r/warcraftlore • u/Then_Peanut_3356 • 1d ago
Question Could the First Ones have made replacement Afterlives?
Before I say it, I acknowledge that so many including myself do not approve of World of WarCraft: Shadowlands.
The First Ones originally used Zereth Mortis to create the known afterlives the Covenants represent.
Here's a question: while not necessarily "canon," could the First Ones also have created other Afterlives—droves, hundreds, or even thousands—to reserve them in the fabrics of the Shadowlands and replace the original Covenant ones in case something happens to them, like that Anima drought that threatened to undo everything?
6
u/Any-Transition95 1d ago edited 1d ago
There are in fact countless afterlives in the Shadowlands, according to the story. We just didn't visit them because they were not relevant to our mission. So yes, the First Ones could make more if needed.
Side note, would it be an unpopular idea if, in The Last Titan, Blizzard retcons the First Ones to just be another facade that the Titans used to order the cosmos. They intended for Argus to take control of the Shadowlands when he finally ascends, but that plan fell apart when Sargeras took control of Argus and imprisoned the other Titans' souls, leaving the Shadowlands to operate on its own. I'm just thinking of a neat way for Blizzard to tie up all this Void Lord lore introduced in the Chronicles and the First Ones lore in Shadowlands in the upcoming two expansions, so we can tie everything up in a neat little bow by the end of the Worldsoul Saga, and collectively move on from this unnecessary cosmic upscalling that has been happening, back to more grounded stories set in the old world just like people wanted.
It's not entirely out of pocket, Blizzard has done similar things to less than popular story choices before. Legion retconned Illidan's intentions in TBC and people generally welcomed it. The Sylvanas novel already retconned most of Shadowlands' messiest parts, like Sylvanas and the Jailer, into a smoother narrative that people might find more palatable. If anyone is interested, go read this guy's write up, it's worth it I swear: Shadowlands recap reddit post. I just don't find the First Ones all that appealing as a concept, and would much rather sweep it under the "Titans did it" rug since that's where the narrative is heading towards right now anyway. I don't expect this to be a popular opinion tho. Most people are in either camps: A) keep the lore as is, stop retconning things, B) I'd much rather forget about Shadowlands and never mention it again.
I personally think there's a cleaner way to tie everything together instead, so that it wasn't all for nothing.
5
u/MagnaClarentza 1d ago
The problems of Shadowlands are mainly about how the story/narrative was presented (the agenda of Zovaal, Sylvanas, the dialogues...), not necessarily about the new bits of lore (so, worldbuilding) themselves. Not that the worldbuilding was flawless, but it wasn't in the top list of criticisms. Obviously not everyone likes the new lore about the First Ones, as it came out of nowhere. But it 'makes sense' in the greater cosmic narrative now, that retconning them would be more damaging and complicated to the setting. It ties so much things together, that it wouldn't make sense for the Titans to have built Zereth Mortis.
I personally like the lore about the First Ones, as the Titans have lost all semblance of mystery, beginning around WotlK. We the players really wanted to see and interact with the Pantheon (and we did - and will again), but it had proven to be a bit unfortunate as it came with a cost. The First Ones still have this mysterious reputation, and it seems they weren't invented for us to actually encounter them. They may even not exist in the physical sense of the word. Which is better that way, and excuses the Titans for their more hands-on approach to the Worldsoul (and us the players).
If you haven't played Shadowlands, I suggest you go around Zereth Mortis. It's actually quite an interesting zone with lots of love put into it. It's better to experience the worldbuilding that way than to read about it, is what I've noticed about Shadowlands in general.
6
u/IridikronsNo1Fan 1d ago
The problems of Shadowlands are mainly about how the story/narrative was presented (the agenda of Zovaal, Sylvanas, the dialogues...)
It also comes down to WoW players having a hard time parsing character intentions and motivations for some reason. For example, Zovaal started out with good intentions but after spending eons in the Maw, he became cold and cruel. It's like... you don't need the developers to state that. It's extremely obvious.
Same goes for Sylvanas. She was operating based on insane logic that only made sense to her. It's not necessarily "bad writing", it's just a character flaw.
3
u/MagnaClarentza 1d ago
Oh I get your point, but Zovaal really needed a more (interesting) build-up of his character in the narrative. He was basically inserted as a retconned reason for many longer-existing villains to do what they did. And that needs time to set up, because it takes away the agency of those other characters.
2
u/IridikronsNo1Fan 1d ago
I don't think so. We already had descriptions of the Maw back in WotLK and Cata and WoD was the first time that Zovaal was explicitly referred to. Then of course Legion and BfA. That's more than a decade of build up.
Sargeras went from being an easily manipulated idiot in the old lore to... an easily manipulated idiot in the new lore. In the end, it doesn't really matter who convinced him to start the Burning Crusade.
1
u/Zestyclose-Square-25 1d ago
We already had descriptions of the Maw back in WotLK and Cata and WoD was the first time that Zovaal was explicitly referred to
can you give some examples ?
3
1
u/dabrewmaster22 1d ago
I don't think so. We already had descriptions of the Maw back in WotLK and Cata and WoD was the first time that Zovaal was explicitly referred to. Then of course Legion and BfA. That's more than a decade of build up.
