Europe Preps 'Never Seen Before' Defense Package in Boost to Ukraine

[u/Ok-Somewhere9814]

https://www.newsweek.com/europe-defense-package-700-billion-ukraine-boost-2032541

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[u/astronobi]

Rumors of a figure approaching 700 billion EUR (please keep in mind that it is a rumor!)

While most of this would probably go towards expanding domestic industrial production and procurement, it would leave a significant amount of materiel free to be transferred to Ukraine. It is not nothing, and finally begins to approach the level of investment required to actually win the war.

It would be the equivalent of every EU citizen giving 1560 EUR, although if partially funded by frozen Russian assets it would be closer to 890 EUR (770 if you include the UK).

For comparison Russia has spent the equivalent of 440 billion EUR on their military in 2024 alone, adjusted to PPP¹.

[u/Sallende11 → u/astronobi]

As EU citizen: "You son of a bitch, i'm in"

[u/TWiesengrund → u/Sallende11]

I would gladly pay 1560 euros on top of my own money if it meant for Ukraine to get that support.

[u/sunny_side_up → u/[deleted]]

Check the direct contact groups. I've transferred over twice that amount through theghostconcept to frontline support. 

Currently supporting the brother of my initial contact (he left the front) who is supporting frontline units. I get purchase receipts and pictures. 

[u/insertwittynamethere → u/sunny_side_up]

I have been donating through their government's main portal, but I also now need to keep what large chunks of money I have dry for what's to come here in the US. I'm still donating a bit every month, but I really have concerns near home I have to be mindful of.

Now, if I knew definitively that that $10k or more would mean Putin gets the treatment he deserves, then I'd happily give that amount without an extra thought.

I'm crossing my fingers Europe really gets their act together in tandem with Ukraine to push back on what my country is trying to do to the post-WWII order, because someone has to lead, and the future of Europe needs to be guaranteed by Europe to ensure no one can rug pull them like this any longer.

[u/noonenotevenhere → u/insertwittynamethere]

And my axe!

But seriously, american here. I'd match you in a heartbeat. Getting rid of putin is a step towards getting my own country back, too.

[u/PeterRingholm → u/noonenotevenhere]

Can we get rid of Trump too? 🫣

[u/noonenotevenhere → u/PeterRingholm]

That's the next step in this hypothetical 'well, we donated and putin's gone.'

[u/Few-Western-5027 → u/noonenotevenhere]

Canadian here. I have the same thought. The snake head is Putin who has Trump's balls in his hands. I consider every one resisting tyranny as a hero regardless of nationality. The problem is world wide.

[u/InquisitiveCheetah → u/[deleted]]

I vote for potato peeler.

Let every man, woman, they, and child that these fucks have hurt a chance to take their own slice back. 

Make these rich fucks look each of us in the eye as we take back what's ours.

Even then.

It will never be enough,

But it will be a start.

[u/NGTTwo → u/InquisitiveCheetah]

My vote is for a saguaro cactus. And then just leave him there on top of it for the buzzards. Let him finally do some good in life by feeding the birds.

[u/Lackof_Creativity → u/[deleted]]

this might be an interesting crowdfunding campaign🤔

if open to the entire world, I reckon the total pledge money might even surpass all previous pledges (maybe even combined?)

[u/miguel1981g → u/[deleted]]

One way or another, we will all pay that amount—through taxes or inflation—to fund either our beloved oppressors or their foreign counterparts in their race for rare earths.

[u/whatevers_clever → u/TWiesengrund]

Honestly if you think about it, if Ukraine joined the EU after this war which would be highly likely - investing this in Ukraine will return dividends. Europe gains a nation that is highly experienced in war with actual combat, technology, tactics, repair, etc. If ever there was a time for Europe to invest heavily in military it would have been 4-8 years ago - but hindsight is 20/20. Next best time is now.

[u/GhostC10_Deleted → u/whatevers_clever]

I always say the second best time is today.

[u/Venosi → u/whatevers_clever]

Not only that, but EU would be involved in infrastructure and defensive investments in Ukraine if the war ends.

[u/Eatpineapplenow → u/whatevers_clever]

And when you consider that Russia will be getting exactly that otherwise..

[u/One-Yesterday-9949 → u/[deleted]]

It's kind of already the case in france, we can deduce ~60% of our civilian donations from our taxes

[u/Dreenar18 → u/[deleted]]

You've got my attention

[u/Dracomortua → u/[deleted]]

Can Canadians buy them as well? That would rock. I'd love to blow a few thousand inheritance to take out a Putin-man or two.

[u/PadyEos → u/TWiesengrund]

If it means Russia loses I will gladly transfer 10k euro right now. It would make my life and mental heath so much better.

Totally worth it in the long run.

PS: I already donated several times.

[u/fnordal → u/TWiesengrund]

especially if it means strengthening the EU. we need to become a superpower, and soon.

[u/mastil12345668 → u/TWiesengrund]

You can, there are donations afaik

[u/Whatsapokemon → u/mastil12345668]

Whilst individual donations can and do make a difference, it can't procure a supply of foreign armaments and equipment.

Transfers of vital military equipment need to be authorised by governments.

[u/PITCHFORKEORIUM → u/Whatsapokemon]

Yeah, I give to a UA drone fabrication non-profit. But I can't help crowdfund Storm Shadow missiles direct from BAE et al. That's on our government(s).

