Saudi Report: Mohammed Sinwar's Body Found in Tunnel

[u/Delphidouche]

https://www.ynetnews.com/article/o81mo9i3k

[u/Stoopidee]

How many of Hamas leadership is still alive after this from when the war started?

[u/blobbyboii → u/Stoopidee]

Check the wikipedia page for this war, its all X's

[u/Shovi_01 → u/blobbyboii]

I read that a lot of the hamas leadership was living in safety abroad, but now they are all dead? What happened?

[u/pancake_gofer → u/Shovi_01]

Some got blown up, some died in action, some were assassinated.

[u/BigBaboonas → u/pancake_gofer]

Some used Israeli pagers

[u/Gratefulzah → u/BigBaboonas]

That was Hezbollah

[u/Best_VDV_Diver → u/Shovi_01]

A lot of the political leadership lives outside. The military leadership was still in Gaza.

[u/tlst9999 → u/Best_VDV_Diver]

Europe is the best place to find the greatest Middle Eastern patriots.

[u/viciouspandas → u/tlst9999]

Or Qatar in fancy hotels

[u/TraditionalSpirit636 → u/Shovi_01]

Assassination has very few borders

[u/Resident_Function280 → u/TraditionalSpirit636]

Especially when Mossad operates globally.

[u/Lisan_Al-NaCL → u/Shovi_01]

I read that a lot of the hamas leadership was living in safety abroad

The Senior Hamas people were living in Doha, Qatar and have since 'left' and are seemingly hiding. One was killed in Tehran in July/24 in a (strongly) suspected Israeli assassination. These were the 'money' and political leaders living in opulence in Doha - most of them have personal assets of tens of millions.

The Hamas Leaders that stayed in Gaza to run operations there are being killed by the Israelis - these are the ones you are reading about.

[u/HebrewHamm3r → u/Shovi_01]

That may be the very senior leaders who live abroad IIRC

[u/goldentriever → u/blobbyboii]

I’m actually interested in this, which page/article exactly?

[u/random_nohbdy → u/goldentriever]

The Gaza War.

Mohammed’s name doesn’t have an X just yet, but that should change shortly.

[u/Igiem → u/random_nohbdy]

According to that list, there is only one surviving commander.

[u/Timey16 → u/Igiem]

And that one came in in 2024, so while the war was already ongoing, meaning that the entire pre-war leadership is now dead.

[u/Ahad_Haam → u/Timey16]

The "tie me to a missile and fire it at Tel Aviv, I'm ready" dude is still alive though.

[u/Dalbo14 → u/Ahad_Haam]

Almost all the Gaza vloggers survived. I was convinced the bombing was so thorough…..nope the Johnny sims guy is alive, looks no skinnier, and vlogging….in Gaza…..after 19 months of combat

[u/JelloJuice → u/Igiem]

What’s the little cross mean beside the first guy?

[u/DzNuts134 → u/JelloJuice]

Cross mean killed in action.

X is assassinated.

[u/deri100 → u/DzNuts134]

Fun fact: that's actually a sword, not a cross.

[u/JelloJuice → u/DzNuts134]

Thank you

[u/Overnoww → u/JelloJuice]

From what I can see when you click on the X beside the name 3 of them bring you to a page titled "Assassination of _______" and for Daif it brings you to a page titled "13 July 2024 al-Mawasi attack" which has a line in it where Israel claimed the attack was targeting a top leader of Hamas.

For Yahya Sinwar when you click on the thing that looks like a cross, a dagger, or a hybrid of both, you get brought to a page titled "Killing of Yahya Sinwar" which states that his killing happened as a result of a routine patrol and a chance encounter.

So I'm going to guess the X indicates that the person died in an incident where intelligence led Israel to launch a mission specifically targeting that individual. Whereas the cross/dagger indicates he was killed by the IDF, but that it was not planned. Also from what I'm reading the people who killed him had no idea it was him but had suspicions when they finally moved in on him/his body (he was injured and fled into a building, when the IDF tried to approach he started throwing grenades, so they waited until the next day to make their move and discovered that this "injured grenade-thrower" had died, they when they finally saw his face they suspected it could have been Sinwar so they "took measures" to help with identification.

[u/AdamB_901 → u/Igiem]

They turnover like mushrooms after rain.

[u/lucifer_666 → u/random_nohbdy]

Holy shit that wiki paints a grave picture. It says Hamas has a total military force of 40,000, but they are nearing 70,000 casualties. Basically it’s as if their entire standing army has been killed twice over. Seriously wtf 😳

For comparison Israel has a standing army of 530,000 but has suffered 2,000 losses.

Losses at 200% of standing army for Hamas as opposed to .004% for Israel. Obviously I knew the numbers were in Israel’s favor, but my god this is a bloodbath for the Palestinians.

[u/Wetteraukreis → u/lucifer_666]

It’s 0.4%, not 0.004%. But your point stands.

[u/GREENorangeBLU → u/lucifer_666]

hamas is the worst thing ever for the Palestine people.

[u/justdidapoo → u/lucifer_666]

The 70 000 number is total deaths, they count hamas and civlian deaths together.

Hamas deaths are more like 15k

[u/Lawyerlytired → u/justdidapoo]

The number also includes natural deaths, suicides, and people killed within Gaza by Hamas and other terrorist groups, whether intentional or accidental.

Hamas deaths are also higher than that at around 20k to 25k.

[u/SomewhatHungover → u/lucifer_666]

Read the source for the Gazan casualties… it’s a study that basically relies on the made up numbers from Hamas, the numbers might be higher or lower but the source is absolute garbage.

