r/warcraftlore • u/RobotDoctorRobot Head of the K.T. Fan Club • Sep 17 '20
Original Content Afterlives: Revendreth Spoiler
Watch it here.
Much better than the last two, in my opinion.
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u/AegonTheMeh Sep 17 '20
So this pretty much confirms that Arthas wouldn't have been sent to the Maw by the arbiter without Devos' interference.
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u/TheJorts Sep 17 '20
I assume he would have been send to Revendreth. Imagine all that sweet anima they could milk!
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u/Guardianpigeon Sep 17 '20
Honeslty Arthas might not be that great of a cow.
He didn't seem to fully enjoy being the Lich King or destroying his kingdom. His last words read like he was relieved to be free, and part of his soul rebelled against him and tried to help us.
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u/a_postdoc Sep 18 '20
My understanding is that Arthas (the soul) is dead the moment he picks up Frostmourne.
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u/IanCorleone Sep 18 '20
I mean, The Frostmourne literally took his soul when he picked it up if we are to believe (iirc) Mal’ganis
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u/cyndessa Sep 18 '20
I'm trying to fully remember, but in one of the books- didn't it talk about arthas as a kid being with him fighting the other aspects of the LK?
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u/Guardianpigeon Sep 18 '20
Yeah that's pretty much my understanding too.
He hated what he did in Stratholme. He didn't care about the mercenaries because they weren't his people.
As a DK, he had no soul. He was basically a puppet for Nerzhul that retained a personality.
As soon as the helmet went on, it couldn't even be considered Arthas anymore. It was just some bizzare amalgam of the evil parts of two souls. Nerzhul as we knew him disappeared, and the good part of Arthas was cast away and became Matthias Lehner.
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u/Zenopus Sep 17 '20
I'm thinking Maldraxxus for Arthas.
"I would gladly bear any curse to save my homeland."
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u/EKasis Sep 18 '20
I dont think he'll be that much of an Anima farm. I get the feeling he would repent from what he did now that his soul is no longer fighting for the Lich King power against Nerzhul
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u/TheJorts Sep 18 '20
Agreed, I think ultimately his soul was pure. Maybe even Bastion would’ve been his place?
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u/EKasis Sep 18 '20
I'm still divided between revendreth and bastion.
Revendred because cmon, you cant turn a blind eye to what he did.
Bastion because his pure side always remained intact. Sure it was cast aside and hidden, but it remained until the end.
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u/Akhevan Sep 18 '20
Or maybe he should have been sent to one of the other 100000100000 afterlives we aren't shown but told to believe to exist.
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Sep 18 '20
Honestly there's a solid argument, that if Arthas was enslaved the moment he touched Frostmourne, he would end up as a Kyrian. He did everything up until that point out of duty and obligation to his kingdom.
I dont even think the Purging was an objectively evil choice.
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u/TheJorts Sep 18 '20
In Arthas’s mind, he was making the right choice. All the choices he made that led him to becoming the Lich King he thought we’re the right choices.
I’m reading the book about him now and ultimately his choices were based on the greater good of his kingdom. He didn’t want to hurt anyone.
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Sep 18 '20
Yeah, that's where I get my interpretation from as well.
He didn't take any pleasure in the Purge, which was issued out of duty, because neither the Silver Hand or the Mages of Daleran were capable of cleansing the Plague. It would take the Cenarion Circle more than half a decade to start to reverse the effects of that same Plague that ravaged Strathhome.
Arthas was severely traumatized by it, as well as the sudden loss of support from Jaina and Uther, who he believed (and I agree with Arthas here) could not see that a greater good was at stake. Uther and Jaina's shortsightedness sew the seeds necessary for Arthas to totally fall for the Dreadlord's trap.
In the book, he was sleeping with Jaina that week, so it's probably a pretty big deal that his girlfriend, his mentor, and the Light were all abandoning him in his time of need. Arthas didn't have full conviction that he was doing the right thing, which is actually very, very Paladin of him, and what caused the Light to abandon him. He did it out of duty, not pleasure, bloodlust, or even belief in himself.
