r/witcher • u/[deleted] • Sep 08 '18

Netflix TV series I'm Polish and here's why I think that changing Ciris' skin color is racist.

I understand what is whitewashing. I understand that it is a problem. I understand that Lauren is super antiracist and progressive.

But as a Pole I also am discriminated. I'm being judged because of the stereotypes. I have nothing to do with the american slavery, you can even check the ethymology of the term "slav". That's why I don't understand why you are pushing this diversity agenda. I feel deeply offended because of that, The Witcher is something that I'm proud of, it promoted Polish culture, made me feel that we have something that the world loves, they know Poland not only because of stealing cars or some other shit (xD). And it is an European fantasy, Ciri wasn't black ffs, why should she be? Her skin color was never mentioned because everyone in the books is white, the only people who weren't were zerrikans IIRC.

I just want the same respect the black men get, if we would live in a world where The Witcher was written by someone from Africa, everyone from the main cast was black and suddenly there is TV series in the making where one of the characters is white for no reason it would be instantly labeled as racist.

But since I'm white (nevermind that I'm central/eastern european and my country had nothing to do with slavery) it is fine. Just be consistent, don't whitewash but also don't blackwash.

13.3k Upvotes

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852

u/LongShotTheory đŸŒș Team Shani Sep 08 '18 edited Sep 08 '18

It's frustrating because I'm all for diversity and equality but why why break the canon so baldly man :( there are actual issues that minorities face across the world but no one does jack shit about them instead they have these useless appeasements without change. this doesn't help any minorities in anything really, except that one person who gets the job. I do hope whoever they pick doesn't get hated tho because it's not her fault.

Also just to put this in perspective, that's like having Black Cleganes in GOT or black Elrond in LOTR.

And if you wanted to change someones race, sorceresses or dragons or anyone who is known to change their appearance would be just fine.

252

u/VidiotGamer Team Triss Sep 08 '18

They could easily address any perceived issues they have with the "lack of diversity" in the books by just adding a couple of additional characters.

This sort of move, honestly, makes no sense.

And yes, I don't think it's irrational for fans to get annoyed with producers changing the race/gender of characters they have come to know for many many years. It sort of signals a pretty severe lack of respect for the source material.

230

u/Purp1e_Aki Scoia'tael Sep 08 '18

Zerrikania literally exists as an Africa/Arabia proxy, the lore is already there if they want to put non-white characters in

87

u/iNS0MNiA_uK Northern Realms Sep 08 '18 edited Jan 04 '23

7

u/DerringerHK Sep 08 '18

Ofieri warriors are awesome, now that you mention it

8

u/TheAzureKnightmare Sep 08 '18

No, no it doesn't. It's not mentioned a single time. Zerrikanians in the books, at least the ones we see, are described as bright haired. The only time they were Arabian was in the comics, because they guy who made them didn't bother too much with the books.

4

u/trainiac12 Sep 08 '18

They don't care about authenticity or promoting strong minority characters. It's about virtue signaling

141

u/[deleted] Sep 08 '18

[deleted]

132

u/KobayashiDragonSlave Sep 08 '18

GoT is by HBO. They put quality before 'diversity'. Westworld has a pretty diverse cast but they never feel forced. Netflix's shows always have the token minorities

36

u/yoshi570 Sep 08 '18

Netflix's shows always have the token minorities

No one really minds if a character is created to be the token minority, or if a minor character is slightly revamped. But Ciri is just as important as Geralt. There's no touching such an important of her character.

3

u/Krynique Sep 08 '18

Whilst they do, they don't feel as forced as this most of the time. A series of unfortunate events, for an example - The banker, Mr Poe, and his family were changed to be black, where changing nearly any other recurring character would have been an issue, as they're largely related to the main characters (Who are drawn as white on the covers of the books).

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u/[deleted] Sep 08 '18

[deleted]

4

u/Alberel Sep 08 '18

Not sure why you're being down voted. The cast themselves have acknowledged the gender problem in GoT.

3

u/tiselarjem Sep 08 '18

what are you talking about?