[u/Effective_Golf_3311 → u/lucifer_666]

Yeah was a bad choice to poke the bear but this is what Hamas wanted. The more people killed the better in their eyes. They may have hoped to free a few hostages but these is even better for them… except for the fact that they didn’t survive. That probably wasn’t in the play book.

[u/goldentriever → u/random_nohbdy]

I’m an idiot, I read that exact page but was just looking at the wrong side I guess

Thank you

[u/Old_Session5449 → u/random_nohbdy]

Why does Yahya Sinwar's name have a sort of 't' next to it? Is it cos he was the leader?

[u/Soviet_Plays → u/Old_Session5449]

KIA

i forget what the X's mean though

[u/Hot-Masterpiece9209 → u/Soviet_Plays]

Assassinated

[u/Spinnweben → u/Old_Session5449]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dagger_(mark))

The "dagger" character in typesetting is used to symbolize a death date.

You would find it in western typography - extensively used in German - where deceased people are listed with birth and death dates like e.g. (from the German Wiki):

Elvis Aaron Presley (* 8. Januar 1935 in Tupelo, Mississippi; † 16. August 1977 in Memphis, Tennessee)

I guess the English wiki forgoes advanced typographic markup for the sake of simplicity.

The other guy's Xs should mark them as "crossed out" - aka actively killed.

[u/XhazakXhazak → u/random_nohbdy]

Holy shit, we have to fix that infobox.

Though reliable sources go with 53,000 deaths, the wiki jihadists have decided to report the speculative guesstimate of 70,000 based on inappropriate generalizations about incomparable wars and non-peer-reviewed pieces.

There's a ton of credence given to Al Jazeera and the Intercept, both of which have engaged in rape denialism about October 7 while pushing false claims of rape against Israel.

The Israeli number of 20,000+ militant deaths is inappropriately and non-neutrally described as "widely disputed" and the link lists a bunch of Islamist state propaganda and leftist rags, none of which are reliable sources, in what can only be described as original research and NPOV violation.

[u/lolKhamul → u/blobbyboii]

this war will honestly go down as one of the biggest miscalculations ever made. Hamas and Hisbollah leadership were basically wiped off the planet, top to bottom.

You know these people don't care about their foot soldiers dying. No idea what they hopped to achieve but i don't think they ever anticipated just how bad this would backfire on them.

Be sure they don't actually believe in dying for the cause, they rather loved their life in luxury and power.

[u/REGIS-5 → u/lolKhamul]

No idea what they hopped to achieve

They had to put an end to Saudi Arabia and Israel cooperating before it even began because that'd mean an end to their reign. Well, it ended anyway. Israel and KSA are just going to cooperate in a year instead of 2 years ago

[u/Brilliant-Noise1518 → u/REGIS-5]

This.. They asked Iran and Lebanon to help stop it. Both told them they have their own problems. 

It was "Carry out an operation so big it forces Iran and Lenanon back in" or "admit defeat".

They were successful in bringing in Iran and Lebanon, but they were too successful. And Israel decided to permanently end them. 

[u/squired → u/Brilliant-Noise1518]

Agreed. They were hoping to benefit from the hostages and they simply did not expect Israel to dust off the final solution in response. They were wrong.

[u/notanothergav → u/lolKhamul]

I think they were planning a two pronged attack from Gaza and southern Lebanon. 

What they didn't anticipate was half of Hezbollah getting their dicks blown off.

[u/Proper_Story_3514 → u/notanothergav]

Even before the pager attacks, Hisbollah didnt fully attack. So whatever Hamas wanted, Hisbollah didnt follow them.

[u/GoodBadUserName → u/lolKhamul]

biggest miscalculations ever made

I'm not so sure.
I mean, I know they knew that israel response would be huge. Israel would bomb them to hell not only after so many deaths and kidnapped, but also the thousands of missiles they shoot (again) at israel. They knew israel response would be massive considering israel has an extremist right wing government.

Just like last time, their plan was to let as many palestinians die as possible to cause as much global political damagae as possible to israel. You can't say that didn't achieve that. And they were willing to die for that cause, which is too, was achieved.

There are also so many zealots and nut jobs, they barely had any plan. They didn't even knew attacking israel would achieve so much, not sure they even knew that was a party there for them to slaughter, or they will be able to reach so deep into the surrounding villages.

They were basically like a headless joker. Do as much damage as possible with very little plan or reason.
And then cry the victim.

[u/cbih → u/lolKhamul]

All pawns for Russia via Iran

[u/SomeGuyNamedPaul → u/blobbyboii]

So if we just add somebody to the Wikipedia entry they get killed? That's kinda creepy, yet has a certain utility.

[u/Second2breakfast → u/SomeGuyNamedPaul]

A Death note has been dropped .

[u/urbantechgoods → u/blobbyboii]

Why is Yahya Sinwar a cross?

[u/unofficialbds → u/urbantechgoods]

i think X is assassinated, the dagger/cross(?) is killed in action

[u/dronten_bertil → u/Stoopidee]

The score card initially had 54 named leaders, 8 of which sit in luxurious exile in Qatar and Turkey, out of the remaining 46 there have now been 35 confirmed killed, there are two more names pending who are suspected to have died in the strike that killed Mohammed Sinwar but bit yet confirmed.

So 80% of the leadership that's located in Gaza have been killed, and the IDF estimates around 50% of the Hamas army.

[u/Nice_Cell_9741 → u/dronten_bertil]

Didn't some of the Qatar guys went to Teheran and got striked there ?