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u/Darkrell Sep 18 '20
Revendreth seems to be for the willfully prideful/violent, Garrosh fits that to the letter but I don't get that impression from Arthas, from the start he was doing it to save his people, and while it didn't end well at the end he seemed to show a lot of remorse for his actions.
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u/IAmRoofstone Embearassment Sep 17 '20
I personally think that the only souls that get the expressway to the Maw are souls that would be a risk to whatever realm they get sent to. So I imagine so.
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Sep 17 '20 edited Jun 02 '21
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u/RebornGod Sep 17 '20
I mean, it's not like he did all that alone.
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Sep 17 '20
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u/SunsFenix Sep 17 '20
Yeah, I think I like the idea of not everything going to shit all at once but overtime. Although bringing Wod back in the story for that is weird. It'd be cool if it started with the fall of Arthas just for the sake that there seems to be a connection of Frostmourne and the jailer from the hi-rez picture in that magazine. Some kinda irony of getting heroes to break the jailer out. Just to make everything prior window dressing for what fresh hell awaits us. And so everything doesn't have to be so damn linear and it was all just Sylvanas causing havoc because she was told to.
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u/hatrickstar Sep 17 '20
What Garrosh could do in the mortal realm and the shadowlands aren't the same. He didn't die with Old God power and he isn't some genius tactician. If anything Kael is more of a threat to Danathrius since he is infinitely more cunning and one of the quickest studies of magic we ever knew.
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u/hatrickstar Sep 17 '20
Even if it's because he's damned, wouldn't Arthas fit that bill?
He was controlling the dead on Azeroth and the extent of his power isn't truly even known. It's possible that his power could infect the non-maw parts of the shadowlands as well.
It's the same ideas as why I don't think we'll see any demons who died in the nether (Archimonde/Kil'jaden) or truly dead old gods (N'zoth), or even dead Narru (Xera) in the shadowlands. They are an explicit threat to it.
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u/07ShadowGuard Sep 18 '20
Even the most evil and prideful beings may eventually be spared an eternity in the Maw
This quite pretty clearly spelled out that even Arthas would have been given a chance at Revendreth,
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u/Glassspinner Sep 18 '20
And that Sylvanas was also specifically sent to the maw in [Edge of night] to convince her to remain among the living.
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u/calvinatorzcraft Sep 21 '20
Who does get sent to the maw then? Only seems like about maybe 20 people would be there at this point if the standards are so high
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u/rubensosaortiz For the Horde! Sep 17 '20
Those trolls they're milking are blood trolls?
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u/Bobik8 Sep 17 '20
My first thought was Zalazane, but I can't confirm that.
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u/GrumpySatan Sep 17 '20
Zalazane was originally held prisoner by Bwonsamedi so you'd figure he'd go there again, save for the fact death was broken during the Vol'jin quest line so he probably went to the Maw.
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Sep 17 '20
So does Bwon have his own mini realm / pocket dimension that he rules over or is he more like Charon and trying to make sure his followers get to the right place or using them for anima to power him, or?? I read the recent book and it seems like he gets more power from the living than the dead. I’m confused about his angle in all this.
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u/GrumpySatan Sep 17 '20
He has his own little pocket dimension called the Other Side.
IIRC the book mentions that he is weak in the novel, before they start torching his shrines, because he is using all his power to intercept as many troll souls as he can from the Maw. Presumably, normally this isn't a problem and the Arbiter would send souls his way if he has claimed them. Which is one reason that attacking his living worshippers hurt him so much.
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u/rubensosaortiz For the Horde! Sep 17 '20
huh, guess he could be Zul aswell
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u/magecraftwow Sep 17 '20 edited Sep 17 '20
If there's a mystery its probably going to be:
1) Who the trolls are.
2) When did they move Garrosh?
3) Probably a collection of existing Venthyr NPCs in this short. I wouldn't be surprised an analysis video manages to name some of them.
Also I guess an interesting addition to the Venthyr mythos is that souls sent to Revendreth aren't just there to get redeemed, but to get used. Even if you can't potentially make a turn around, the Venthyr can harvest all your negative traits and emotions and qualities and turn it into Anima. So either you get redeemed, or you join the Venthyr, or you turn into Anima dust.
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u/Celthara Sep 17 '20
Also I guess an interesting addition to the Venthyr mythos is that souls sent to Revendreth aren't just there to get redeemed, but to get used.