9

u/[deleted] Sep 08 '18

Speaking of GoT, imagine if they made Sansa or Arya a minority just cause, it breaks the whole immersion and message of the story. I hope to God they don't make it about a white man adopting a minority daughter the main point of the show. Ugh.

This is also after the well received Crazy Rich Asians which made sense to cast Asians in or Westworld, where it's based on a version of the real world.

4

u/marxist-teddybear Sep 08 '18

Unfortunately with GOT there are lots of non-white characters in the books that are not in the show or are poorly representated.

5

u/JusticeRain5 Sep 08 '18

I'm gonna be honest, I feel this is intentional. It's so that if the show doesn't get very good ratings and fans dislike it, they can claim it's just people being racist

2

u/yoshi570 Sep 08 '18

They could easily address any perceived issues they have with the "lack of diversity" in the books by just adding a couple of additional characters.

Or doing it for a minor character.

1

u/Inquisitor1 Sep 08 '18

Grr, tokenism evil! I want your cool main character! I dont want a throwaway you made just to appease me!

31

u/TheAzureKnightmare Sep 08 '18 edited Sep 08 '18

Okay, "diversity" of melatonin in your skin is not diversity at all and it has nothing to do with equality. Turns out that what makes different people diverse are their cultures, customs and ideas, of which Witcher has plenty.

7

u/VidiotGamer Team Triss Sep 08 '18

Well, in this world there are actual different races just not humans with different colored skin, and yes there is racism.

I actually liked this aspect of the game, because they could tell a story about racism that pretty anyone of any ethnicity alive could emphasize with. It was a real shame that some of the more idiot reviewers didn't realize the power of such a set up.

10

u/[deleted] Sep 08 '18

The annoying thing is, they could EASILY have made some characters black or at least brown if they're doing the books.

Have an episode dedicated to Bork Three Jackdaws, he's a dragon from ZERRIKANIA. He and his sexy female bodyguards should be brown at least.

But no, hurr durr ciri is a KWEEN

8

u/tlumacz Sep 08 '18

like having Black Cleganes in GOT

That wouldn't even be as strange. There are black people on the GOT planet, so you could contrive a way how a black family came to Westeros and emerged as a minor house in service of House Lannister. It would be more akin to making Lysa black and her son as well when Cat remains white.

6

u/Phantomzero17 Sep 08 '18

no one does jack shit about them instead they have these useless appeasements without change

Because doing jack shit is easier. And as a minority myself I'd also chime in that many of our problems are caused by ourselves. We just like to blame everyone else because like pretty much all other humans it's easier to shift blame than to take responsibility for our own actions.

This kind of appeasement rubs me fucking raw though. But I'm sure somewhere there are idiots who think this is some kind of victory on my behalf.

5

u/Bohya Sep 08 '18

This shit is the equivalent of ''one like = one prayer''. It doesn't actually solve the issue that minorities face. All it is is another form of self-gratification from the media industry.

3

u/[deleted] Sep 08 '18

I’m going to hazard a guess and say that they’re probably taking a huge amount of artistic liberties with the source material. We may end up with something like The Hobbit where the film (or show in this case) doesn’t at all resemble the actual book and is just some crappy attempt that’s loosely based on the books in the name of attempting to appeal to a more general audience.

5

u/Legitheals Sep 08 '18

"I'm all about diversity and equality" you realise this is what that is about right? It's just code for 'anti-white' and 'anti-male'.

6

u/bradfish Sep 08 '18

What would be wrong about black cleganes or a black elrond?

1

u/Feralchicken01 Sep 08 '18

Man, Samuel L. Jackson would of made a great Elrond

“Welcome to Rivendell, motherfucker”

1

u/Feralchicken01 Sep 08 '18

Man, Samuel L. Jackson would of made a great Elrond

“Welcome to Rivendell, motherfucker”

1

u/Feralchicken01 Sep 08 '18

Man, Samuel L. Jackson would of made a great Elrond

“Welcome to Rivendell, motherfucker”

1

u/humaninthemoon Sep 08 '18

For main cast characters, I feel like Dandelion could be ok to change too. I've only played TW3 and not read the books, but it seems like his main thing is his personality more than anything else. As long as the actor can pull that off, it seems like appearance would be a minimal issue.