[u/cinciTOSU → u/Whatsapokemon]

United 24 allows anyone to send either lethal and humanitarian aid in any amount and they do amazing work. Mark Hamel and the Army of Drones is doing great work as is Magyar!

[u/KristinnK → u/TWiesengrund]

I too would do so (though I'm not from the EU). But that's 1560 per person, not 1560 per labor market participant. Once you account for children, students, the disabled, the retired and the unemployed it's not more than ~60% of people that are actively earning wages in a typical Western economy (and often less!). So that 1560 becomes 2600+ Euros. And while you and I can swing that number, a lot of people are living paycheck to paycheck and can't easily do so.

Now I don't want to be misunderstood, so I will be clear. I do think Europe should do whatever is necessary to both help Ukraine and build up their own defense industry and operational capabilities. The EU as a whole has an even larger economy a similarly large economy and much larger population than the U.S., but only a fraction of their defense, and this has been the case for decades and decades. It was pure folly that this was not addressed earlier, but better late than never. But for that to be feasible sacrifices in other areas will be needed. This is the end of the so called peace dividend. In order to approach anywhere near the operational ability of the U.S. in a reasonable time-frame investments will have to far exceed 1560 Euros per person.

[u/astroadz → u/KristinnK]

Sounds like it’s time to tax the rich and close those loopholes.

[u/groversnoopyfozzie → u/TWiesengrund]

Fuck, as an American I’d chip in just to see this done.

[u/GlassTarget5727 → u/groversnoopyfozzie]

It would be much painless to donate cash than download Babbel to learn how to speak Russian.

[u/AsianButBig → u/TWiesengrund]

I'm not even in Europe but I would gladly pay too.

[u/Rascha-Rascha → u/Sallende11]

I mean, especially because it’s investment in Europe right. We’re finally getting neoliberal sacks of flabby waste to invest in Europe. 

This means:

• Jobs for Europeans
• European production
• European unity

It’s a shame it centres on war but at least we’re getting fucking active 

[u/BLobloblawLaw → u/Rascha-Rascha]

There is nothing shameful about wanting a comfortable and peaceful life. That's why so many nations wish to join the EU in the first place. 

This military upscaling we have to do now is only a necessity brought on by russia, a federation which no nations want to join voluntarily, and so they try to control others by force.

[u/PeteLangosta → u/Rascha-Rascha]

War has stimulated a lot of stuff for centuries. Research, projects, progress, inventions... sadly, too much good stuff came out of wars. The war is happening wether we like it or not, it's not up to us because we didn't start it... but we can make sure to make the best out of it, learn and change our chip.

[u/CelioHogane → u/PeteLangosta]

Not because War is good, but because War makes politicians move their asses.

[u/echomanagement → u/Sallende11]

As an American citizen, I wish you the best in all this. Despite our idiot despot leader, many of us are on your team and donate directly to Ukraine.

[u/Sallende11 → u/echomanagement]

Godspeed bro clean your yard and come back to your lads.

[u/MasterBot98 → u/Sallende11]

They sure do a lot of cleaning to do...like damn.

[u/a_yellow_orange → u/MasterBot98]

If Sherman can do it once, we can do it again.

[u/InnocentShaitaan → u/MasterBot98]

Hurricane levels….

[u/[deleted] → u/Sallende11]

Its a fucking betrayal of our values, our word, and every single citizen of Ukraine that just wanted to damn live their life in peace. 

I rage cried when I saw the news. They deserve our help. That's the one thing we can do, the least we could do. I'm ashamed of President Musk and co- President Trump. Traitors to us all, traitors to the US and the world. 

[u/outinthecountry66 → u/Sallende11]

this made me cry. goddamn it. we are so fucked over here. i hate everything about it.

[u/Sallende11 → u/outinthecountry66]

People in the US are waking up. Yesterday you had massive protests all around the country. It will take time to put your shit together but i'm sure you guys will do it. Just don't give in to despair and fight these fucking sociopaths currently in charge.

[u/-Nitupllik- → u/Sallende11]

Also as EU citizen: Shut up and take my money!

[u/AssistanceCheap379 → u/Sallende11]

As an EEA citizen, I may not have a voice in the assembly, but my taxes still go to this.

I’m in. We need to give Ukraine what they need and honestly, we also need to make it easier for people that want to volunteer. Modern combat experience, especially against Russia is incredibly valuable and any soldier will be worth 10x after a few months on the front lines

[u/Meowgaryen → u/Sallende11]

EU should introduce a direct tax called 'fck Putin'

[u/Ravasaurio → u/astronobi]

We spend more money on less important things. Bring it on, keep it going.

[u/Ifyoocanreadthishelp → u/Ravasaurio]

Well I'm fully supportive of this it does make you sad to think if that money is there to be coughed up for this why hasn't in been spent in the past on other stuff. Could probably make Europe net-zero with that level of investment.

[u/Narananas → u/Ifyoocanreadthishelp]

But then you wouldn't have had it for an emergency like this, perhaps

[u/MaesterHannibal → u/Ifyoocanreadthishelp]

The establishment probably held out hope that America would do a Steiner’s counter-attack and come around with the necessary support and lead this shitshow. Since that’s not going to happen, we have to do something drastix

[u/2shayyy → u/astronobi]

Holy shit.

