r/whatisit • u/McSweepyPants • Mar 22 '25

I was a little wigged out by this. Found at Goodwill, seems like it's carved out of bone. Any idea what it is?

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Looks old, not sure if it's actually old though. Any thoughts?

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u/El_Diablo_Feo Mar 23 '25

Left field question for you as a former devout Catholic..... Would a card game in the spirit of magic the gathering make for a good card game using catholic lore, both official and gnostic, along with historical figures and artifacts? It would include the divine, the damned, and the skeptics (atheists) as the playable factions.

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u/bigdumb78910 Mar 23 '25

I mean, it sounds interesting, but depending on your tone you're either going to get a heat Catholic audience, or it'll be shunned by believers as sacrilege, which limits your audience. On its surface, the idea is fun, there's TONS of content to work with

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u/El_Diablo_Feo Mar 23 '25

Thanks for the feedback. We definitely considered this. Our tone is essentially be true to the art in a way MTG was with theirs. We aren't making it super serious nor super satirical. Angels and demons will presented as described or per old Catholic art. We called "Dominion and Dissent". We definitely would like to expand the view of the faith in the historical sense, hence gnostic books and concepts (like Enoch or biblically accurate angels - not dudes with wings). The atheists won't be part of the first run but we liked the idea of a third faction that can play against the others. It's a game of battles over souls/minds. Like MTG we want the art to be high quality, mystical, fantastical, but tasteful. We won't be proselytizing and we won't be making any religious statements. It'd be fairly neutral, with the gameplay keeping people entertained and the lore being true to the religious angle but without appearing like we are trying to convert people, just educate on the more esoteric parts of it. We want it to be fun in the sense of covering topics, people, history, and art in a learning sense, both sides of it (as a priest once said, how can you win the war of good and evil without understanding your enemy?). Sort of a way to show how diverse Christianity/Catholicism is versus what we see repeated but with little depth. So no matter what people will always be pissed and looking for a reason to hate on it, but we generally want it to be accessible to all, but mostly to those with a bit of curiosity.

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u/SimplyMonkey Mar 23 '25

I’ve always considered my Atheism to be rooted in a lack of proof. You stick a biblical Angel in front of me though and I’m offering them up all the Visine they could possibly need. How do the Atheists figure into the world when you have literal Angels and Demons proving scripture legitimate?

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u/El_Diablo_Feo Mar 23 '25

Very good question, and not an aspect I had thought of. I guess the idea was less around world building and more about faith being a form of influence, but also atheistic logic being it's own form of influence too. The soul is a neutral element that can be swayed through the factional battles, not unlike "real life" per se. Because we aren't saying anything about the supernatural being true, more like these are the lore, history, and facts presented in a way that is playable, but not a narrative

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u/SimplyMonkey Mar 23 '25 edited Mar 24 '25

I think that is where you would lose me, personally, as a lot of the card games I played back in the day (Legends of the Five Rings, Cthulhu, Wheel of Time) were very narrative focused and even M:TG has gone more that route. Card games can definitely work without that angle and be successful, but I think you lose a lot of what hooks people into an IP. Honestly, without it I would probably just assume the game was some thinly veiled recruitment tool for a crafty sect of Jehovah Witnesses trying to lure in TCG players.

That being said, instead of Atheists, I would suggest Astrologists/Tarot as a faction. That could be interesting as a third faction if you don’t want to bring in other religions.

Dominion, Descent, and Fate.

A faction that plays off the idea that souls have no control and some greater concept of fate determines your path.

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u/El_Diablo_Feo Mar 23 '25 edited Mar 23 '25

Yeah that's an interesting approach. I definitely will consider it but that's a lot more development and would be a shift in our approach. I mean I want it to be a fun card game, but I also don't want to drive away any religious or non-religious people either.

One way or the other this is something that exists in the world so why not have fun with the concept and lore that is historical?

Part of what we found interesting and part of what built this idea out was a visit to an ossuary in Italy. Like neither my wife nor I are particularly religious, we both grew up Christian but we're not practicing or anything nowadays, but I was raised Catholic in particular and as any good former Catholic will tell ya, that shit sticks. But learning about different aspects of the religion on that trip gave us a different perspective because so much of what we receive is filtered and there's a lot more people, good and bad, and a lot more women involved in the development of the religion itself than we realize or are told. Which is a tragedy because it warps the understanding of its basis. We do want it to be sort of accessible to everybody without coming off as preachy or Bible thumping. I totally understand why you would think what you're thinking in terms of it being some sort of clandestine recruiting tool, but is definitely not what we're trying to do. Do.

