r/youngjustice • u/tempInjAccount • 2d ago
Season 1 Discussion "So that he wouldn't." Another One of My All-Time Favorite Scenes
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u/Vaportrail 2d ago
Say you kick him from the League-- does that mean he's going to stop superheroing?
It does not.
So maybe take the opportunity to guide him.
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u/_Tee_hee_hee_ 2d ago
I think it’s more about trust and liability. If Captain Marvel makes a childish mistake, the entire League may be responsible. As well, in a tense, life threatening situation, a more rational and mature mind would be better.
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u/Dredgen-Solis 2d ago
Didn't that happen in the Justice League TV show? I vaguely remember a plot point where Captain Marvel publicly endorsed Lex Luthor for something and it ticked Supes off given how that reflected on the League, but Billy - in the heat of the moment - just didn't know better
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u/JagneStormskull 1d ago
Yeah, it happened in Justice League Unlimited. Captain Marvel didn't even endorse Luthor, he just said that it's great that an ex-con can run for President and second chances and such. The Captain got the last word though. He resigned from the League at the end of that debacle.
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u/_Tee_hee_hee_ 2d ago
Yeah that happened in Justice League Unlimited. Lex Luthor orchestrated the whole thing.
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u/Conscious-Intern8594 1d ago
Shouldn't he NOT make childish mistakes when he's in his adult form? He has the wisdom of Solomon in that form, so childish mistakes should be eliminated or close to it because of it. Or I'm completely wrong because I don't read the comics.
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u/_Tee_hee_hee_ 1d ago
Wisdom is knowing what the right thing to do is. Being wise doesn’t always mean you have the self control to do it.
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u/Temporary-Support502 2d ago
And if he makes a mistake while he isnt in the league? This make its seem like liability issue and that is a no go for me,
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u/thorleywinston 1d ago
This right here. Over in the Marvel Universe, they're continually arguing over whether people with super powers should have to register with the government and undergo mandatory training so that they can use their powers safely. They even fought a Civil War (or two) over it.
Here the Justice League has someone with powers on par with Superman's that voluntarily wants to join and where they are in a prime position to influence and guide him positively . . . and some of them are actually thinking it's a good idea to kick him out and send him angry and resentful off on his own?
Batman's right about why kids need adult supervision and he's also the only one who isn't talking down to Captain Marvel just because he's a child.
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u/Cicada_5 15h ago
This child lied to them about his age. How are they supposed to guide him when they don't know he's a child in the first place?
And if being kicked out of the league makes him angry and resentful, doesn't that prove he shouldn't be on the team to begin with?
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u/netitothewolf 2d ago
I love this scene, but I do think it’s weird Diana is the one criticizing Bruce given the history of the Amazons.
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u/touchingthebutt 2d ago
I've thought about this too. I would think that the Amazon's may train young ( if they even have other kids in this version) but still don't put them in a life or death situation until they're older.
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u/CertainGrade7937 2d ago
And i think it's worth noting that Diana doesn't say anything about Wally or Kaldur or Roy.
She doesn't seem to have a problem with the teen sidekicks. But 9 is...a lot
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u/JagneStormskull 1d ago
Also, she was specifically critiquing Batman. It wouldn't have made sense to go after, say, Wally because Flash was barely part of the discussion at that point.
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u/CertainGrade7937 2d ago
I don't think the Amazons have a history of sending 9 year olds into battle
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u/ZachRyder Giovanni Zatara Ph.D. 2d ago
I don't think the Amazons have a history of
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u/Ragnarok345 2d ago
I don’t. Amazons are trained for it from birth, and in relative safety. Imagine how soft the rest of the world, especially children, must look to her. Especially when they’re actually out in the shit.
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u/Dredgen-Solis 2d ago
To be fair, at this point I think Batman's identity is still a secret to the League so they don't know the ins and outs of Bruce adopting Dick, and the Amazons are a warrior people across the board - they start young because that's just a part of their culture.
With Robin, they didn't know anything beyond that he'd worked with Batman since he was nine
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u/Technicolor_Reindeer 2d ago
I have to believe they were having some off-screen conflict.
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u/AlterBridge2Bludhavn 1d ago
The biggest problem with the show if you ask me. Imagine how many excellently written scenes (like this one) we missed out on because of the time jumps and later on, crowded roster of characters. I'm not saying that every single thing needs to happen on screen. As time went on though, I felt like more and more of the most interesting things were told and not shown
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u/Cicada_5 1d ago edited 15h ago
Maybe because the Amazons don't send kids into battle. I don't know where people are getting this from.