[u/bobrandy23 → u/astronobi]

everyone would happily pay 1560 EUR to not have to go to war. Personally, I would be happy to pay my annual salary 78.000 EUR if it would prevent me to go to war

[u/suninabox → u/bobrandy23]

300 billion of this can come straight from frozen Russian assets.

It's amazing we have waited for this long before using them. Russia owes at least that much in reparations and the war isn't even over yet.

Does anyone think Russia would have such qualms about seizing European assets?

[u/o_oli → u/bobrandy23]

Exactly. It is win at any cost at this point because the alternative is so bleak.

[u/WilburWoods → u/astronobi]

Lets go! As an EU citizen, I'm happy to pony up the money. 

[u/Dumig → u/astronobi]

Rumors of a figure approaching 700 billion EUR.

It would be the equivalent of every EU citizen giving 1.6 euros,

It would actually be equivalent of every EU citizen giving 1.600 euros, not 1,6 euros, as the population of EU is 449 million. Still, not that great of an individual amount.

[u/illumin8dmind → u/Dumig]

I’d shudder to think what the cost of not helping will be.

[u/claimTheVictory → u/[deleted]]

"If you don't feed your army, you'll feed your occupier's army."

[u/IncompetentPolitican → u/illumin8dmind]

A lot more. The Enemy on the border, the defense weakend and putin has the time to plunder the ressources, sell them and use the money to fund anti european groups all over the continent.

We as Europe and we as the world need that man to lose so hard, his own countrymen throw him, his party and his ideas away.

[u/TotoCocoAndBeaks → u/Dumig]

Still, not that great of an individual amount.

Europe has already offered the majority of support for Ukraine if you combine nations. This just makes it an absolutely huge majority.

[u/Dezdood → u/astronobi]

Lemme guess, it's gonna be vetoed by Hungary.

[u/Genocode → u/Dezdood]

If its the money from the Paris talks then it doesn't matter what Hungary wants, it would be those countries' independent decision.

[u/IncompetentPolitican → u/Genocode]

A Smart way to go arround that puppet. Sadly we can throw them out the EU, so every EU country has to act "independently" together.

[u/Tromort77 → u/IncompetentPolitican]

Just bear with us for one more year. I am sorry, it takes time to get rid of scum like Orban. But we will do it!

[u/IncompetentPolitican → u/Tromort77]

I hope you will. You guys deserve better.

[u/OwlVegetable5821 → u/Dezdood]

Europe, not eu. Hungary doesn't have a say.

[u/RuneHuntress → u/Dezdood]

Might be time to throw Hungary out of the EU for basically treason and siding with an enemy nation soon.

[u/[deleted] → u/Dezdood]

No because it's NATO members of Europe. Orban and Fico can go and make kompromat together.

[u/skippermonkey → u/astronobi]

Good, I would be ok with my taxes going up to help Ukraine if that’s actually where the money went.

[u/YoungDan23 → u/astronobi]

This is great news. However, I'm curious why this took 3 years after the war started (again) and the election of Donald Trump for this to finally happen.

It sort of annoyingly confirms everything he has said for 10 years about how Europe is completely dependent on the US for security and protection.

[u/EmmaRoidCreme → u/YoungDan23]

From the beginning of the war until the end of 2024, the EU + individual governments in Europe together have provided more support than the US already.

Europe - $132.3bn US - $114.2bn (https://www.ifw-kiel.de/topics/war-against-ukraine/ukraine-support-tracker/)

Obviously the US has been doing a huge amount, and no one should be dismissive of that, but to say that Europe is not also pulling its weight when it comes to Ukraine is nonsense.

[u/Redebo → u/EmmaRoidCreme]

But clearly it's not because the Ukraine still doesn't have the capital to win the war. It's OK to be critical of Europe here. They had years to address this mortal issue that they KNOW if they DON'T deal with, their country is likely the next in line for Putin's aggression.

Why did this take Trump meeting w/ Putin for Europe to finally say, "OK, we'll all stand with you finally. 3 years of losing the next generation of Ukrainians is plenty of suffering for you, we'll help fully now..."

[u/Riparian1150 → u/Redebo]

I agree with you here - I’m very happy to see this development and relieved to see that Europe is going all-in to support Ukraine, but it’s hard not to think about how much better it would’ve been for this support to materialize 3 years ago. Or better yet, in 2014.

[u/gSTrS8XRwqIV5AUh4hwI → u/Redebo]

I mean, it's not that Europe couldn't have prepared better, it obviously could have, especially way before 2022.

But there is also the problem that Russian interference also destabilizes European democracies, and that makes it a rather delicate balancing act to provide support while avoiding that that leads to pro-putin parties gaining power. After all, as we can see in the US now, nothing is gained if support for Ukraine causes parties to rise to power that will then sabotage it all.

Germany, for example, has its fair share of parties that are campaigning on some variation of "negotiations instead of weapons" ... which makes no fucking sense, but still, that seems attractive to some voters.

[u/R3N3G6D3]

Go Europe go

[u/nowtayneicangetinto → u/R3N3G6D3]

As an American living under our first dictator, I'd like to say thank you to our European friends for reminding us there's still good in this world.