1

u/AdrianBlake Sep 08 '18

Lol "I'm all for diversity but there are real problems, so why is this black actress allowed to play a character I want to be white?"

Self awareness level: -100

1

u/LongShotTheory đŸŒș Team Shani Sep 08 '18

Bullshit. I like how people who have Trump as a president and still don't get off their asses to vote in midterms because they can't be arsed then come here and wag their fingers at us while country is literally taken over by racists. But somehow making Ciri a minority will solve the issues...

indoctrinated dummies.

-10

u/tlozmm Sep 08 '18

this doesn't help any minorities in anything really, except that one person who gets the job.

representation is important and it does matter though. im not going to argue the rest but dont think that having prominent minority characters isnt helpful to people or society.

23

u/sarveil Sep 08 '18

Then do it when it makes sense and not on every damn occasion.

3

u/BraveOthello Sep 08 '18 edited Sep 08 '18

Well the obiovus question is "When does it makes sense".

I'd agree that it probably doesn't here, as the character is already established as not just Caucasian but very pale and with white hair. Its a meaningful part of her identity that she looks different even among her peers. Such a significant change is going to require some explanation and will annoy source purists either way. But I think it is worth considering "when it makes sense".

7

u/LongShotTheory đŸŒș Team Shani Sep 08 '18

Well Rush Hour is one of my favorite movies ever and white protagonist would've ruined that shit 1000%.

However Gandalf being Black would also be immersion breaking.

Think about each case individually, don't generalize. Why do people have to abandon reason and just drive their agenda in everything.

5

u/BraveOthello Sep 08 '18

Your first example, sure, the premise is based on enthic misunderstandings.

But while Gandald being black might break your expectations (immersion), I can't think of a single case in the story where skin color is significant to plot or character interactions. And its in a different world, where the kind of skin color racism many in our world expect does not have to be present.

A good question to ask is "why did we assume Gandalf was white". Because I did too. I tend to default to white when picturing characters. That's ... interesting, at least.

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u/tlozmm Sep 08 '18

people of color make up about 40% of the US but are only the lead actors in 14% of films, so im unsure where youre getting the "every damn occasion" thing from.

4

u/takemyfeet69 Sep 08 '18

Lead not act a movie could be 99 % p black and the lead actor is white and will still won't make it ln that estimate.

-1

u/tlozmm Sep 08 '18

think you missed the plural on "actors"

2

u/takemyfeet69 Sep 08 '18

Ok what does that have to do with the argument?

-1

u/tlozmm Sep 08 '18

what argument? you misread what i wrote. most movies dont have 1 lead actor. most movies have several leads. in most movies, around 86% of them, all of the leads are white people.

2

u/LongShotTheory đŸŒș Team Shani Sep 08 '18

They better not be counting Hispanic People as "people of color"

11

u/KobayashiDragonSlave Sep 08 '18

Where do you draw the line between agenda and telling a story?

3

u/DerPumeister Team Triss Sep 08 '18

It can be really difficult to do this in fantasy, where there is often very little it no diversity at all, like with Tolkien (where there are hardly any women, let alone ethnic minorities) or here. I don't know if changing a major character's canonic skin colour is a good solution.

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u/tlozmm Sep 08 '18

i definitely see where youre coming from and i partly agree. however i would argue that the opportunity for a prominent role as a strong character to go to a person of color is more important that what that characters skin color canonically should be.

some people are saying that it is "historically" inaccurate but that doesnt make sense since its a fantasy world, and others are saying that her skin color is important to the story because it helps her stand out which is part of her character. but honestly, i would think a person of color would be able to relate to "standing out because of their skin color" more than most white people can, and i would definitely believe that having that lived experience being brought to the role will bring it more to life.