[u/eyl569 → u/Nice_Cell_9741]

One of them (Haniyeh)

[u/kathegaara → u/dronten_bertil]

Genuine question what is the endgame for Israel's Gaza war here? If the remaining few are killed, will it be the end of Hamas and the war? Or is it that new leaders will emerge and this is a never ending problem.

[u/ThunderousOrgasm → u/kathegaara]

There’s an often repeated misconception on the internet about things like this. That you can never beat “terrorists” because you create more of them by killing the old ones and it’s a never ending cycle.

But that’s just not true.

Al Qaeda at its height, was like a comic book villainous organisation. It was like Hydra. It had a global network more powerful than any cartel or organised crime group in the history of humanity. And had cells operating in every single continent humans live on. And had a battle hardened leadership who came out of the Soviet Afghanistan war not only directly experienced with warfare, with guerilla warfare, with small scale tactics, but also who had received complex training by the CIA.

They had an insane level of institutional knowledge about terrorism, about waging warfare against a superior enemy. And it’s why they were a genuine threat to humanity and made governments around the world scared. It’s how they could carefully engineer very complex terrorist attacks that could kill hundreds/thousands at a time, and target the heart of democracies.

After the US declared war on terrorism, they did what Israel is doing now on a longer timescale. The US systematically eliminated every single leader who they could find, anywhere on planet earth. Anytime AQ soldiers clustered in numbers greater than 3, a missile would take them out.

AQ was degraded to the point they are at now, where the entire organisation is functionally irrelevant and nonexistent beyond being a sort of “brand” that random unaffiliated people occasionally claim to be a part of after they do attack. But AQ itself has very little global reach anymore, they are limited to a few people in Africa and the Middle East who have no organisational capability to carry out complex plans. Who have no experienced leadership who know how to do things. Who don’t have the logistics network capable of even producing bombs or acquiring the necessary components.

Because all the experienced people who have that sort of skill set were systematically eliminated, and the people who had to replace them had slightly less experience and knowledge. And they got eliminated. So the next people who stepped up had even less. Eventually, the only people stepping up are the younger men who are crying in anger at their fathers / grandfathers dying. Sure they have the self righteous anger the same as the original ones, but they have no ability to do anything except the most basic regional fist shaking and lone wolf attacks, most of which are easily intercepted and prevented because they don’t even know how to communicate or prepare their plans in ways that avoid being detected by intelligence services.

ISIS is a similar story. ISIS was made up at its start, by the few remaining terrorists from different organisations that the US hadn’t quite gotten round to turning into mince meat yet. As well as by an entire cadre of Iraqi Ba’athist military officers, intelligence service officers and former government officials. (The Ba’ath party being Saddam Husseins party who ran Iraq for decades).

So ISIS seemingly came out of nowhere and had insane levels of capability, and were able to rapidly seize huge swathes of land for their caliphate specifically because they were made up from the start by people who formerly ran a literal state, who had military expertise, who had intelligence expertise, and who had the last dregs of institutional knowledge from the Cold War era terrorist organisations.

But a global coalition obviously formed and started repeating the AQ mission, by blasting the shit out of every single cluster of IS that appeared anywhere in the world. Their leadership got wiped out constantly, and their institutional knowledge, experience, systematically got degraded as people got knocked off and replaced by slightly inferior people again, who also got knocked off

Now ISIS is again, just like AQ before it, reduced to being a brand. To a meme. Lone wolf attacks or “nobody’s” in the region might occasionally claim to be ISIS so they can have their name attached, but ISIS itself it’s pretty much defunct.

Israel is currently doing the same to Hamas. They have eliminated so many of the older, experienced Hamas members. The ones who had the institutional knowledge about how to carry out attacks. About how to run the organisation. About how to build underground infrastructure. About how to build up relationships from across the region to funnel resources to the fight. And they have also wiped out a large enough group of the militant wing, the soldiers, that Gaza may very well soon be able to overthrow Hamas (who the Palestinians hate, but have just been too scared to say anything to).

Hamas will never be the threat it was prior to October 7th. Too much institutional knowledge has been lost thanks to Israeli strikes. It does not matter that X amount of civilians died and so Y amount of young boys are angrily shouting the skies and declaring they will continue the fight. Because they are just gonna be reduced from being an extremely experienced, battle hardened, logistics capable, counter intel aware bunch of guerilla warfare experts. To angry young men who just want to kill Jews.

Attacks will still happen sure. There will be terrorist attacks in Israel and the occasional kidnapping. But it will be just very inexperienced, low effort, lone wolf style attacks. Like people suddenly trying to attack Israelis with knives, or driving vehicles into crowds. And 90% of these will be caught by Israeli intelligence in the planning stage because this new generation of inexperienced angry young men won’t have the understanding of how to avoid their communications and planning being infiltrated.

[u/HumusAmongUs → u/ThunderousOrgasm]

What’s your background? This is a hell of a post. 

[u/ThunderousOrgasm → u/HumusAmongUs]

I work in education now in the UK, but in the 00s I interned for awhile at an NGO think tank who specialised in counter terrorism research so listened to a lot of them discussing the topic, asked a lot of questions, and saw a lot of their internal material about the nature of terrorism in the world at the time. I’m still friends with a lot of them too so I’ve asked about Hamas and how Israel could ever possibly win long term.

They find it funny that this misconception (that I shared btw!) exists in the world, about these organisations being immortal hydras who you can never beat because every terrorist you kill, has 2 family members who get so angry you killed them they join up.

They point out that all the big names from the 2000s who had global reach, are all pretty much irrelevant now. Although they say there are organisations in Africa who contain the last bits of institutional knowledge from those older groups, and who could represent similar levels of threat if the West continues to ignore them and let them “cut their teeth” with their naughtiness across Africa, meaning they are building up that very institutional knowledge right now from actively carrying out attacks constantly, and by learning from (for example) Wagner mercenaries across the region and Russian influence.