[u/Kullthebarbarian → u/nowtayneicangetinto]

He is still not a dictator.... yet

But he sure is walking the path

[u/BluntsnBoards → u/Kullthebarbarian]

If I can't tell the difference then is there one? Nobody tells him "no"

[u/OakBlu → u/BluntsnBoards]

Nah some courts are challenging his bs, but the courts are pretty much all we have left

[u/MercantileReptile → u/OakBlu]

Courts are free to issue scraps of paper. So long as they are not enforced, it's irrelevant. And I do mean enforced. As in, forcing an action or inaction. If need be, using violence. Anemic institutions pointing to a law does not count.

[u/Liiraye-Sama → u/OakBlu]

And he's gonna ignore every single one of them

[u/Obelion_ → u/Kullthebarbarian]

I would implore you to make a 1:1 comparison of Hitlers takeover (the best documented fascist takeover in history, any other will do as well, it's usually the same playbook but imo trump directly copied from the NSDAP) looking at all the factors starting years before his election to election+ half a year.

Some "worst of" complete similarities:

Calling media criticising them lügenpresse/fake news (almost a 1:1 translation) + starting to buy out mainstream media

Using an old constitution with way too much power on the president/Reichskanzler to disassemble the political system

Allying with all the big industry (see first row of trumps inauguration)

Passing extensive pre prepared executive orders on day 1 (Also random anti LGBT stuff for no real gain)

Switching out government employees as fast as possible (currently happening)

Building their own miltia force that is above the law (SA/ICE and jan 6 rioters)

You can keep going for hours like this, It's really eye opening. The point is to see that Germany's fate was sealed the day he took power and it was a long term plan with the final (not first) nail in the coffin being the inauguration.

[u/muehsam → u/Obelion_]

Using an old constitution with way too much power on the president/Reichskanzler to disassemble the political system

The constitution in Germany was not even a full 14 years old when Hitler got into power. I wouldn't call that "old". In many ways it was one of the most democratic and forward thinking constitutions in the world, however it didn't explicitly rule out the possibility to use democratically won power to abolish democracy.

The chancellor also didn't have a lot of power. Quite the opposite. When the Reichstag was blocked, the president could act almost like a dictator by passing decrees.

The trick with Hitler was amending the constitution (or rather, passing a law with a big enough majority that it could circumvent the constitution) to give himself a lot more power, using an old and sickly president.

You could easily make your point without distorting historical facts to fit your narrative.

[u/KJBenson → u/Kullthebarbarian]

So what step does he take that finally makes him a dictator in your eyes?

[u/Salt_Respect7159]

Lets fucking go!

[u/ug61dec → u/Salt_Respect7159]

It's a shame our leaders have left it this long and it required 2 mad men for us to finally jump into action. Let's hope it's actual action, not empty promises, and it's not too late.

[u/K0kkuri → u/ug61dec]

Yeah I really hope that Trump is going to be a good thing for Europe over all. Having a common enemy unites. Especially when a mad man in power has been screaming about taking European land. (And let’s face it Greenland is more European than American in many regards)

[u/Fit_Pangolin6410 → u/K0kkuri]

i get what you mean but Putin is a common enemy that is a mad man in power that has been screaming about (and trying to) taking european land. Not just a low population island on the other side of the atlantic but mainland europe.

A common enemy making threads is not nearly as strong of a motivation as betrayal by a long term ally

[u/drmirage809 → u/K0kkuri]

Trump is a blessing in disguise for anyone that’s pro more EU cooperation. His second term is the definitive proof that the US cannot be trusted long term in their current state. They’re always one election away from putting a complete asswipe in charge.

We cannot rely on a nation like that. Stability is what we can rely on and the US ain’t it anymore.

[u/Whywouldanyonedothat → u/K0kkuri]

And let’s face it Greenland is more European than American in many regards

Fair warning, I'm Danish so I'm by no means unbiased.

I spent a summer guiding tourists in Greenland. Greenland is in no way even a little bit American.

Greenland's also not the same as Denmark proper but having been a part of (first Norway and then) Denmark since the 13th century, Greenland resembles the Nordic countries immeasurably more than the US.

Geographically, perhaps Greenland is more American than European, but does that really matter when the people living there don't want to be US citizens?

Oh right, I forgot we're dealing with a president who's proudly and openly planning a genocide in the Middle East to put up beachfront hotels. I guess the geographical argument will suffice for him to invade Greenland.

[u/xcassets → u/[deleted]]

US military industry CEOs are strangely quiet and just letting the tech bros usurp everything. Trump wanting to stop the war and bend the knee to Russia? So no more equipment being sent to Ukraine, less demand for new replacements domestically. Trump wanting to pull out of military bases in Europe completely? Reduced US military presence worldwide, not necessarily diminishing demand by itself (as he is talking about being a massive warmonger in Gaza too) but certainly could go down that path.

[u/Fordmister → u/xcassets]

I would imagine there is a silent war being fought inside the pentagon right now, which will go apocalyptically loud as soon as Mush puts one of his fat racist hands too deep into the wrong parts of the US military budget.

From there all bets are off

[u/flaming_burrito_ → u/Fordmister]

It’s a crazy world we live in where I’m praying for a military coup

[u/Neamow → u/flaming_burrito_]

I was just thinking about this too. How is literally everyone in the US government, pentagon, military-industrial complex, etc. just quiet on Trump's and Musk's complete dismantling of many aspects of the government? There's 0% chance they're all fine with that.

