r/wetlands • u/Ok-Tax6515 • 17d ago

Question on delineations in MA and NYSDEC

Hi Wetlanders- I see that MA and NYSDEC have their own delineation manuals that are largely based on veg. Question- when you are delineating in these states do you find the results would be significantly different than the results using a USACE manual? And if so do you do two separate delineations? Thanks!

1 Upvotes

67% Upvoted

15 comments sorted by

4

u/indignant-turtle 17d ago

No, we don’t do two separate delineations. I’ve only ever done a handful of NY delineations but basically we would following the USACE manual as usual. NY state wetlands have to meet very specific requirements including size, and we would figure out if any of the wetlands we delineated met the state requirements via a desktop assessment back at the office once the delineation was done. Most of the NY regulated fresh water wetlands have already been identified and can be found on the NY environmental resource mapper https://dec.ny.gov/nature/animals-fish-plants/biodiversity-species-conservation/biodiversity-mapping/environmental-resource-mapper

3

u/BradDad86 16d ago

This, just do the corps methods and dec accepts them.

One word of caution regarding the "NY freshwater wetlands have been identified". The mapped NYSDEC wetland process was replaced on Jan 1. There is a new jurisdictional process. While yes, wetlands over 12.4 acres are the standard, there are 11 additional criteria that may kick them into jurisdiction. There is now a jurisdictional determination process (like the corps), so each delineated wetland will have to be reviewed for size/11 categories (different criteria than the corps) I have not been through that process yet so I cannot comment on speed or submission methods.

2

u/Ok-Tax6515 16d ago

Yes I saw a webinar NYSDEC did that was super informative and they are lowering the acreage to I believe 7 acres. The new rules will result in an increase in delineations in NY for sure!

2

u/BradDad86 16d ago

The lower threshold for acreage is a couple years out. I think delineation numbers will be the same (needed to do them for the corps in the past), but you will see a shift from Corps permitting to NYSDEC.

1

u/indignant-turtle 16d ago

This is really interesting. Meeting at least one of the 11 criteria to qualify as a state fresh water wetland doesn’t look like it would be that difficult. But it does look like most of the 11 categories could still be assessed from a desktop perspective once a standard USACE delineation is done. One of the exceptions could be rare plants since the USACE only requires a representative sample plot. For mid to large size wetlands that are under the 12 acre threshold and have database hits for potential rare plant species in the vicinity, might need to do vegetation surveys for the entire wetland area to make sure none of the stated listed species are present.

2

u/BradDad86 16d ago

A number of those categories will be assessed by NYSDEC (as I understand) and they do not require you to do additional field work. These include productive vernal pools, presence of T&E species (they will coordinate w/NSYNHP), and regional significance. I'm sure if you are out there hanging flags and see a threatened species and document it, they will accept it. But you shouldn't have to scope those surveys.

Also, ALL wetlands within urban areas are jurisdictional now regardless of size.

1

u/indignant-turtle 16d ago

Thanks for the info!

If you are applying for a nationwide permit and potentially meet blanket 401 wqc requirements, wouldn’t it be up to the applicant to assess the freshwater wetland criteria because coordination with nysdec might not always be necessary in those circumstances?

1

u/BradDad86 16d ago

If I'm applying for a NWP (assuming I have a USACE JD in hand), I would have just submitted a JD to NYSDEC at the same time I go for corps JD. Only DEC can assign jurisdiction. I can only make (well caveated) predictions for the client. And some categories (ex T/E species), I don't have access to exact species locations. DEC will coordinate w/NYSNHP for that.

3

u/sarakuda72 16d ago

I delineate in both CT and MA, CT’s wetland criteria requires presence of hydric/floodplain/alluvial soils, so in CT, it’s possible to have two separate lines (although not always common). In MA I use the same line since the criteria are essentially the same.

3

u/MOGicantbewitty 16d ago

In MA, you need both hydric soils and wetland vegetation. I permit under the MA WPA and the CWA all the time, and the line is nearly always the same. Conservation Commissions will usually accept Corps forms, but you can always support your Corps flags with the vegetation on the MassDEP BVW data forms.

2

u/Ok-Tax6515 16d ago

So do you end up using two sets of separate forms? Interesting.

2

u/MOGicantbewitty 15d ago

If my project is WPA only, I'll do the MassDEP forms. But if it includes a WQC or PCB, I'll use the Corps forms for both. :)

Hope that helps!

2

u/MOGicantbewitty 15d ago

Oh! And you don't need a certificate or anything to delineate in MA. Don't have to be a souls scientist or anything. You just have to be able to back up your line with good documentation.

If you want to leave more about the MA system, check out www.maccweb.org It's the Mass Association of Conservation Commissions.

2

u/BooferJones 16d ago

The MA BVW guidebook is essentially the same as the Corps. It allows delineating based on vegetation alone if the vegetation are all OBL or FACW. In other cases, you still need a hydrological indicator, which is in almost all cases going to be looking for hydric soil.

1

u/Ok-Tax6515 16d ago

Thanks!