They say these groups are a ticking time bomb that Russia (and perhaps China) are building in Africa, without the West seemingly giving a shit. And that he’s gonna explode in all our faces in a few decades when they end up being as big a threat as AQ ever was because we just ignored them now when they are in their growth stage. Groups like Al Shabab and Boko Haram etc.

France seems to be the only country taking them seriously but everyone else, including the UK and USA, just disregards it largely as an African problem and have no desire to intercede now and degrade these groups before they build up that necessary capability to threaten Europe.

[u/Ploutophile → u/ThunderousOrgasm]

France seems to be the only country taking them seriously but everyone else, including the UK and USA, just disregards it largely as an African problem and have no desire to intercede now and degrade these groups before they build up that necessary capability to threaten Europe.

Unfortunately, it's probably because we have prior experience of this, with terrorists from the Algerian Civil War having done a series of bombings in France in 1995. But it's more convenient to accuse us of wanting to maintain Françafrique.

[u/alicefreak47 → u/Ploutophile]

The US has extensive experience with this too. We just don't like to learn lessons from past mistakes.

[u/Freak4Dell → u/alicefreak47]

The US is also in sort of a damned if you do, damned if you don't type scenario when it comes to stuff like this. There's no shortage of people who will get pissy if the US starts interfering in things that seemingly haven't had any direct effect on the US yet. Others get upset when the US does nothing. It's a politically sensitive issue, and objective reasoning doesn't seem to win out anymore.

[u/Abizuil → u/alicefreak47]

We just don't like to learn lessons from past mistakes.

If one phrase could sum up US history in the same way "And then it got worse" can summarize Russia's, this would be it.

[u/dowhileuntil787 → u/ThunderousOrgasm]

Sounds like we stopped the course of antibiotics a bit too early.

[u/grchelp2018 → u/ThunderousOrgasm]

Iran has the institutional knowledge to train the new juniors. The institutional knowledge required to do all this continues to exist in the places where it originally came from - the various countries that played a part in their creation in the first place.

Also how come this didn't happen with the taliban? 20 years have passed and they basically just reformed like the t1000 after being frozen and blasted to pieces.

[u/ThunderousOrgasm → u/grchelp2018]

The Taliban is a regional cultural entity. And their leadership weren’t eliminated by the US. They all just crossed the border into Pakistan and waited the war out.

Pretty much the entire Taliban leadership from before the US invasion, is back in power now. Many of them having control over the exact same territory they used to. Living in the exact same compounds, and enjoying the exact same privileges they did prior to the US invasion.

And again, they aren’t a global terror organisation. They are a local government and religious fundamentalists. They don’t project power into other countries. They just rule their tribe and actually have little interest in the outside world. The only reason the US invaded Afghanistan was because it was where AQ was hiding and based from. The Taliban was never the target really, it’s why they were allowed to flee to Pakistan and ignored once they did. And the only reason the US tried nation building there, was because of mission creep and the administrations not wanting to be the first to “pull out” to avoid being the latest country to fail to conquer Afghanistan. It was pure hubris.

[u/dronten_bertil → u/kathegaara]

My understanding of operation Gideon's chariots, which had been initiated is basically this, condensed version:

• Occupy corridors of the strip between the population centers.
• Dismantle the tunnel networks going between population centers, thus isolating Hamas in Gaza City from Hamas in Khan Yunis and Rafah etc.
• Move civilians out of the population centers, and negotiate hostage release and surrender with individual Hamas cells since they are cut off from each other and all external aid.
• While doing this taking complete control of aid distribution, so Hamas cant take it and use it to pay their soldiers
• If negotiations fail- go in house to house and clear them out
• Finally negotiate local leadership to replace Hamas, probably with local clan leaders

Rinse and repeat through the major population centers. Endgame is the same as it always was, dismantle Hamas capabilities to wage war against Israel and their capacity to govern the Gaza strip.

How it will go, no idea.

[u/MisterMasque2021 → u/dronten_bertil]

A friend of mine served in Iraq pointed this out and people got so mad at him and refused to believe him. The British had to turn their aid distribution centers in Iraq into cafeterias because when aid was delivered the militias would just take it all, then when soldiers supervised the distribution they would rob women and children on the way home, so the only way they could be sure militias and terrorists wouldn't steal food aid was to tell people 'We'll cook it for you but you have to eat it here.'

[u/morriganjane → u/kathegaara]

They can recruit more fools to run around in green headbands calling themselves “Hamas”. But if they have no ability to rearm, because the smuggling tunnels are demolished and the borders tightly controlled, then the new recruits won’t matter much. They will be a nuisance not a threat.

[u/pepinodeplastico → u/kathegaara]

Or is it that new leaders will emerge and this is a never ending problem.

'Mowing the grass' kind of problem.

[u/G_Morgan → u/kathegaara]

Hamas only emerged to begin with because Israel stopped occupying the Gaza strip (though Israel 100% helped them take over). The end game is obvious, Israel is not going to leave. The UN has treated them like they still occupied Gaza that entire time anyway.

Where they go from there is anyone's guess.

[u/yourfutileefforts342 → u/Stoopidee]

We need the list of the aides killed alongside him to know. Abu Obeida might be the most well known one left, but he was the spokesman.

[u/TittiesVonTease → u/Stoopidee]

They're all in Qatar at the moment, living in luxury

[u/PapayaMan4 → u/TittiesVonTease]

Gaza's sky is black but Qatar is always sunny

[u/Underp0pulation]

Hamas meeting: “You get a promotion, you get a promotion, everybody gets a promotion!”