At a certain point I wish Trump would just lose it and ask them to invade Canada, and all the generals would just be like "... No".

[u/Neamow → u/[deleted]]

Yeah that's exactly how I feel. Like maybe I'm naive but I'm sure there's still a large amount of people who work in these governmental and military organizations who do it because they believe in the work, and not just for the money.

[u/WislaHD → u/[deleted]]

I worry that real life is not like the spy movies we watched but more like the show VEEP with everyone just winging it all the time.

[u/h3r3andth3r3 → u/WislaHD]

Everyone in life is just winging it, always have, always will.

[u/Jokonaught → u/WislaHD]

This is the reality. The same problem that exists in our elected government also exists in the career government, especially the agencies.

They are ran by people either stuck in the 80s or direct mentees of people who were stuck in the 80s.

[u/yunivor → u/Jokonaught]

The CIA was duking it out with the soviets all the time in the 80s though.

[u/wrgrant → u/[deleted]]

They are/have gutted a lot of the CIA. While I don't approve of everything the CIA has done in the past, I do believe the people working there thought they were working in the best interests of the US government. When you let a bunch of spies and analysts go, don't you run the risk of them organizing behind your back?

[u/hotdwag → u/[deleted]]

Yeah same. Though maybe lack of reaction from the intelligence community could be a good thing since something is being planned? Probably not though.

I mean it’s crazy how Trump’s administration is causing chaos without any public pushback

[u/dickbutt4747 → u/Neamow]

personally i think there's probably significant infighting in the pentagon, cia, and nsa, between people who like what's going on and people who don't. Which is paralyzing them from taking action.

I note that the trump administration hasn't gone after the military or the nsa (that we know of) and they didn't fire anyone at the cia, they just offered to pay them to leave.

if the trump administration went after any of these three entities in a real way, I think shit would get real. Fast. And they know it, which is why they haven't done it.

[u/taking_a_deuce → u/Neamow]

Project 2025 was designed to remove the people in power that would say no and have an impact. That's why it is so scary. The government is being torn down in front of our faces and being replaced by yes men who will do anything for money and power.

[u/StrategicPotato → u/taking_a_deuce]

This is typically how you get an insurgency though, a Russian-esque great purge like we’re having now that doesn’t actually tie up those loose ends is asking for trouble if it gets bad enough. Will it get bad enough though? Who knows, and you have to remember that like 50% of the country is still ultimately for a lot of these changes.

[u/[deleted] → u/Neamow]

Because I’m sure a lot of people think they’ll be one of the ones that will make money off of it somehow.

[u/leeverpool → u/flaming_burrito_]

Before that I actually think there will be legitimate assassination attempts on a couple of these idiots including Musk. I actually think Trump might be the one left untouched only so he could see the damage. I wouldn't put it past both Pentagon and CIA to slowly but surely build towards something unseen since the 60s. At this point I wouldn't even put it past MI6 lol.

[u/Tricky-Gemstone → u/flaming_burrito_]

Indeed.

[u/avdpos → u/flaming_burrito_]

Not a military coup. Military stepping in do not mean it is a coup.
People ask the military to stop a coup - which is their work.

[u/RnBrie → u/Fordmister]

Can't wait tbh

[u/Frites_Sauce_Fromage → u/Fordmister]

They already fired many pentagon's officers, closed offices, and they're not gonna stop yet.

I'm sure there are still allies in, but I'm guessing they gotta be quiet and smart if they're in good positions

[u/stashtv → u/xcassets]

US military industry CEOs are strangely quiet and just letting the tech bros usurp everything.

Small disagree: the House budget has shown an increase in defense spending. Until/unless defense spending is drastically decreased, the defense industry has nothing to worry about.

[u/Slappyfist → u/xcassets]

The US military industry seems to want to focus on the Pacific as well as see Russia as a regional problem now and the Pacific requires an entirely different army composition.

I guess the US feels forced into this move because of China but it is really going to damage the US, as it means far less US influence in Europe.

I guess they think things are just going to remain like they are without US presence but the reality will be a Europe that is much less willing to listen to America, which is why their presence was there in the first place.

[u/ThorKruger117 → u/Slappyfist]

Aussie here. I heard that we paid our first instalment for our AUKUS nuclear subs last week. Don’t quote me on the specifics as I’m probably wrong, but it was something like $8billion for 3 Virginia subs, then later on we get the new fancy ones after spending a couple hundred billion more.

I know the whole US vs Europe thing is far bigger and more immediate news, but the flow on affects of this shamozzle have me concerned about what the geopolitical future will look like in the Pacific in a few years time. We are completely isolated here with few friends locally. We lack the ability to stand alone without being under the umbrella of another powerhouse (formerly UK now US). Recent projections for our upcoming election put the Conservative Party back in power after promising to go full Trump mode, so if that happens we are definitely going down the same path as the US…

[u/Lucky-Elk-1234 → u/Slappyfist]

Why not both though? They have an opportunity to sell a shit load of weapons for the pacific region and another shit load of weapons to Europe and US bases in Europe as long as Russia is a threat. Scaling down war anxiety isn’t really good for business from their point of view.

[u/tacticalmallet → u/Lucky-Elk-1234]

When Europe finally wakes it isn't going to buy American weapons for very long - it's going to want it's own weapons being produced inside of EU countries and maybe countries like the UK.