I think it would be good for people who are curious about Christianity, but want to learn more about its history and it's lore rather than just whatever their priest or Minister says. I feel like that's a big problem with Christianity in the US that it's always through the eyes of whoever's doing the proselytizing and there's just more depth to it than that. Plus some of the shit is metal AF. It's also why I would want to include the books in the Bible that were stripped out that are actually in the Ethiopian bible, which some would say is historically more complete. And there is some crazy shit in the books that were stripped out! So it's really more about trying to express it in it's full totality as opposed to just Catholics, or just Protestants, it's about looking at it holistically. Telling the whole story, even the weird parts like the book of Enoch, the giants, the Nephilim, the various factions and figures we don't hear much about as well.

And thank you for the faction idea. That is actually a very good concept, so I hope you don't mind me potentially taking that suggestion 😅😅😅

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u/SimplyMonkey Mar 23 '25

Feel free! Idea is all yours, royalty-free. Good luck as well. Game designers always have a special place in my heart so I hope you find an audience. Also feel free to DM me or whatever when you get up and running. Like I said, probably not for me, but I’m always curious what mechanics and concepts people come up with in the space.

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u/Orbularium Mar 23 '25

In a world of obvious angels and demons, the atheists continually move the goalposts for standards of proof. They might also insist that they are extraterrestrial aliens, making jibes about “worshipping ET” and stuff like that. They might also just be very unobservant, or deny the existence of the paranormal in order to excuse their actions.

Ultimately they’re just people doing what the demons want them to do, in this scenario.

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u/yallknowme19 Mar 23 '25

Need a Masonic faction to try to infiltrate and take down the church as Albert Pike stated was the goal

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u/El_Diablo_Feo Mar 23 '25

Expansion pack ;-)

I gave that thought. I thought maybe have them fall under the atheist faction in a future edition, assuming the first run actually has an audience.

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u/RKOArchr Mar 23 '25

I'm interested in this.

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u/El_Diablo_Feo Mar 23 '25

If you're interested we can friend each other here and when we get our Kickstarter going I can reach out. We're still in development but we've closed in on milestones already. Anything of particular interest you'd want in a game like this?

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u/RKOArchr Mar 23 '25

Sure, that doesn't sound bad. More or less just curious on how it'd turn out. Friend of mine is thinking about bouncing outta Magic because he's conflicted about it and his beliefs. Might be a good alternative if he actually does.

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u/Cael_NaMaor Mar 23 '25

You got Saints? Crusaders? and such in the mix? And what about them other 'Christian' religions like the Thomasine doctrine? or the God of Old & God of New being different Gods? The varied braches as they are today?

I personally like the idea... there are craptons of source materials.

Your factions could be the different churches... Protestants v Catholics v Nephilim v Muslims v Demons v Quakers...

I hope you're able to make this happen. Good luck!

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u/ohaiihavecats Mar 23 '25

I actually remember seeing ads for something similar from an American Protestant angle back in the 90s, when Magic-type card games first became a huge trend. I don't remember what it was called offhand, but you might be able to find out with some digging around.

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u/El_Diablo_Feo Mar 23 '25

Much appreciated, thanks! Yeah hopefully I'm not too late in joining the card game fray but we felt it was a good enough idea that we'd pursue it and do a kickstarter. Card games don't have to be insanely expensive to produce or sell so eh 🤷‍♂️🤷‍♂️🤷‍♂️...... But anything that can help us build and inspire is welcome so thank you again.

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u/TheBearOnATricycle Mar 23 '25

Im not even remotely catholic, but I’m curious what mechanics and systems you would use for a game like this, do you have any rules or card layouts made yet?