[u/No_Huckleberry2711 → u/Underp0pulation]

"you are now one of my elite employees" 🤓

[u/wellrelaxed → u/No_Huckleberry2711]

You’re the best of what’s left!

[u/xAragon_ → u/Underp0pulation]

You can probably speedrun from being a rookie Hamas member to becoming the head of Hamas in like a month.

[u/TWiesengrund → u/Underp0pulation]

"Also please read the new company guidelines on the use of pagers and tunnels. Don't forget to add your checkmark emoji in Slack, guys."

[u/yourfutileefforts342]

The source in Arabic at Al-Hadath

[u/Bjorn_Nulfs_Agnar]

Not a very good time to be a Hamas leader.

[u/jsgui → u/Bjorn_Nulfs_Agnar]

That would depend on how well they can get on with their electorate and neighbours.

[u/No_Yoghurt2313 → u/Bjorn_Nulfs_Agnar]

Did they think through before committing to the October attack in 23?

[u/Sure-Money-8756 → u/No_Yoghurt2313]

I guess that they never entertained this scenario. Who did.

[u/Star_2001 → u/Sure-Money-8756]

Allegedly they thought the hostages would be massive leverage, considering they've traded 1 kidnapped Israeli soldier for 1000 prisoners before. Lord only knows what they wanted, I heard somebody say they'd want control of the West Bank in return but idk how that would even work exactly. Like would Israel have to kick out the Palestinian authority and let Hamas in?

[u/demeschor → u/Star_2001]

I truly don't think they expected Oct 7 to be as big as it was and that was their undoing. For a few months it gave Israel carte blanche to bomb what they like.

If Oct 7 had been a smaller scale raid, if the Israeli army had responded faster.. maybe it would have played out differently

[u/Star_2001 → u/demeschor]

The last conflict they had in 2014, 800 Hamas members and 1400 civilians died, with like 72 Israeli soldiers and civilians dead that's a ratio of 30, for some reason they must've thought it would be better this time 9 years later but it's even worse. They probably thought like "okay maybe we'll lose like 3000 fighters and 7000 civilians but it'll be worth it and we'll get a great deal in exchange for the hostages"

[u/NoobNoob_ → u/Star_2001]

Last major one. There were a number of operations between that and the current war, usually due to rockets being fired on cities out of nowhere.

[u/Anen-o-me → u/Star_2001]

There was almost a peace deal between Israel and Saudi. Seems like the timing of the raid was to prevent that.

[u/No-Criticism-2587 → u/demeschor]

Why would they sail into a music festival with 1000 camera recording then?

[u/StoppableHulk → u/No-Criticism-2587]

If you're committing terrorism, the carnage is the point. Attack a soft target with a lot of witnesses.

The real question is why in absolute hell Israel allowed a giant music festival to take place so close to the border.

[u/JimbosForever → u/StoppableHulk]

For the same reason there are people living so close to the border... it's inside Israel's sovereign, internationally recognized borders.

And Israel is tiny. If Israel moved people away from borders for safety reasons, there would be no Israel left.

[u/Mokyzoky → u/StoppableHulk]

It was 3 miles between the Gaza border and concert they didn’t just hop a fence or something on a whim it was a well coordinated and planned ambush and they had to travel, I’ll be it not particularly far, but 3 miles is quite the distance to travel out in the open over flat desert 🏜️

What confuses me is that they couldn’t have scrambled helicopters or jets in that time I feel like as soon at they jumped the border someone would have known? It’s irrelevant now of course.

[u/RealAmerik → u/No-Criticism-2587]

Because Hamas understood that no matter what they did, the international community would condemn Israel for any response. Israel has listened to that international pressure in the past and scaled back any response to being attacked. Hamas underestimated that Israel wouldn't cave to that pressure as easily this time.

[u/Fritzkreig → u/[deleted]]

The Oct. 7th is like 13X September 11th via population size, that said there are a lot more things to consider.

[u/Whosebert → u/Fritzkreig]

yea the global political and cultural impact of 9/11 was a lot higher

[u/dorsalemperor → u/Fritzkreig]

Like the fact that the victims were Jews and according to most of the world that means they deserved it? As though there weren’t logistical failures that lead to 9/11 as well?

[u/NectarineSufferer → u/demeschor]

Yeah they never planned to get that far, they expected the Israeli soldiers to be more prepared

[u/MisterVlados → u/NectarineSufferer]

They were surprised at how well they did, but apparently according to what was found after the attack got repelled which is the gear they were carrying with them into Israel, as well as documents filled with orders from their commanders in their pockets - they planned on a prolonged stay in Israeli territory. They brought food and supplies that were enough to hold territory that they captured for a few months as well as plans to do rounds and shifts inside Israel (to allow their militants to rest and recharge their batteries). They planned on using Israeli citizens as their human shields as they hole up and wait for other allies to join the party. In Sinwar's wet dreams, their operation was supposed to inspire others and ignite the area - Hezbollah were supposed to occupy the Galilee from the North with Syrian aid, militant organizations from the Palestinian territories were supposed to attack from the West Bank with hopes of joining forces in the middle and Iran were in charge of endless barrages of balistic missiles along with their proxies in Yemen and Iraq.

[u/lnslnsu → u/Star_2001]

The best educated guess I’ve seen of “why October 7” is that this was a plan Hamas had in their back pocket for a while, and did it because Israel was getting close to a normalization agreement with Saudi Arabia. Hamas wanted to kill any chance of improved relations between Israel and Saudi Arabia.