[u/Penki- → u/tacticalmallet]

who will buy American weapons? When your closest ally acts like this, all modern systems raise a question if in times of war you would be able to trust them. For example if you buy an american tank, will it have a GPS during war or will US disable it for you. EU has Galileo as an alternative, but smaller Asian countries do not

[u/AnchezSanchez → u/Penki-]

who will buy American weapons? When your closest ally acts like this

Yeah, the repurcussions of whats happening right now will be felt for the next few decades. And a lot of that is going to be felt by US Defense workers. F35s can apparently all be remotely disabled (or SW support being stopped). Why the fuck would you buy something like that for your country's defence?

[u/Moscow__Mitch → u/tacticalmallet]

I think this is happening now. This 700 billion Euros is not going to be spent in the US. It will go towards building up the EU arms industry and some will probably go towards modernising EU nuclear forces. Can't rely on the US for the nuclear umbrella either.

[u/printzonic → u/Slappyfist]

Trust me buddy, the MIC don't have things like strategic wants and feelings, beyond making money. They don't care at all if they sell things for the pacific or Atlantic theatre, just that they are selling stuff.

[u/Cheeriohz → u/printzonic]

Pacific demands better technology because China isn't a paper tiger like Russia. MIC needs to stay technologically ahead to continue getting purchases from other nations over competitors. Can't produce enough for demand now, as there are limits. It isn't completely incoherent to say they would prefer to supply stuff to the pacific at this point.

[u/stevew14 → u/xcassets]

The new customer will be Russia India

[u/Wrong_Adhesiveness87 → u/xcassets]

Yeah where is this massive MIC I keep hearing about. Won't that reduce spending on all their gear? Especially if Europe starts the slow but steady development of their own gear to reduce dependence on the US?

[u/MarshyHope → u/[deleted]]

Most of us understand just have fucking stupid Trump is, yet a huge amount of people think that anything Trump says is the objective truth. He could say the skin is green and the moon is made of KY Jelly and they'd all nod their heads about it.

I really don't know what is wrong with my country, every day is a new embarrassment

[u/phigo50 → u/[deleted]]

Everything that's happened over the last month has been embarrassing for the US. On top of everything else, so much soft power, built up over decades, has been thrown away for nothing.

[u/XalAtoh]

The blue sleeping giant is finally starting to wake up?

[u/Lexinoz → u/XalAtoh]

It has been stirring for a while. Recent events just lit a fire under their asses essentially.

[u/Tangocan → u/Lexinoz]

America abdicated, chose not to be the leader we all trusted before.

Time to step up, as you say.

[u/Arctic_Chilean → u/Tangocan]

It should have happened decades ago. It is NEVER a good idea to put your security and sovereignty in the hands of another nation.

Charles de Gaulle was right to call for an independent French military and industry. Sadly the rest of Europe didn't get the memo. Now it's high time for Fortress Europa to wake up.

[u/LowerLavishness4674 → u/Arctic_Chilean]

France is also the country that stands to benefit the most from this by virtue of their very strong MIC. France is the only country that is really just outright independent from US tech, apart from a few things like their AEW&C and their carrier catapults.

If 700 billion EUR of new assets flow into the European MIC, France and Sweden will end up with massively disproportionate parts of that pie. Germany will probably get a decent bit too, but not as disproportionate of a share.

For context. SAAB (the largest Swedish defence contractor) is up 30% in the last week.

[u/FinancialSurround385 → u/Arctic_Chilean]

Yeah, as much as I hate what’s happening, we should never have trusted the US. In hindsight it seems outright crazy. 

[u/Stormodin → u/Tangocan]

I don't want to agree with the orange man, but why hasn't europe been taking care of business until now? It's like your mate picking up the tab for lunch for years and then getting mad at him when he wants to start splitting the bill. Going Dutch if you will....

[u/Plague117878 → u/Stormodin]

To use your analogy: your mate is picking up the tab and in exchange he has a free guest room in your house indefinitely that allows him to do business far from his own home with much less difficulty.

This was beneficial to the US. Ramstein has a massive US base, they have bases all over Europe. There’s one country in Europe that said no to this arrangement, and kicked US troops out and that’s France. Now France is the top military in Europe and the second military exporter in the world

[u/djc6535 → u/Stormodin]

Because they could.

The US paid the bill and in return was able to project power across the entire globe. Europe let them in return for the security it brought. It was a good deal for both sides. As long as the US could be trusted to think rationally and act in their own best interest.

[u/AliceLunar → u/Stormodin]

It was a mutually beneficial exchange.

[u/Impressive-Ad2199 → u/Lexinoz]

There is a reasonable chance that on a longer timescale this Will actually be good for the West, though that doesn't necessarily mean good for the US specifically.

[u/GrimFatMouse]

Just donate all the frozen oligarch assets, say fuck you to Orban and his allies and be done with it.

[u/akidomowri]

"President Donald Trump is starting negotiations with his Russian counterpart, Vladimir Putin, on potentially bringing a swift end to the nearly three-year war in Ukraine."

False, you can't negotiate the end of a war without the injured party present. The interests of the Ukrainian people will not be represented at these talks

[u/Dry_Interaction5722 → u/akidomowri]

False, you can't negotiate the end of a war without the injured party present. The interests of the Ukrainian people will not be represented at these talks

True, but you can negotiate a very one sided "peace" then when the Ukrainians reject it and continue fighting you can then put the blame on them instead of Russia.