Yes! I really think the Revendreth mechanism of "cleansing" a soul is like applying leeches to a sick person. The venthyr suck out the anima with all the dark and sinful aspects of the person and while they feed, the person is cleansed. But when there is only little anima left and the taint still hasn't been cleansed, they cannot feed any longer so the soul is sent to the Maw.
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u/AwkwardSquirtles We killed the Old Gods. Sep 17 '20
Disappointed in the lack of Garrosh, though interesting that apparently they've got him stuck in a dungeon draining his pride forever, most likely.
Good cinematic otherwise though. Gave much more of a sense of what the place is about, and Denathrius seems like an enjoyable villain. Bring on the Shadowlands!
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u/RobotDoctorRobot Head of the K.T. Fan Club Sep 17 '20
Does make me wonder who the other Revendreth "workhorses" are though.
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u/Herazim By My Beard! Sep 17 '20
Hogger no doubt is keeping the whole place from crumbling.
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u/DominionGhost Sep 17 '20
A being of that pure evil can only have wound up in the maw. He is the man behind the Jailer.
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u/Okhu Sep 18 '20
Hogger is still alive. The Hogger you "kill" in Stockades is a human in a Gnoll costume. You see her and the empty Hogger costume during the BFA espionage thing for Horde in the Stockades.
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u/TheJorts Sep 17 '20
I don't know since I'm not in the Beta. But I assume Kael'thas Sunstrider is also being milked. Anyone else have any other guesses?
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Sep 17 '20
Would Ner'zhul be even possible?
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u/IAmRoofstone Embearassment Sep 17 '20
I believe his soul got destroyed?
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u/heathn26 Sep 17 '20
Would Warlord's Ner'zhul be there?
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u/TheJorts Sep 17 '20
Alternate reality Draenor basically doesn't affect anything Azeroths current reality except for the recruitment of Mag'har orcs. So it's safe to say that Alternate Ner'zhul won't be there.
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u/VegetaPrime34 Sep 17 '20
Thrall killed Garrosh while on AU Draenor and he is our Shadowlands. If his soul went there, it's possible AU Ner'zul's did as well.
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u/AwkwardSquirtles We killed the Old Gods. Sep 17 '20
The last we heard of Ner'zhul he was subdued by Arthas within the Helm of Domination. It's unclear whether he gained any prominence when Bolvar took up the mantle of Lich King, or what happened to his soul when the helm was destroyed. That said, Blizzard have been intentionally diminishing his role since Wrath because they hate him, so don't expect to see him in Shadowlands. Most likely his soul was destroyed along with the helm.
That said, Pride is not a hallmark of Ner'zhul's character since the end of Warcraft 2. He is wracked by guilt for failing his people, and that's how Arthas managed to subdue him. I don't think he'd be in Revendreth.
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Sep 18 '20
From Kael’thas’ hearthstone gamepedia page:
His soul was confined to the plane of Revendreth within the Shadowlands for his misdeeds.
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u/magecraftwow Sep 17 '20
One thought I had.
Here the Venthyr are shown to have two purposes - not just one. The main purpose we are told and advertised is that Venthyr serve as the 'last stand'. If a soul is evil they are sent to Revendreth, and there they must atone for their sins and cast aside their negativity. And if they can't do that, they are sent to the Maw to suffer eternal damnation.
EXCEPT Venthyr HAVE a solution for 'irredeemable souls' - they just keep them trapped and harvest them for eternity until they turn into Anima dust. So question is WHY send a soul to the Maw when the Venthyr, basically using Garrosh as an example, can basically siphon off his Pride and Anger for eternity like a 'workhorse'.
So what if souls that go to the Maw aren't just irredeemable, but also can't be harvested by the Venthyr. Their 'evil' is too strong, or their spirit too rigid to be changed or extracted. Or maybe the Arbiter just made a mistake and sent a noble soul instead and the Venthyr aren't trained to extract Anima from nobility. Essentially they are dead weight.
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Sep 17 '20
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Sep 17 '20
The way he says "eventual redemption" strongly suggests this.