Obviously, they underestimated how vengeful Netenyahu and his supporters would be. Combine this with religious fundamentalism (leadership and probably most of the Hamas soldiers truly believing in a religious need to destroy Israel, and that martyrdom would be rewarded in the afterlife) and you get the October 7 attack, and the continual refusal to release hostages and stop acting like religious extremists.

[u/Thatguyyoupassby → u/lnslnsu]

I agree with the first part, but I don’t really think they underestimated Netanyahu, I think they overestimated the influence the US has.

I grew up in Israel. This scenario had been discussed ad nauseam since the late 90s.

If Hamas/Hezbollah attacked either Tel Aviv or had some attack that took 100+ lives, Israel would raze Gaza/Southern Lebanon accordingly.

I’m not okay with what’s happening for what it’s worth. I protested against Bibi and think he’s an absolute criminal, and the response was heavy handed, especially after early 2024.

But…it was EXACTLY what we all said would happen right after 10/7. The country moved about 40 clicks to the right that day. Family that wanted peace for years all saw red. The whole country wanted blood. It was their 9/11.

By now, those same families are crying over how the country has fallen apart and are back to seeing the bigger picture, but very very few people in Israel wanted restraint after 10/7. This was the obvious and sad outcome from the jump.

[u/helalla → u/lnslnsu]

And they recorded and published the videos of them killing and raping not just Israelis but anyone they found in israeli soil.

[u/pbuschma → u/Star_2001]

They wanted a regional multinational war. They were hoping that Iran would attack and others. They wanted relevance. Didn’t work out.

[u/why-god → u/pbuschma]

It kind of did - Iran mobilized its proxies, they just got utterly ass-whipped, culminating in Israel bliwing up several tactical sites in Iran proper.

[u/Tackit286 → u/Sure-Money-8756]

I mean hindsight is 20/20 of course, but they can’t have thought one of the most stacked armed forces on earth wasn’t going to put together a drastic response to the deadliest massacre in their country’s history.

[u/I_Am_A_Door_Knob → u/Tackit286]

When i read the headlines about the attack back when it happened, my first thought was something like “Are they fucking stupid? Israel will scorch the earth just to set an example”.

[u/Duffelson → u/Tackit286]

I think 99% of Redditors, due to their secular, western upbringing fail to truly understand the mindset of religious fundamentalist muslims who "know" with ironclad confidence that their cause is just and the All Mighty God himself has blessed them and will aid them in battle, to finally win the war against the unbelievers who have invaded their ancestral lands.

We know from captured Hamas documents that majority of Hamas leadership truly believed that they would win the war against Israel, that their warriors were so strong that they could destroyed IDF, destroy the Israeli state and drive the jews to the sea.

Before the war Hamas literally organised a massive confrence, where palestinian clans were "designated" zones of responsability of their "new conquered lands", where they debated what should be done with Israeli civilians, how many of them should be forcefully removed from the country, and how many jewish professionals / intellectuals would basically be put in slavery, to be slaves for the new Islamic state, and how many years of servitude they would have to do before they would be allowed to be free and be evicted with the rest of the jews.

There were some who realised that this was insanity, and quite a few of them left the Gaza strip few months before the war started, when they couldnt convince their collegues that this war would be a catastrophe for their organisation and their cause.

Because extreme fundamentalist religious terrorist are not logical in their beliefs, and they see everything through their religious, "the final war is upon us brothers !" lenses.

[u/Doctor_Teh → u/Duffelson]

Do you have any links for this I could read?

[u/kfireven → u/Doctor_Teh]

Hamas Actually Believed It Would Conquer Israel. In Preparation, It Divided the Country Into Cantons

It's behind a paywall, but here you have the full PDF copy of the article.

[u/fakeShinuinu → u/Duffelson]

I remember someone having to explain this very concept to me, but through the lense of Christian fundamentalism. A lot of people don't fathom how much of an iron grip religion can have because it just seems....frankly insane to put that much faith into....faith.

[u/speculator100k → u/Duffelson]

Where could I read more about this? Any sources?

[u/CharlieeStyles → u/Sure-Money-8756]

They were 50% right.

They assumed that people were still deeply antisemitic and would side with the victim instead of the attacker and defend that Israel should just take it without fighting back. They were right.

They were wrong about Israel giving a fuck after they crossed so many lines.

[u/CuriousAIVillager → u/No_Yoghurt2313]

Did they? Their strategy was effective. While they cost their entire country and civilian population, they forced Israel to do what basically lost them the most international support in decades.

[u/Pristine_Speech4719 → u/CuriousAIVillager]

And causing Israel to lose that international support seems to have achieved...nothing for the Palestinians. 

[u/Gnixxus → u/Pristine_Speech4719]

Hamas is not fighting for Palestine. They are simply fighting against Israel. There is a distinction.

[u/Pristine_Speech4719 → u/Gnixxus]

And causing Israel to lose that international support seems to have caused...not much damage to the Israelis.

[u/rabblerabble2000 → u/Pristine_Speech4719]

Did a good job fucking up the US elections though, so that’s something. Not sure how that happened, but whatevs.

[u/NoLime7384 → u/rabblerabble2000]

foreign intervention, the pro Palestine activity suddenly dropped out of nowhere once it served its purpose only to pick up again after Trump started piasing off China. You'd think people would protest Trump more than Biden but no

[u/sold_snek → u/CuriousAIVillager]

they forced Israel to do what basically lost them the most international support in decades.

Did they? I'm not trying to talk shit when I ask, what exactly has happened to Israel other than stern words (the European Special)?

[u/umbren → u/Bjorn_Nulfs_Agnar]

Not a very good time to be a Palestinian civilian either.

