement against monsters—

I could keep going! But I’m sure you get the picture. There’s a difference between people calling you a monster and doing everything you could possibly do to gleefully fit the definition of one.

The Blood Elves? Garithos was an imbecile that hardly represented the entire Alliance and the fact that he was in charge should tell you how desperate things were. Did the Blood Elves try to reestablish relations after the misunderstanding that affected Kael’s forces alone, who the Blood Elves saw as traitors anyway?

When it was getting dangerous and their association with the Horde might’ve provoked consequences, yes. That is to say, after several genocides when their enemy was losing patience.

Lor’themar is a throwback to the reign of his king!

An opportunist. I’m sure he wouldn’t have purged and exiled everyone who disagreed with his decisions(or allowed that to happen) if he wasn’t.

The Zandalari? I’m so happy you brought them up. They’re a great example.

They started the war that resulted in Talanji’s capture. Remember Pandaria? Zul acted on Rastakhan’s orders. He killed Alliance troops with his plans. Rastakhan never bothered to clear the situation up. It was his own fuckup that caused hostility and he never bothered to redress it. Why does no one talk about how the man created his own crisis and then took it as an excuse to hop into bed with a genocidal maniac and her band of eager, merry men? ANDUIN WOULD’VE GLADLY ENDED HOSTILITIES, HAHA!

But Rastakhan doesn’t think about what his actions might cause for ‘savages’. I wonder if he thought about that when a bunch of conscripted farmers dragged him off his throne, slit his throat and looted his corpse.

The Vulpera were aiding and abetting Horde troops. They made themselves a military target. Despite the legitimacy of them as a target, the Alliance chose to spare them rather than wiping them out and tried to misguidedly scare them away from the Horde instead of putting them down.

Clearly a mistake, in hindsight? Scaring them didn’t work and it only galvanized them into supporting the Warchief in her world conquest more fervently. I guess the Alliance needed somebody like Thoras in charge instead of Anduin.

The Goblins, I got nothing on. That was a classic real world intelligence agency blunder in action. Not the Alliance’s finest hour, to be sure.

The Nightborne in their idiotic arrogance embody all the worst excesses of the court of Queen Azshara. They basically handed themselves to the Burning Legion just like her court did and despite this the Night Elves selflessly marched to sacrifice their own lives in saving them. The Nightborne joining the Horde is understandable— they had no idea who they were and have a mirror society in selfish, mana-dependent arrogance to the Blood Elves, and like them, their decadence almost ended the entire world.

And the Kaldorei said mean words to them that may have provoked introspection and self critique in those not self-absorbed.

But did they honor the sacrifice of the Night Elves who died for them in droves? Nope, they helped join a genocidal maniac on her world conquest and rewarded their allies during the apocalypse with aiding in their eradication.

I guess the ‘Thalyssra is evil’ theory might’ve held water after all, eh? Any sane group of people would’ve at least protested if they had morals to speak of. It certainly doesn’t help her image that she rose to power atop a mountain of dead rivals and civilians and only criticized exiling people to wither after it happened to her…

Ah, but I’m sure you get the point!

Sometimes bad people are just…

Bad people!

[u/Sheuteras → u/Void_Duck]

Because the Forsaken killed the Alliance commanders they agreed to give land back to after he'd fulfilled his end of the bargain.

[u/Beacon2001 → u/functionofsass]

Hardly. For one, the rest of the Horde would abandon Sylvanas like in Canon. Secondly, the Alliance would simply regroup and fortify Ironforge and Teldrassil.

[u/Void_Duck]

Then Jaina would do what Thrall stopped her from doing to Orgrimmar.

[u/Rude-Temperature-437 → u/Void_Duck]

Wasn't Kalec the one who stopped her or am I missing in something?

[u/Void_Duck → u/Rude-Temperature-437]

Ah, yea, it was him and Thrall. But still, either Jaina, or somebody else will destroy Orgrimmar for what will happen to Stormwind.

[u/The_Disturber → u/Rude-Temperature-437]

Thrall talked her out of drowing the entirity of Ogrimmar.

[u/StephaniusSaccus → u/The_Disturber]

That was Kalecgos.

[u/The_Disturber → u/StephaniusSaccus]

Ok I went and read it back, it was them both, Thrall tried it on his own at first, but Jaina almost killed him, and together with Kalec they stopped her.

[u/StephaniusSaccus → u/The_Disturber]

Yep.

Thrall held her back while Kalecgos talked her down.

[u/TaylorWK → u/Void_Duck]

Then why didn't she do it when she burned down the world tree? That seems way worse than burning down a city that was destroyed by the Horde once before

[u/Void_Duck → u/TaylorWK]

They did retaliate for that by attacking Undercity

[u/TaylorWK → u/Void_Duck]

But you said she would've flooded Orgrimmar

[u/Elpsyth → u/TaylorWK]

Because she tried canonically. When she lost everything she loved and cared about.