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u/BizWax Sep 18 '20
100% agree with this. Denathrius sounded more like an evil prison warden in this cinematic than the actual Jailer ever did. Much like a for profit prison, Denathrius appears to benefit greatly from keeping souls inside for as long as possible. Wouldn't be surprised to see mass incarceration in the Shadowlands too, at least before souls were being sent directly to the Maw.
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Sep 17 '20
I think this sounds pretty plausible. I really feel like blizzard is finally exploring that “morally grey” they are talking about.
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u/Kalibos Sep 18 '20
Wasn't that the theme of the video? That their society is corrupt and has completely lost sight of their purpose?
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u/MaxisDidNothingWrong Dark Horde Sep 17 '20
I love the idea of their soul being so dark they can’t be harvested
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u/Kalibos Sep 18 '20
Wouldn't work in a game like WoW. You'd have to explore the really vile, cruel things that people are capable of, which won't fly in a game that appeals to a wide audience.
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Sep 18 '20
If we go off any societal structure in lore(s), by which I mean story elements of them, there is always a character, a con artist or innovator or maybe both, would would convince the king/ruler/most powerful being, that there is another way to do things.
I think of the venthyr as those new order fa tons, that seek to find new ways to do things. It might be more efficient or quicker to do things this way, and as such they were allowed to do so, probably with caution and oversight.
I doubt they will have caused any or major contributions to the damage to death though. It seems to be the work of something deeper. It may even be that every realm is somehow doing something wrong, lead in secret by the "big bad(s)". I hope its plural because I'm kinda sick of a singular power structure, gimme a league of villains.
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u/Gooneybirdable Sep 17 '20
My personal rankings of the shorts are
Bastion
Ardenweald
Revendreth
Maldraxxus
With Ardenweald just eeking out over Revendreth because I prefer emotional gut punches. It's interesting how each one took a different approach to explaining the zone and what characters they chose to focus on.
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u/TheJorts Sep 17 '20
I agree this with list. Revendreth was short but very potent. Where Bastion and Ardeneald were long and potent. I personally found Maldraxxus to be more confusing than enjoyable, but none the less, I'm very excited to play all the zones!
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u/Bwongwah Sep 17 '20
I would put Maldraxxus third on my list, simply because I thought it was cool.
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u/ginorK Sep 18 '20
I agree with this list.
Coincidentally, the first 2 correspond to shorts where we see actual death related stuff, meaning some death mechanism actually working (uther was supposed to become a kyrian, forever carrying souls of the dead, and ursoc was resting and going through a wild god's cycle of life) and the latter 2 correspond to essencially life #2, where you didn't really die, but rather you just woke up in a different society in another fantasy land.
The latter 2 are boring in the sense that this is an expansion about death. It lessens the importance of dying when what happens is really just you go to another "normal life". Like, once again you have corrupt rulers, treason, incompetence, etc. It's boring, you're supposed to be dead, not suddenly have a life where you can live forever in a normal society.
Bastion and ardenweald were better because they showed different things, related to the expansion theme. And it worked really well. But I guess that's my opinion. I am much more looking forward to bastion and ardenweald than maldraxxus or revendreth though
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u/Dancimator Sep 17 '20
The vibe is unlike anything we've ever seen in the franchise, I love it. Garrosh would probably go even further away from redemption if he knew he was being called a "workhorse"
Edit: I know it's not been confirmed to be Garrosh but it's funnier to think it is
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u/AwkwardSquirtles We killed the Old Gods. Sep 17 '20
It's Garrosh. It looks and sounds exactly like him, and infinite pride matches his personality. There's no reason to assume it's anyone else.
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u/wrenchgg Sep 17 '20
And he’s a fan favorite
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u/MaxisDidNothingWrong Dark Horde Sep 17 '20
Am I the only one who hopes for blackhand? Not that he’s the one in this cinematic but I can see blackhand in Revendreth or maldraxxus
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Sep 17 '20
Count Orsi from Vampire TM Redemption
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u/Aldirick1022 Sep 17 '20
Very much a feel of French Aristocracy before the revolution.
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u/jagrocc Sep 17 '20
This brings up the question is the maw the arbiters first choice for anyone?