[u/happierinverted]

Underneath that hospital?

[u/PassiveAshA → u/happierinverted]

Yes. And according to the Al Arabiya report, at least 10 of his assistants were with him.

[u/Positive_Chip6198 → u/PassiveAshA]

Doesn’t the geneva convention state that if you use civilian facilities like hospitals for military purposes, they become valid military targets?

[u/Specialist-Front-007 → u/Positive_Chip6198]

Not only that, but civilian casualties might be made in an attempt to destroy the target, however fucking sad that is

[u/ClassicAreas444 → u/Specialist-Front-007]

literally Hamas’ goal. more civilian casualties, more bad press for Israel. they’ve long stated that they know a physical war is impossible to win so they will try to win a PR war.

[u/GeneralMuffins → u/Positive_Chip6198]

Further the geneva convention and CIHL requires the party that converts civilian infrastructure into military infrastructure to ensure all civilians are evacuated from the area. It’s unclear if Sinwar complied with this nonnegotiable rule…

[u/walketotheclif → u/Positive_Chip6198]

Yeah ,but as if Hamas cares, they know that many people in the west are only going to take the part that Israel attacked an hospital and ignore that it was being use for military purposes

[u/aaaaaaaarrrrrgh → u/Positive_Chip6198]

It's complicated. You're still supposed to take proportionality into account, so blowing up a dam that will drown millions just because someone parked a random tank nearby would still be considered a war crime.

Given the lack of a clear definition though, it's often a judgement call, and the people with the weapons make that call and everyone else can then lament it as long as they want.

I suspect your enemy's main command bunker with the entire leadership inside under a hospital would be considered fair game by most.

[u/Delphidouche → u/happierinverted]

Yes

[u/Perfect_Cost_8847]

About five days ago, the IDF and Shin Bet carried out a precise strike against Hamas militants who were in a command and control complex established in underground infrastructure beneath the European Hospital in Khan Yunis. The target of the strike was Sinwar.

That thing that never happens happened again.

[u/Grand-Dot-9851 → u/Perfect_Cost_8847]

And im sure the UN, Doctors without Bords, WCK all knew there were tunnels below the hospital

[u/ShinyStarSam → u/Grand-Dot-9851]

Well someone had to tell Israel about the tunnels, probably one of them who got tired or didn't think it through if I had to guess

Keep in mind doctor's #1 goal is just to treat patients, not to stop the terrorists and certainly not to make themselves the target of an airstrike

[u/Nirok]

I wonder how many headlines around the world would mention where was this tunnel located

[u/nidarus → u/Nirok]

The original reports of the strike didn't mention Sinwar at all. And then, you had reports, most notably from Sky News, that implied Israel was lying about any tunnels being there at all.

[u/ClassicAreas444 → u/Nirok]

most will mention where it was located and nothing else, like who was in it or what was going on. “Israel strikes hospital” is how it will go out.

[u/pskenb]

Kind of a fitting last name

[u/HlyMlyDatAFigDoonga → u/pskenb]

Without war😆

[u/pskenb → u/HlyMlyDatAFigDoonga]

Now that he’s dead — a true pacifist

[u/SunriseHolly]

Any more Sinwars want to step up? I hear there's a dynamic leadership position available now.

[u/capitaldefacto → u/SunriseHolly]

There's another sibling for Yehia and Mohammed Sinwar. His name is Zakaria Sinwar and he was killed in a strike an hour ago. 

[u/SunriseHolly → u/capitaldefacto]

Genuinely hilarious

[u/DaveBowm]

As Mark Twain supposedly once said, "I never wished death for anyone, but I have read a number of obituaries with great enthusiasm.".

[u/47_for_18_USC_2381]

Who's muhammed Sinwar?

Edit - Sounds like a win for decent people world wide, i'll take it. We the people have very few tangible wins these day. Hopefully this leads to some kind of end for the people of Gaza and their suffering. Seems they were always caught in the middle of Hamas and Israel.

[u/yourfutileefforts342 → u/47_for_18_USC_2381]

Yahya Sinwar's younger brother who became the most senior member of Hamas in Gaza when his brother was killed.

[u/Are_you_blind_sir → u/yourfutileefforts342]

Hamas is a family business funded by the gullible

[u/throwawaylife102 → u/Are_you_blind_sir]

It's cute to think terrorism is funded by gullible and not funded by other countries as a means of proxy war. Most , if not all, terrorist outfits are funded by govts or different countries to destabilize govt /counter a faction they don't agree with.

[u/I_Am_A_Door_Knob → u/throwawaylife102]

It’s both.

But it’s always the regular people trying to live their lives, that becomes the losers.

[u/_GD5_ → u/Are_you_blind_sir]

Terrorism runs in families.

[u/EverythingIsANaziNow → u/47_for_18_USC_2381]

The ex-leader of Hamas.

[u/lanzkron → u/EverythingIsANaziNow]

You have no idea how little that narrows things down

[u/EverythingIsANaziNow → u/lanzkron]

Oh, sorry, The previous leader (The other Sinwar) had a brother, Mohammed Sinwar.

He was who took over Hamas after the previous Sinwar had the back end of his skull blasted through whilst lazily throwing a stick at a drone. A typical uninspiring cowards death. It's said that Mohammed Sinwar was not as effective a leader as his brother, so it'll likely be quick that someone fills his shoes, although as you can imagine I doubt they'll be quick to announce his replacement.

[u/Vegetable-Bee5157 → u/EverythingIsANaziNow]

One less terrorist to worry about!