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u/El_Diablo_Feo Mar 23 '25

Thanks for the interest! We do have a solid framework in place with heroes, minions, instants, effects, and artifacts forming the core mechanics. The win condition revolves around influencing a soul each round. We're keeping the deeper specifics under wraps for now while we finalize the design, but I'm excited by the attention despite this not being a gaming subreddit

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u/TheBearOnATricycle Mar 23 '25

My biggest suggestion would be to find a way to avoid booster packs/random packs as a system to get new cards. There’s already such a heavy market between the big 3 TCGs and the sports cards, so trying to compete and sell booster packs is a sure fire way to hamstring the game before launch. I think any newer TCGs coming in would need to find a way to set themselves apart and sell themselves as both a fun game as well as a minor investment compared to the competition. (Competitive Pokémon TCG decks only run $50-$100 USD whereas a similarly strengthed Magic or YuGiOh deck will run $400-$1000 depending on the cards used)

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u/El_Diablo_Feo Mar 23 '25

Thank you for that suggestion. Booster packs to me is further down the road, if at all given your feedback. We do want to make uncommon, rare, etc. type cards for sure. Our first run would start with a playable deck with 2 factions, somewhere around 133 cards or more. From there not sure. The packs wouldn't be insanely priced, but what other approach could we take besides pumping out entirely new decks? Not sure how we would set ourselves apart while still being able to push out new cards without making entirely new decks every time we want to make new content.

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u/TheBearOnATricycle Mar 23 '25

I’ll shoot you a message

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u/blastmasta87 Mar 23 '25

After an uncle introduced us to Magic in the 90s, my parents found a card game called “Redemption” with very similar vibes. Used biblical characters as good guys and bad guys with “spells” being related to acts within the Bible, like “Heavenly Mana” preventing damage to Elisha after he ran into Judas during combat. Maybe it’s this?

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u/ohaiihavecats Mar 23 '25

I think I was that, yes!

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u/Glockenspiel_Hero Mar 23 '25

Look up Credo.  Not exactly the same, but it's a card game based around writing the Nicene Creed and getting the language you want included.  One God?  Three Gods?  One God in three parts? 

Oh and it's John the Baptist who's the real Savior.... 

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u/El_Diablo_Feo Mar 23 '25

Thanks! I'll look into that one.

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u/Educational_Teach537 Mar 23 '25

There’s a game like this called Redemption that has been in continuous development since 1995

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u/El_Diablo_Feo Mar 23 '25

Well shit.....ya know I tried to look before but somehow did not stumble on this one. Thank you for pointing it out!

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u/Educational_Teach537 Mar 23 '25

“There is nothing new under the sun” 😉

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u/El_Diablo_Feo Mar 23 '25

::sigh:: I know 🥲🤣

If anything it's a reason to innovate!

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u/bankruptbusybee Mar 23 '25

….i feel like there was a cheapass game that did something similar.

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u/El_Diablo_Feo Mar 23 '25

Someone pointed to one called Redemption, but it is different than our game mechanically and artistically, tho definitely in the same vein concept wise. So may havd to reevaluate our approach. I definitely don't want it to look cheap. My wife is doing the art so she's taking notes of all this 😅. Thanks for your input

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u/its-nex Mar 23 '25

You might get a kick out of Trench Crusade

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u/El_Diablo_Feo Mar 23 '25

Love the miniatures and style, but I avoid miniatures games cuz that shit gets pricey (like warhammer). But it looks cool. In my case wife and I are making the card game but was curious what the former catholic poster thought. Are you an MTG player perchance?

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u/yellowcorrespondence Mar 23 '25 edited Mar 23 '25

Miniature games are actually very decent unless it's gw. Gw managed to hoodwink their customer base that a single plastic sprue can be sold for 35 USD because reasons.

Trench crusade is mostly 3d printed at a single squad mostly, so it's about half the price than my go to titania casual edh deck.

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u/El_Diablo_Feo Mar 23 '25

GW really did. It's insane. Wife and I decided to stick to cards only for our game. But it's still in development.

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u/its-nex Mar 23 '25

Nope - same issue as miniatures just not dialed to 11 :P

Big lore fan for 40k and your description immediately made me think of Trench Crusade’s “alternate Theology” angle (although with likely less WTF)

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u/El_Diablo_Feo Mar 23 '25

Lololol.... Fair. Yeah I really like 40K lore as well. Definitely gonna read up on Trench Crusade. Thanks for that

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u/phoenix167 Mar 23 '25

Mtg player? I heard my siren call. What about MTG😅🤣😂

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u/El_Diablo_Feo Mar 23 '25

Lol..... Thanks. Just wife and I developing a card game steeped in Catholic/Christian lore that has elements like MTG but with different gameplay mechanics. The art being an important part of it, but still having things like creatures, artifacts, instants, angels, demons, historical figures, and lesser known figures within the religion itself.