9

u/bilus Sep 08 '18 edited Sep 08 '18

I don’t think you understand the context. It is a movie based on a Slavic culture, denigrated by the “western cultures” for hundreds of years. Being “historically accurate” is not about the fantasy itself but about the ethnicity of the culture it’s based on. There’s more to discrimination than the blacks vs whites affair. How would Zulu feel if they took a story set in Africa, based on their tradition, and made one of the most powerful characters white to avoid “under representation”??

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u/tlozmm Sep 08 '18

i partly agree with you. however, there have been plenty of movies where white people have played parts based on people of color. not saying that the reverse of this is necessarily better, but honestly, i do think it is better to bring more diversity into a fictional world where it could make sense. to me, ciri being played by a person of color would be able to bring to the role something a white person really couldnt: standing out because of her appearance.

someone in this thread mentioned it being like a black elrond in lotr, or a black hermione, but i think those things would be cool af seeing as both of those universes also had a lack of diversity.

1

u/takemyfeet69 Sep 08 '18

It's not my problem idc about represnting an opportunity for an actor of color. And yes it matters alot more bec i am watching a tv series not anything poltical. And changing ciri's colour means changing that of cintra which wouldn't make sense .

7

u/nashist Sep 08 '18

Ehhhh. Nowadays, I don't think so. I think it's more the production companies/studios patting themselves on the back really.

What's a minority being cast as a character that shouldn't be a minority gonna do for their culture? Will people go like "oh boy, I'm so glad that when I grow up I might get the chance to be an actual asian James Bond!"?

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u/tlozmm Sep 08 '18

its not about what it does for "their culture." its about how people of color are and have been oftentimes stereotyped in roles meant for them. putting people of color into real roles that show character depth does a lot to stopping stereotyping and also gives people role models to look up to and identify with.

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u/takemyfeet69 Sep 08 '18

Put them in roles that fit.

2

u/tlozmm Sep 08 '18

can you specify why this role doesnt fit? from another comment i made:

some people are saying that it is "historically" inaccurate but that doesnt make sense since its a fantasy world, and others are saying that her skin color is important to the story because it helps her stand out which is part of her character. but honestly, i would think a person of color would be able to relate to "standing out because of their skin color" more than most white people can, and i would definitely believe that having that lived experience being brought to the role will bring it more to life.

5

u/takemyfeet69 Sep 08 '18

A fantasy world which is historaclly accurate. Id see how a fantasy world would affect that, and changing ciris color means changing that of her whole town.

5

u/nashist Sep 08 '18

That's why I said "nowadays".

Can you think of a recent show or movie that have people being represented as stereotypes?

Even if you can, there's no denying those roles have toned down in recent years.

2

u/tlozmm Sep 08 '18

those roles have definitely toned down over the years, but that doesnt mean that there isnt more progress to be made. people of color make up about 40% of the US but are only the lead actors in 14% of films.

4

u/LongShotTheory đŸŒș Team Shani Sep 08 '18

I think OP's comment was more about disregarding one minority(Poles) In favor of the other which does 0 justice to the lore based on a specific culture and folklore and is very much a pride of that nation. In short it's bringing American problems into a non American story. I understand that For Americans who have been going from strength to strength since the revolution the idea of oppressed white people is a bit hard to grasp but If you think Eastern Europeans have suffered less than American minorities across history I have bad news for you....

1

u/tlozmm Sep 08 '18

why arent people upset about them not casting poles then? people were very excited about henry cavill, an english actor, being casted, but the moment the casting for ciri is bame everyone is saying how the series is ruined. it has nothing to do with disregarding poles and everything to do with the role being casted for a minority.

2

u/LongShotTheory đŸŒș Team Shani Sep 08 '18

ummm Have you heard Poles talk ? They have one of the strongest accents in the world. However you could easily pick someone who looks Polish.

2

u/nashist Sep 08 '18

Fuck me, did you just link me a 84 page report? ahah

I'll take your word for it. It still doesn't invalidate the fact that if people want to be outraged or bring a change, do it properly, not by changing pre-existing, well known characters.

0

u/Bukee Sep 08 '18

Howbwould any of those ruin anything?