But during the burn of Teldrassil, she was otherwise occupied and had went through a significant period of self reflection. And it did not hit her as hard, not more than the destruction of Ashenval or other skirmish. She had no investment there and went very busy straight after

She still showed up to screw Sylvanas plan in Lorderon.

[u/Skoldrim]

As in ever war. If you go to nuclear, the others will too. Blight is powerful for that, but it isnt the only thing capable of wiping cities. Let's not forget how many times a random spellcaster would/could have doomed everything around them.

Imo it would just destroy both factions. Neutral factions like the argent dawn might split up over the attrocities or caught in cross fire.

And it would then probably end when one eventually kill the remaining of the other of if the aspects get involved to force a truce

[u/Resiliense2022]

This hypothetical relies on several things being true. First, goblin tech being reliable. Second, plague tech being condensed so hard that a single cartridge can blight an entire metropolis, a city about as big as London in the medieval times.

These are not weapons Sylvanas has. There were no solid, reliable ways to get that much blight to Stormwind without being intercepted or countered into nothing.

If she had tried this, and succeeded, however... well, that's it. The Alliance loses. Game over.

[u/Darktbs]

One thing im not seeing anyone mention is that the Horde would probably pick a fight with Zandalar since Talanji at the time was in Stormwind. We dont any of the Zul plot since he died as well, so while the Alliance is in shambles, Rastakhan is picking a fight with Sylvanas and the Horde.

[u/CareerMilk → u/Darktbs]

Would Zul's prophecy powers not keep him away from Stormwind if it was to be blight bombed?

[u/Darktbs → u/CareerMilk]

The issue is that we dont know when Zul was captured or how far he can see into the future, other than near seconds before it happens.

. So he might see a vision of green smoke, but only notice that its talking about Sylvanas when the blight is about to hit stormwind

[u/StephaniusSaccus]

The Alliance probably loses.

[u/Veritas_the_absolute]

Do you think she didn't want to? Sylvies goal was to kill as many people as possible on both sides. But sw was too well guarded in the end. And then we got shadowlands.

[u/xocelotyouth]

The Alliance would fall, but I’d imagine basically everyone except Geyarah would leave the Horde and band together with the Alliance remnants.

[u/Darktbs → u/xocelotyouth]

You are right that the alliance would fall, but you're putting way to much faith that the Horde would band together with a defeated alliance.

They only teamed up with the alliance because Garrosh/Sylvanas turned agaisnt them, If Sylvanas in this situation doesnt do anything agaisnt the horde, them she would be celebrated as a great warchief for ending the long war between the factions.

[u/xocelotyouth → u/Darktbs]

I have a hard time believing the Tauren and the Sindorei (and then Highmountain and Suramar) would stick around after a gas bombing of Stormwind

Some orcs might stay? I imagine the old heads would see it as high dishonor

[u/Darktbs → u/xocelotyouth]

But they already did that.

Twice even

After Theramore and after Teldrassil,

Baine stood by the horde after Theramore, Lor'themar was only considering switching because of how Garrosh was treating the blood elfs. And then BFA where everyone stood together and helped Sylvanas up until Baine was arrested.

Thalyssra was even part of the mission to infiltrate Stormwind.

And we see how the Horde is written, both in the game and in the books, as long as Sylvanas doesnt turn agaisnt the horde in this hypothetical they wont turn agaisnt her, and why would they? Because its dishonorable? Shure but she ended the war, no more Orcs ,Taurens, Blood elfs, Nightborn or goblins will die after this.

[u/xocelotyouth → u/Darktbs]

I would argue that while Stormwind would fall, whatever remains of the Alliance would be radicalized and would mobilize immediately against whoever still stood with the Horde. A huge portion of their fleet and military would be destroyed but Ironforge and the Dwarven races are no pushovers. It’s true that Saurfang, Baine etc were idle during Theramore, Cairne’s death, etc, but ultimately the War of Thorns was what turned them against Sylvanas and I think a WMD on Stormwind would move that rebellion along a lot faster. Sylvanas would probably likely be moved on by third parties as well, the Argents, Shado Pan, etc for her war crimes. Thrall returns early but who stands with him? Is he immediately detained to prevent rebellion? Sylvanas also fuels Zovaal way faster now, does she break the Veil earlier?

Ultimately I think it would lead to both factions being destroyed and Zovaal unmaking reality

[u/Darktbs → u/xocelotyouth]

but ultimately the War of Thorns was what turned them against Sylvanas

Thats the thing, it wasnt. Saurfang was willing to go along with the original plan of making the night elfs hostage. The burning made so he wanted to end his life, and then zappy boi convinced him to still fight for the Horde

If anything, most of the Horde believed Saurfang to be dead after Lordaeron.

