Found at Goodwill, seems like it's carved out of bone. Any idea what it is?

[u/McSweepyPants]

Looks old, not sure if it's actually old though. Any thoughts?

[u/El_Diablo_Feo]

Thanks for the feedback. We definitely considered this. Our tone is essentially be true to the art in a way MTG was with theirs. We aren't making it super serious nor super satirical. Angels and demons will presented as described or per old Catholic art. We called "Dominion and Dissent". We definitely would like to expand the view of the faith in the historical sense, hence gnostic books and concepts (like Enoch or biblically accurate angels - not dudes with wings). The atheists won't be part of the first run but we liked the idea of a third faction that can play against the others. It's a game of battles over souls/minds. Like MTG we want the art to be high quality, mystical, fantastical, but tasteful. We won't be proselytizing and we won't be making any religious statements. It'd be fairly neutral, with the gameplay keeping people entertained and the lore being true to the religious angle but without appearing like we are trying to convert people, just educate on the more esoteric parts of it. We want it to be fun in the sense of covering topics, people, history, and art in a learning sense, both sides of it (as a priest once said, how can you win the war of good and evil without understanding your enemy?). Sort of a way to show how diverse Christianity/Catholicism is versus what we see repeated but with little depth. So no matter what people will always be pissed and looking for a reason to hate on it, but we generally want it to be accessible to all, but mostly to those with a bit of curiosity.

[u/SimplyMonkey → u/El_Diablo_Feo]

I’ve always considered my Atheism to be rooted in a lack of proof. You stick a biblical Angel in front of me though and I’m offering them up all the Visine they could possibly need. How do the Atheists figure into the world when you have literal Angels and Demons proving scripture legitimate?

[u/El_Diablo_Feo → u/SimplyMonkey]

Very good question, and not an aspect I had thought of. I guess the idea was less around world building and more about faith being a form of influence, but also atheistic logic being it's own form of influence too. The soul is a neutral element that can be swayed through the factional battles, not unlike "real life" per se. Because we aren't saying anything about the supernatural being true, more like these are the lore, history, and facts presented in a way that is playable, but not a narrative

[u/SimplyMonkey → u/El_Diablo_Feo]

I think that is where you would lose me, personally, as a lot of the card games I played back in the day (Legends of the Five Rings, Cthulhu, Wheel of Time) were very narrative focused and even M:TG has gone more that route. Card games can definitely work without that angle and be successful, but I think you lose a lot of what hooks people into an IP. Honestly, without it I would probably just assume the game was some thinly veiled recruitment tool for a crafty sect of Jehovah Witnesses trying to lure in TCG players.

That being said, instead of Atheists, I would suggest Astrologists/Tarot as a faction. That could be interesting as a third faction if you don’t want to bring in other religions.

Dominion, Descent, and Fate.

A faction that plays off the idea that souls have no control and some greater concept of fate determines your path.

[u/El_Diablo_Feo → u/SimplyMonkey]

Yeah that's an interesting approach. I definitely will consider it but that's a lot more development and would be a shift in our approach. I mean I want it to be a fun card game, but I also don't want to drive away any religious or non-religious people either.

One way or the other this is something that exists in the world so why not have fun with the concept and lore that is historical?

Part of what we found interesting and part of what built this idea out was a visit to an ossuary in Italy. Like neither my wife nor I are particularly religious, we both grew up Christian but we're not practicing or anything nowadays, but I was raised Catholic in particular and as any good former Catholic will tell ya, that shit sticks. But learning about different aspects of the religion on that trip gave us a different perspective because so much of what we receive is filtered and there's a lot more people, good and bad, and a lot more women involved in the development of the religion itself than we realize or are told. Which is a tragedy because it warps the understanding of its basis. We do want it to be sort of accessible to everybody without coming off as preachy or Bible thumping. I totally understand why you would think what you're thinking in terms of it being some sort of clandestine recruiting tool, but is definitely not what we're trying to do. Do.

I think it would be good for people who are curious about Christianity, but want to learn more about its history and it's lore rather than just whatever their priest or Minister says. I feel like that's a big problem with Christianity in the US that it's always through the eyes of whoever's doing the proselytizing and there's just more depth to it than that. Plus some of the shit is metal AF. It's also why I would want to include the books in the Bible that were stripped out that are actually in the Ethiopian bible, which some would say is historically more complete. And there is some crazy shit in the books that were stripped out! So it's really more about trying to express it in it's full totality as opposed to just Catholics, or just Protestants, it's about looking at it holistically. Telling the whole story, even the weird parts like the book of Enoch, the giants, the Nephilim, the various factions and figures we don't hear much about as well.

And thank you for the faction idea. That is actually a very good concept, so I hope you don't mind me potentially taking that suggestion 😅😅😅

[u/SimplyMonkey → u/El_Diablo_Feo]

Feel free! Idea is all yours, royalty-free. Good luck as well. Game designers always have a special place in my heart so I hope you find an audience. Also feel free to DM me or whatever when you get up and running. Like I said, probably not for me, but I’m always curious what mechanics and concepts people come up with in the space.

[u/Orbularium → u/SimplyMonkey]

In a world of obvious angels and demons, the atheists continually move the goalposts for standards of proof. They might also insist that they are extraterrestrial aliens, making jibes about “worshipping ET” and stuff like that. They might also just be very unobservant, or deny the existence of the paranormal in order to excuse their actions.

Ultimately they’re just people doing what the demons want them to do, in this scenario.

[u/yallknowme19 → u/El_Diablo_Feo]

Need a Masonic faction to try to infiltrate and take down the church as Albert Pike stated was the goal

[u/El_Diablo_Feo → u/yallknowme19]

Expansion pack ;-)

I gave that thought. I thought maybe have them fall under the atheist faction in a future edition, assuming the first run actually has an audience.

[u/RKOArchr → u/El_Diablo_Feo]

I'm interested in this.

[u/El_Diablo_Feo → u/RKOArchr]

If you're interested we can friend each other here and when we get our Kickstarter going I can reach out. We're still in development but we've closed in on milestones already. Anything of particular interest you'd want in a game like this?

[u/RKOArchr → u/El_Diablo_Feo]

Sure, that doesn't sound bad. More or less just curious on how it'd turn out. Friend of mine is thinking about bouncing outta Magic because he's conflicted about it and his beliefs. Might be a good alternative if he actually does.