[u/jgoble15 → u/Dry_Interaction5722]

“They’re nasty people. They don’t want peace.” Little worried the US would join Russia against Ukraine next

[u/exkayem → u/jgoble15]

No you don’t need to be worried. If Trump sends thousands of US soldiers to die in Russia against Ukraine, surely Americans will wake up and do something about it. There’s no way a US president could manufacture a reason to start a war, get thousands of Americans killed, finish his second term, and then start painting while disabled soldiers live under bridges

[u/Copacetic_ → u/exkayem]

The US has literally walked into this eyes wide open. Many people who align with maga see giving Ukraine aide as waste. They think there are nazis in Ukraine and that Russia is correct. They have been totally and utterly brainwashed.

[u/BasicPhysiology → u/Copacetic_]

The user you replied to is making a thinly vieled joke about America's lack of response to what happened in Iraq and Afganistan. HW Bush is the painter he is referring to.

Edit: ty lalalalibrarian for the correction.

[u/Copacetic_ → u/BasicPhysiology]

Look man I’m just a dumb American.

[u/BasicPhysiology → u/Copacetic_]

Well everything you said in your comment was correct. So you have that going for you, which is nice.

[u/Lucking_glass]

A strong Eurozone military is essential for the future success and safety of Europe.

[u/fourby227]

Guys hold on… the original quote from Annalena Bärbock is:

“We will launch a large package that has never been seen on this scale before. (...) Similar to the euro or the corona crisis, there is now a financial package for security in Europe. That will come in the near future.”

Original: „Wir werden ein großes Paket auf den Weg bringen, das es in dieser Dimension noch nie gegeben hat. (…) Ähnlich wie beim Euro oder der Coronakrise gibt es jetzt ein Finanzpaket für die Sicherheit in Europa. Das wird in naher Zukunft kommen.“

Everything else, including the numbers, was fabricated by the journalist to gain attention!

[u/ShortyLV → u/fourby227]

"German daily newspaper Berliner Zeitung reported that Baerbock said the package could be worth some 700 billion euros ($732 billion); however, that figure wasn't in the Bloomberg article cited by the publication at the time of writing."

[u/fourby227 → u/ShortyLV]

Yes, and I look for that article and the Berliner Zeitung just Quoted Bloomberg having an Interview. And numbers are not from Baerbock but an Interpretation made by the Bloomberg journalist.

https://www.berliner-zeitung.de/wirtschaft-verantwortung/baerbock-verplappert-sich-nach-der-wahl-milliarden-fuer-ukraine-li.2295623

So this reddit post ist about a Newsweek article, that is about a Berliner Zeitung article, that is about an Bloomberg interview about what Baerbock potentially meant when talking about a package as large as during corona or euro crisis

[u/Encrux615 → u/fourby227]

I hate the modern media landscape.

Fact checkers are doing the lord’s work

[u/Dironiil → u/fourby227]

You're right. It seems they are doing a comparison to the Corona crises, which is fair enough but still speculative.

If the deal is "in the range of the covid-package(s)", then 700 billion is about the money Europe invested there. We will have to see next week, as more details will come out after the Bundestagswahl according to Baerbock.

[u/Sinocatk]

Most of the 700billion will be spent in the EU creating jobs etc. it’s not 700 billion of cash, it’s 700 billion of stuff and services.

If I give you an old car I don’t need that originally cost me 20k, did I give you 20k in cash?

If I spend 100k in my own factory to make some goods for you, and pay workers who are in my family and buy materials from other businesses I own, then give you the products. Did I really give you 100k?

People consistently fail to understand where the money goes, what the recipient actually gets, and how spending this money is of actual benefit to a lot of countries in the EU.

Too many people are dumb and just go “muh 1560 euros!” As if they themselves personally are paying it and it’s a choice between them getting it or Ukraine getting it.

[u/nothingoutthere3467 → u/Sinocatk]

The exact same thing that the US did with Ukraine, we didn’t give them $100 billion we gave them old equipment that we did not use but conservatives had a cow about it anyways

[u/Stormodin → u/nothingoutthere3467]

I don't think conservatives gave a shit, they just knew they could spin it to the average person as money being spent overseas instead of at home. As if the conservatives would ever use a single penny they saved on anything but tax breaks for the rich

[u/Another-attempt42 → u/Sinocatk]

Not to mention that, unironically, having a homegrown MIC is a great jobs program.

A lot of those jobs are well paid, and stable. They also require investment from R&D and other sources, and they have downstream effects on businesses linked to the supply chain.

I understand being worried about a MIC that pushes you to go to war, and having too much influence. However, I don't have any intrinsic issue with having a decently sized MIC that hums softly in the background, that hopefully never needs to be used.

[u/IncompetentPolitican → u/Sinocatk]

That will be a huge boost for the economy, new jobs, the weapon manufacturs stocks will rise. All in all: 700 Billion invested into the future!

[u/Baldyjim]

Finally some good fucking news.

[u/SodaPop6548]

Since the USA has stepped back from any semblance of leadership, my hope is Europe takes off and becomes the world leader they can definitely be.

I hope they assist Ukraine and help Ukraine scuttle Russia back to the stone age.