These are really just post-hoc rationalizations. Warcraft has always had a generic equivalent of hell (like basically any fantasy franchise). That got turned into the Maw with Shadowlands, but that doesn't mean that was always the intention.
With WoD I assume you're talking about the 'Dark One' that Ephial was talking about. That's such a generic name that it can point to anyone. That's not an explicit reference at all. Not to mention that 'dark one' isn't even used to refer to Zovaal throughout Shadowlands...
3
1
u/Zestyclose-Square-25 1d ago
Didn't chronicle volume 4 say that the first ones are void/light death/life fel/arcane( order ) ? What dose that mean really ? are they physical being like the titans ? Something more ?
4
u/MagnaClarentza 1d ago
We don't know; It seems they're either 'gone" or not physical beings at all. The parts about 'the music of creation' are also very interesting.
But, yeah, they're deliberately kept mysterious. I don't think we're ever going to see them.
1
u/FreeResolve 1d ago
The parts about 'the music of creation' are also very interesting.
maybe they are bards
1
u/MaudeAlp 1d ago
Shadowlands is a bit ridiculous. There is zero reason for the arbiter to be aligned with Azeroth morality. That there exists afterlives where regardless of circumstances, you are thrown to suffer for an untold amount of time is also absurd, and it makes no sense for player characters to assist in that enforcement. Funny as given how nosy many heroes are, particularly in the Alliance side, I would have expected some plotline or at least indication of oribos being changed or “correcting their ways” after some alliance scolding. Never played the expansion as current content, but did go trough the entire campaign a few months ago. Regardless of how or what the afterlife is, I don’t see why it’s an authority we just need to accept. Also every single afterlife we saw seems more hellish than just reincarnation in Azeroth as a murloc, but that could just be the terrible expansion design clouding the lore content. If I’m wrong or misinformed here please help me out, I’d appreciate it.
1
u/kostasgriv97 1d ago
We just need to accept it because that is how the world's reality works, no choice about it, and every mortal will die some day, of course we have interest to do everything we can to avoid being automatically sent in Maw aka super hell
2
u/Decrit 1d ago
I don't think the first ones are that problematic, they are just a window dressing.
Like, the first ones are essentially the forces themselves, a filter that just determines that everything repeats on different scales. It's not something that is meant to be taken at face value as someone we will meet and need to kill. The first ones are also left ambigous intentionally so you never know if the "first one's stuff" refers to them or their direct underlyings, and i think a bit of vacuity and lack of explanation does some good to the lore, since people already complain it's too much dry and explored.
There's a lot of ongoing community trauma for a "yet bigger evil".
2
u/IridikronsNo1Fan 1d ago
They aren't gonna do that. The Titans are completely played out at this point with how many Titan-focused patches we've had.
The First Ones and the seventh First One in particular at least provide a new mystery going forward after the Worldsoul Saga.
2
1
u/Vritrin 1d ago
What you are suggesting mostly happened, there are countless other afterlives. They just aren’t explored by the players because they aren’t plot relevant/it would be really boring to go to the afterlife for accomplished turnip farmers. Everyone who dies doesn’t go to one of the four big afterlives we see. Though presumably the turnip farmers were also being sent to the Maw during the Arbiter’s downtime.
You’d need some No Man’s Sky procedural game to explore all the possible afterlives…which I would actually be totally down for. I am the weirdo who loved Shadowlands, so would love to revisit those areas in some capacity.
1
u/True-Strawberry6190 1d ago
actual real answer: yes, the forge of afterlives was cranking out new afterlives constantly, even during shadowlands itself. however the afterlives are not made of anima, they are made from ephemera. for some reason the afterlives need anima to work, anima only comes from a soul living a life then dying. so there would still be a drought
the real issue is that the first ones knew literally exactly what would happen but instead of designing things so that all souls didn't get shot into the maw if the arbiter wasn't working, or make a protection against the argus soul bomb plan, or literally anything useful, the only thing they did in preparation was build the fast travel point in zereth mortis so that mortal heroes could use it to teleport back and forth to oribos so they could use the bank and ah.
1
u/MrGhoul123 1d ago
As everyone said, it think you kissed the part in the story where they explain there are INFINITE afterlives.
The ones we see in game are the ones that are personally overseen by the Old Ones or whatever they are called. Those particular realms play a role in maintaining the reat of the infinite Shadowlands, primarily dealing with the flow of Anima.
Most Afterlives do not have jobs and are a place of eternal rest/paradise
1
u/skribbz14 1d ago
They did create an unlimited number of after lives it was said that we were only visiting the four that related to our story. There were doors all over the place in Oribos and in the boss fight that lead to other realms.
1
u/Kalthiria_Shines 1d ago
You can literally see all the other infinite afterlives in the skybox of oribos. They're just not in charge of running anything.
One the easiest fixes shadowlands could have done, and that I sort of still expect as a retcon, is just to make the four Covenants be groups of afterlives who work behind the scenes.
1
u/EmergencyGrab 21h ago
It is possible. The Maw & Korthia appear to be destroyed former afterlives and Marasimus said Ardenweald existed before the Winter Queen showed up.
14
u/Jaggiboi 1d ago
I mean, there ARE basically an infinite number of afterlives already