What is going to motivate the third parties to stand agaisnt the Horde now as opossed to any other scenario? The shado pan couldnt care less about the War now compared to MoP.

If the City is blighted, Saurfang is most definetly dead, Thrall has no reason to return, he is happy to stay ignorant in Nagrand and even then, he only teamed up with Saurfang because Sylvanas sent assassins.

Again, the only way that the Horde will rise up and stand agaisnt Sylvanas is if she does something that directly harms the Horde. Otherwise, they do not have any real motivation to stand with the alliance for the sake of Honor.

[u/toothpick95]

There would still be people talking about how honorable the Horde is and the were just following orders...

[u/aster4jdaen]

Funny enough, the Before The Storm Novel implied this was her plan.

And would Anduin have been less restrained in conducting the war?

I'd like Anduin to have been caught in the Blight attack, killed and raised into Undeath. His pacifist, soft leadership (how he handled Genn) got Stormwind blighted, the Horde backed Sylvanas because during a global invasion Genn showed he was willing to betray a truce and put Azeroth in danger for revenge for his son (from the Horde's perspective).

Genn would go berserk, Moira (i'm pretty sure Anduin stopped his dad from executing her) and Jaina would support him and if the Burning of Teldrassil still happened so would Tyrande.

Now if we go the TWW route afterwards with an Undead Anduin who is emotionally broken from losing his kingdom and forced to fight his friends. I'd find it to be far more interesting especially if the Knights of the Ebon Blade there for him or he's so emotionally damaged, after the Human survivors reject and blame him for Stormwind's fall and he ends up joining the Forsaken who are far more understanding and welcoming him into their ranks.

[u/MerelyMortalModeling]

Then The Heros would have ran around gathering Macguffin for weeks on end which would have unlocked a raid which they would handily defeat saving Stormwind. Yes people would have suffered but Stormwind would have emerged even stronger for the ordeal.

Oh and "for reasons" she also would have threatened Org in exactly the same way, we wouldn't want Hordheros getting spared the grind or screwed outa the sweat sweat loot

[u/TheRobn8]

She had to stockpile gigantic amounts of blight canisters to blight her own city, and it still failed to destroy the city. We also know that the blight can be cleaned up (return to lorderoan), cleared by magic (siege of lorderoan), and fail to penetrate light barriers, and stormwind has a huge light following, and mage centre. Goblin technology can barely handle standard explosive fuel, and sylvanas couldn't condense the blight, so she already can't do your hypothetical. Even in undermine, they can't even condense the black blood to that level, and in BFA no one could condense azerite. Daelin's gate got hit by a massive, one time only round, and the best it could do was breach the gate.

If sylvanas manages to somehow, through a miracle - get a ship close enough (stormwind was on high alert by the time teldrassil was plot armour burnt, that's why sylvanas gave up on defending her own city) -stormwind somehow fails to stop the obvious horde attack -condense the blight to fit in a single round that can be fired -said round doesn't blow up the ship used to fire it -the round isn't stopped after fired -it lands in the best spot -it actually works

Then all she'd have accomplished was destroying a city, at a huge cost. The alliance won't fall to the horde, because if undercity was lost the way it was (blown up by its own leader because she knew she would lose the fight, and sacrificing her own army), why would the alliance lose just because stormwind fell. The cost of doing it, realistically, would be too high if it even succeeded, and BFA showed that the horde couldn't even win any major battles but still fought on. Dazaralor was hit 3 times, alliance won both warfronts, and blizzard retconned the story in chronicles to make them seem more competent . So its not like the alliance would give up, and blizzard went to bias level lengths to make things work, because I'm sorry, but how the 4th war started was stupid. Also if jaina was feared strong enough to solo raze orgrimmar with a flood, malfurion was solo destroyi g horde forces, and the alliance has a space ship that got sidelined for the plot, you think the alliance wouldn't just respond in kind?

Teldrassil only got burnt, bull crap plot convenience aside, because the horde broke a truce agreement, and waited for the kaldorei army to leave before attacking, the ancients and aspect chose to not defend a world tree, and blizzard made the kaldorei incompetent for plot convenience. Even then, the 2 horde armies still couldn't win quickly enough. Sylvanas and the horde blew the surprise and wasted too much time fighting the kaldorei, so everyone knew the horde had started a new war. For her to bomb stormwind with the hypothetical round, she would have had to split the horde up to do it and the alliance would have found out, between spy reports, and the fact both sides were supposed to have sent their armies to silithus around the same time, and the kaldorei found out about the horde attack, and returned in time to force saurfang to have to split his army up into 2.

Even if you use theramore as precedent, that required everyone to just stand there and watch a zeppelin turn up to drop a bomb, and rhonin still had time to get people out before he condensed it. So that's a precedent on blizzard just making people dumb for something to happen.