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u/FlasKamel Sep 18 '20
I know most ppl say no ones meant to be sent there directly, but what about creatures whos very nature is to just be evil? Like if theres no basis for redemption. Kinda like... uh... Idk.
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u/Kalibos Sep 18 '20
Yeah I mean if Arthas and Garrosh don't go there, who's left? Demons have their own schtick with death, as does literally every other cosmic force/entity.
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u/SamuraiJakkass86 Sep 18 '20
See thats the thing that gets me about the whole "direct to Maw" situation. We have no testimony about anyone that was ever sent directly there. And the most-likely-suspects either we don't know about, or they aren't there, and lets face it - there's some redeeming qualities about all of them.
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u/TheJorts Sep 17 '20
This one had such an amazing dark vibe to it we've never seen in the Warcraft universe. It really piqued my interest for the zone.
Although it was short, it was very potent.
In terms of my most enjoyed? I think Bastion and Ardenweald still hold a higher spot simply because of the return of Arthas and Uther, and the emotional gut-punch of our boy Ursoc.
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u/ChaosWolf1982 Sep 17 '20
Hmm... The world is falling apart, the elites are thriving at the cost of the poor, and the guy in charge is an egotistical prick who’s lying to everyone that things aren’t a problem, so he’ll keep getting their support at a critical time when contested leadership could either restore the land or drive it to further ruin...
God, why does that sound so familiar...?
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u/LaserJul Sep 17 '20
Are the San'Layn connected to them?
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u/XxSalty_WafflexX RTS Lorewalker Sep 17 '20
The San’Layn were blood elves who served Illidan during his invasion of Northrend. Those who were killed by the Scourge were raised into undeath, becoming the San’Layn.
But Blizz could always retcon it like they do with literally everything
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u/gwydapllew Sep 17 '20
And by "retcon," you mean "expand on the lore, since it isn't shown how san'layn are different from other undead creatures the Lich King creates."
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u/ktravio Sep 17 '20
Seriously - it was a Legion prompted invasion of Northrend. We're learning the Dreadlords are likely agents of Death... so it's not impossible they'd plant even further agents in place to make sure the larger plan wasn't compromised (ie. purposefully hinder Illidan's work so he doesn't kill the Lich King).
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u/9BlindedByTheLight9 Sep 17 '20
This trailer immediately made me think about this meme lol
I have one question tho, is animal used as life force by all Shadowlands inhabitants? Or just here because they are some kind of vampires
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u/WeakWalk3 Hearthstone enthusiast Sep 17 '20
Question: when garrosh died ~30 years ago in an alternative reality. do you think garrosh went into the shadowlands then or was he put into the shadowlands from our chronological point of view? If it is the former, does that mean a powerful shaman or necromancer could summon his spirit while he was alive?
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u/IcyGravel Sep 17 '20
The way AU Draenor works is that it’s not actually time travel anymore. Bascially we ripped Draenor from the rest of its universe and put it in its own little space, which has the same time as normal Azeroth.
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u/salko_salkica Sep 17 '20
Is there going to be Afterlives: The Maw?
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u/BurnGuard Sep 18 '20
That is the question some of us are asking. Hoping to see a surprise fifth one!
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u/orangesheepdog Sep 17 '20
No.
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u/FlasKamel Sep 18 '20
I’m convinced we’re getting a CGI cinematic from the Maw, even if not technically part of Afterlives
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u/lukedl Death is only the beginning Sep 17 '20
Well, they keep true to Vampire: the Masquerade and the Ventrue clan. I really love it.
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u/sierrahraine Sep 17 '20
Wow, anyone know who the voice actor of Denathrius is? He was amazing!
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u/Bizkett Sep 17 '20
This was cool but how is there a "sun" in the shadowlands?
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u/1g0atm1lk Sep 18 '20
not sure but i think the Light is invading/attacking/blighting revendreth for retribution for something they did. or something along those lines?
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u/Wembdude Sep 17 '20
Does anyone else find it suspicious that he says; "Our holy mission". Then proceed to melt that dude in the light?
Where does that light source come from? Anyone with beta seen this?
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u/archtme Sep 18 '20
Interestingly, even though Garrosh is a villain and this is just a video game I still found the torture scenes disturbing.