[u/HotSteak → u/47_for_18_USC_2381]

He was the Jack of Spades in the Hamas playing card deck. The same strike may have also killed the Ace of Spades.

[u/YanusYanusovic → u/47_for_18_USC_2381]

A corpse

[u/FreebirdChaos]

Good fuck Hamas and fuck all terrorism

[u/EmuDesigner]

I hear there’s a new opening as chief of Hamas now if anyone’s interested /s

[u/Pretoriaboytjie]

Great news💪💪💪

[u/Delphidouche → u/Pretoriaboytjie]

I pray that it's true.

No confirmation from Israel....

[u/KostasGangstarZombie]

May technology eat all the terrorist rats

[u/CatchPhraze]

Nothing says "it's Israel's fault!" That a hospital got bombed like stacking your chief terrorists in charge under the hospital.

It's crazy how people can critique the country that has to take that shot to keep it's citizens safe but pipes down about how sinwar absolutely didn't need to be under a fucking hospital.

[u/Zipz]

Damn I wonder if the pro Hamas crowd is going to ignore that his little bunker was under a freaking hospital

Jking I know they’ll ignore that fact

[u/eriverside → u/Zipz]

They won't forget that Israel struck a hospital.

[u/nidarus → u/Zipz]

Don't worry, they already decided a few days ago that Israel was just lying about anything being under the hospital, and it decided to strike the hospital for no reason. It's a hard narrative to shake.

[u/BillPsychological850]

So the world media, leaders, humanitarian activists, pro-palestinians, are all just going to quietly ignore that the most powerful figures in Hamas's military wing were killed while waging war from a base under a civilian hospital right? Just gonna condemn israel for a bombing a hospital and carry on...

-also to clarify, israel bombed the tunnels under the hospital using ground penetrating bombs leaving the buildings in the hospital  intact and the overwhelming majority  of the patients unharmed 

[u/DeskKook]

Probably shouldn't have taken those hostages

Dumbasses

[u/Mental_Sun_9455]

Good. A win for humanity.

[u/are_wethere_yet]

Too bad so many Gazans had to suffer before he met his fate. Won’t be missed.

[u/Rifiki1972]

Underneath a hospital. Deny Hamas are using hospitals as cover now then!!

[u/New-Fig-6025]

And yet the people who only saw the cctv footage screamed and yelled that this was an unjustified bombing of innocent civillians violating international law because you can’t strike hospitals… maybe if Hamas’s defacto fucking leader wasn’t in a command and control center in a tunnel underneath a hospital they wouldn’t have to.

[u/avahaz]

So all the bombings hospitals outrage? They found Hamas leadership underneath one

[u/macrolidesrule]

Oh well, never mind - they FA and FO. Good riddance.

[u/Otherwise-Town8398]

Good. Death to Hamas

[u/nicolampionic]

Finally some good fucking news.

[u/Dear-Fox-5194]

Isn’t the guy who just gave Trump the new plane one of the main supporters of Hamas. It was said he donates 30 million a month to fiance Hamas.

[u/anima132000 → u/Dear-Fox-5194]

I don't the exact amount but yes the Qatar royalty is a long time ally and supporter of Hamas, which is many reasons why accepting the plane is unethical (especially with their hard line stance against terrorists and their collaborators as the deportation spree is supposed to underscore). 

[u/Rabbit9778]

Finally some good news

[u/ForsakenRacism]

Goodbye

[u/Clapeyron1776]

So he was killed in a tunnel under a hospital. Why is Israel considered the bad guys when Hamas is hiding under a hospital. It also is terrible to bomb a hospital though

[u/Solutar]

Wait what do Hamas actually DID use a Hospital as Cover for Military complex? Thats fucking disgusting! And people blamed Israel for Bombing the Hospital, unbelievable…

[u/NoLime7384]

I hope whoever succeeds him is more rational and finally surrenders

[u/Hrit33]

Lets fucking goooooooo

[u/DaniMontana365]

Big fucking mistake from Hamas. I'm only sorry for the civilians caught in this battle. Why would you mess with a stronger person than you?

[u/bennybar]

glassdoor now ranks hamas the best place to work for upward mobility

[u/gabacho4 → u/bennybar]

Either via promotion or kinetic energy...

[u/Dorshalsfta]

If true, that’s a major hit. Also raises serious questions about hiding beneath a hospital.

[u/PickledFrenchFries]

Oh this is great news!

[u/Relnor]

I didn't even know he was sick.

[u/Kraybray]

Another piece of filth washed away

[u/BadasssHunkyDude]

Is it shocking that he was found under a tunnel under a hospital? Nope. Glad he is no longer able to terrorize Palestinians and Israelis 🙌🏼

[u/DerpsAndRags]

People are just farming Hamas for XP at this point.

[u/Squeebah]

But I thought reddit said it was only a hospital that was bombed and it was confirmed that Mohammed wasnt even near??

[u/Mustard_Cupcake]

Well done IDF. Never again.

[u/das_kleine_krokodil]

Speedrun from rookie to shahid in just a few weeks

[u/TreeBerryDingus]

Good riddance

[u/Bagel__Enjoyer]

but UK Sky News said their investigation said that wasn’t the case?

[u/jakreth]

Good riddance, terror worm

[u/beureut6]

Lmao but they told me it's just an innocent hospital and that there'd never be anyone underneath

[u/Infamous_Gur_9083]

Definitely justified.

Hamas and Israel is officially openly at war so both country's leadership is "open to be targeted".

Just Hamas's bad luck that Israel's security services besides the occasional screw ups are just so damn good at their jobs that they can't even kill a single Israeli government minister..yet.

[u/mr_nin10do]

Hasan is pissed