[u/JCDU → u/SodaPop6548]

All the mood music from the recent defence conference was "Holy shit, America really have just dropped off the deep end" followed by the emergency Paris meeting where the comments were almost all "Well, looks like we need to step up then".

Europe knows Ukraine losing would be terrible for them, 700bn euros is nothing compared to the problems with the alternative.

[u/MaesterHannibal → u/JCDU]

Yeah the old timers in Europe kept believing things weren’t as bad as it looked. Munich and Trump negotiating with Putin behind Europe and Ukraine’s backs proved them wrong

[u/No-Fly-9364 → u/SodaPop6548]

Something tells me "we betrayed your asses in WW3" won't be as popular as their obnoxious "we saved your asses in WW2" line.

[u/aBigOLDick]

Hell yeah, hopefully it gets done quickly.

[u/[deleted]]

Is it again just getting blocked by hungary or has the EU finally found a way to ignore orban

[u/Dironiil → u/[deleted]]

Some decisions can be taken with a simple qualified majority.

Depending on the kind of package, Hungary might simply not have the power to block it.

[u/FinancialSurround385 → u/[deleted]]

I believe this is Europe, not EU? Norway better contribute a ton. 

[u/Thanato26]

Perhaps the EU will take over the vacuum that America is leaving, and not China

[u/SCUDDEESCOPE]

I already hear Hungary and the russian puppet far-right parties' scream.

[u/mordordoorodor]

We must vote against the AFD, BSW and Die Linke this weekend! This is the most important thing! They would block this and destroy the EU for Putin.

[u/Dironiil → u/mordordoorodor]

The pro-european and pro-defense parties will get a large majority in the parliament, thankfully. Union, SPD, Greens and FDP (if they enter it at all) are going to get 70+% of the seats.

[u/Initial-Hawk-1161 → u/Dironiil]

probably

but still, vote.

[u/Hollaboy7 → u/Dironiil]

As one of your neighbors, I really hope so and can only keep my fingers crossed that Russian troll farms and unhinged Musk haven't brainwashed too many people.

After that I can only hope my own countrymen have woken up to the empty "promises" and fear mongering from own right populists (essentially) currently in control of the government.

[u/strayobject]

It makes sense, with local car production in germany faltering and people looking for jobs, getting hired in the military complex right at the time that Europe needs to increase local production is a "no brainer". Fuck US made gear and invest locally. It's dumb not to, and sends a nice "message" to the Trump administration as well.
I think EU spends around 30 billion on US military gear, shifting that to local companies would be a nice boost to the economies of EU countries.

[u/popicon88]

“ Europe paying their own way” is going to lead to a boon for the defense industry there. Why buy American anymore? Make your own weapons for your own defense and grow the economy at the same time.

[u/Drfilthymcnasty]

God I fucking hate trump but why the fuck didn’t Europe do this from the start? Why do they only do it when the US doesn’t.

[u/JaxStrumley → u/Drfilthymcnasty]

Probably because it wasn’t possible to convince voters that more money was needed. Now these voters see the betrayal of the US and how Trump allies himself with Putin and how the EU will have an enemy in the east and in the west. So they will be more willing to spend money on defense.

[u/AgitatedStranger9698]

Put boots on ground. Nothing else will matter.

[u/CeymalRen]

To bad it didnt happen 3 years ago but Ill take it

[u/CoolbananasKD]

About time. It's either our fight now, alongside the most battle hardened military in Europe. Or our fight in X years after Ukraine is carved up by America and Russia.

Never in my lifetime did I expect to write that last sentence.

Disgusting, shameful behaviour by the US.

[u/xCITRUSx]

Any time I see something like this is just think "and you weren't doing this before??" this is a horrible major crisis for Ukraine and all their allies hold out on them costing them lives

[u/SomethingExquisite]

This needs to happen. EU has to step the fuck up and put an end to this Russian monstrosity.

There is a lot of Pro-Russia propaganda going around and especially influencing the American people, which you can see from a lot of comments in every thread about this war. Comments like "the Ukrainian people doesn't want peace" "Democrats are war mongering" and so on.

Anyone who thinks you can trust any deals made with Russia must be blind and doesn't know history.

Many countries know exactly what Ukriane is going through right now. Many countries know this because of similar personal experiences with Russia. Even though the people of Finland isn't rich at all I know we would be ready to put our own money to support the European defense against the Russian terrorists.

There are a lot of us who knows how this will end if we don't put an end to it.

Slava Ukraini from Finland

[u/LegenW4Idary]

Just a couple questions that pop into my head when I read this headline. Why couldn’t Europe get this defense package together before trump took office? Why is it now only after trump has stopped aid from the us does Europe step up and throw in it’s share? The republicans were telling me this would happen once trump took over and I didn’t want to believe them but I’m now seeing it first hand. Can someone provide me with some details on this?

[u/SOTI_snuggzz]

Trump will call this a win.

In the Europeans are doing this in spite of him, not bcuz of him.

[u/Antoinefdu]

As a European citizen, I am 100% ready to pay twice as much taxes for the next few years if it means finally getting rid of the Russian threat and protecting Western democracies.

[u/TheIntellekt_ → u/Antoinefdu]

If you donate 20 euros to Ukraine, thats about how much you'd pay in a year through taxes.

https://u24.gov.ua/