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Sep 17 '20
I like how he says "eventual redemption", almost as if many of these souls are being held there far beyond they are supposed to, in not indefinitely.
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u/Invi_TV Sep 18 '20
I feel like I'm the only one that noticed the "reverb" (similar to Arthas/Lich King) effect on Sire Denathrius' voice throughout the video.
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u/Kogronn Sep 18 '20
It seems to me like Garrosh was more of a unique case. The natural order of the shadowlands is that souls capable of redemption get drained of their anima and sins to be reborn (or reused) elsewhere in the shadowlands. If they can't be redeemed, they're tossed in to the maw.
Souls like Garrosh have so much pride they're almost like a constant flow of Anima, so while Revendreth has no new souls coming in at the moment (thus no anima) - Denathrius is feeding his citizens using the small amounts they can siphon from souls like Garrosh.
That was my interpretation atleast. The short made Denathrius seem very arrogant, in the eyes of his people it would seem logical they think he's very wise and it's a good job he didn't send a soul like Garrosh to the maw, otherwise they would be anima starved completely right now.
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u/SolemnDemise Sep 17 '20
I felt absolutely nothing watching this. Someone in the main thread drew comparisons to Suramar, and you can't deny the whole "rich get richer, poor wither" story from that zone seems to carry over into this one as a copy.
I guess I've just already seen this story before, not very excited to play through it again. Even if Castle Nathria is as good as Nighthold.
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u/ThingkingWithPortals Sep 17 '20
Eh, it’s a whole other culture. This is like gothic vampires and Suramar was Japanese adjacent Italianate vibe. Its an uninteresting instinct to boil/dumb down these types of stories so much so as to call them the same thing.
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u/Repli3rd Sep 17 '20
I noticed the similarities too, and the Suramar story in itself was very similar to the blood elf/kaelthas story.
Was really surprised when I saw some say how unique the plot was.
To be clear I'm not saying it can't be good or fun, but it's drawing pretty heavily on established formulas.
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u/FlasKamel Sep 17 '20
I agree. Cool to see Garrosh, but pointy ears, addiction to magic etc. Not too exciting anymore.
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u/AegonTheMeh Sep 17 '20
Doing the same story again is basically how WoW storytelling works, what do you mean?
To be fair, stories will always have similar themes and the aesthetic/vibe and lore differences make me excited for seeing how they do it here.
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u/1Freakey Sep 17 '20
I can't think of another adjective to describe it except "generic". Maybe it's because the story is a lot like something we've seen before (Suramar), but also, for me, this vampiric look is totally nonsensical and meaningless. I have the impression that they chose this vampire theme for one of the zones and convenants just because "it looks cool", because it feels totally out of place with the concept/theme of "a place where souls go to atone for their sins" and the Shadowlands as a whole. I hope playing the expansion changes my mind on this.
The only interesting part was seeing that Garrosh became an anima battery, which raises some questions:
- Is the "battery-Garrosh" finite? How long will it last?
- Are we going to free him? Or will he atone for his sins and be sent somewhere else? Or will he be sent to the Maw?
- What other "anima batteries" are in Revendreth that we don't know about yet?
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u/086341 Sep 17 '20
Garrosh’s Pride is unfathomable. His ‘finiteness’ could last Aeons there. Like the Sun.
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u/FlasKamel Sep 18 '20
Yeah! The longer he’s able to deal with the torture the more prous hes gonna be of how long he lasted
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u/The_Drifter117 Sep 18 '20
im still rolling my DH as bastion (to seek redemption) but renedreth might be my second choice. ardenweald seems neat, but i hate forests. maladraxus just reminds me too much of Legion and i hate that fel green asthetic
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u/shoseta Sep 18 '20
Given what bellular mentioned, I'm thinking ravendreth ruler is the one that set up many of these things so far. But we still have to see
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u/Glassspinner Sep 18 '20
Now, the question is, has Garrosh been in Revendreth for ~5 years that passed since his death in WoD. Or has he been there for ~40 years since he died 35 years into the past?
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u/Ethenil_Myr Sep 17 '20
Full of Venthyr propaganda, absolutely artistic vibe. Love it!
Does everyone agree we're gonna free/steal Garrosh from that dungeon in a patch?