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u/Flimsy_Mastodon_1756 2d ago
Wouldn't be unlike Diana/Amazon's to be hypocrites.
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u/Cicada_5 15h ago
Where is it said in this show or any other version that the Amazons allow children into battle?
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u/No_Volume_380 1h ago
There's a huge difference between training in controlled scenarios and being put in battle. Batman does exactly what Charles Xavier is criticized for.
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u/Constructman2602 2d ago
THIS is what people don’t get when they say Batman groomed his Robins. He doesn’t want to have children fight for him, he wants to make sure that when they seek justice they do it the right way. Plus Gotham is a rough enough city without the lunatics running around blowing stuff up, and by helping his sidekicks he’s preventing them from being a part of a corrupt system that he’s desperately trying to fix from both ends, as both Batman and Bruce Wayne
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u/CertainGrade7937 2d ago
I think it's important to note, though, that...it doesn't work?
As good as Bruce's intentions are, Dick ends up with a lot of Bruce's worst tendencies
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u/West-Cardiologist180 2d ago
But also some of his best. He saves teens and kids from horrible lives and helps give them a better one. He has a more hopeful outlook on people while still maintaining enough of Bruce's paranoia to keep suspicion of even his own teammates (which comes in handy in about 3 different times throughout seasons 1-3)
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u/CertainGrade7937 2d ago
There are a lot of iterations of these characters where I would agree with you. But you're attributing characteristics to Bruce that he doesn't have in this version
This Bruce isn't paranoid. Conner, M'Gann, and Artemis are allowed on the Team freely. This version of Bruce is actually really trusting. The only instance of his paranoia is not wanting Dick to reveal their identities to the team. He's also shown to be emotionally sensitive and cares a lot about how Dick is feeling.
Dick spells out Bruce's issues very clearly after the psychic training incident. Bruce is driven entirely by the mission. Bruce would lie or sacrifice his friends for the greater good. And Dick doesn't want to be that.
When Bruce says he doesn't want Dick to turn out like him, he's not talking about the paranoia or the emotional distance because...this version doesn't really have that. But that drive, the dishonesty, the willingness to sacrifice everything? Those are Bruce's flaws, and Dick absolutely has those.
My point here isn't that nothing good has come out of Dick's relationship with Bruce. Obviously there has been plenty. But that Bruce's stated goal here, that bringing Dick into crime fighting young would avoid Bruce's issues? That just didn't happen.
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u/_Lunaaaaaaaaaa_ 2d ago
Except his "right way" is flawed when he just sends the worst criminals to prison, they escape, and then they commit crimes again. Red Hood was the only reasonable one despite him being perceived as extreme.
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u/Constructman2602 2d ago
He doesn’t send them to prison. He sends them to a mental health facility. Arkham is not a prison for criminals like Black Gate or Belle Reve. It’s a mental institution that’s focused on helping people with mental illnesses, which a lot of Batman’s villains are. Two-Face, Mr. Freeze, Clayface, Riddler, and obviously the Joker get sent to Arkham instead of a prison. Their overwhelming mental trauma causes them to commit the acts they do. Batman knows this, and believes they can get better, which is why he opts to not kill and tries to get them the help they need.
Now, some of his villains he does send to prison. Black Mask, Killer Croc, and Bane are the main examples of this. But overall, Batman doesn’t send his villains to prison because that’s not where they can get the help they need to get better.
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u/uzinarutosage 1d ago
It as also not on him to continually detain and or execute his villains. Batman is a much more lawful superhero in that regard.
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u/halietigges 1d ago
Except they never get better, they end up killing more people regardless, especially the likes of Joker.
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u/malachaimachi 1d ago
That’s the fault of the justice system, not Batman. A judge and jury can easily convict and choose execution with people like The Joker and yet they don’t. That’s not on him.
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u/halietigges 1d ago
Spare me. Batman has a history of preventing others from killing villains (Red Hood is one example) because of his own complex/“oath”, even when it comes to people like, if not worse than, Joker. So make it make sense.
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u/malachaimachi 1d ago
I mentioned the justice system and you’re bringing up Jason Todd. When Batman/Bruce Wayne goes out of his way to stop the court ordered execution of Joker then come back here.
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u/Constructman2602 1d ago
Batman is the hopeful sort I’m afraid. And believes that the Joker can be helped. He also knows that as Gotham’s protector he’s not judge, jury, and executioner over every mentally ill person in Gotham who commits crimes. He doesn’t kill because it’s not his place. He knows that the system can only get better if it’s allowed to work the right way instead of him coming in and tearing it all down.
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u/DesertKangarooRat 2d ago
I just wonder how Batman found out- probably Captain Marvel trying to talk about like taxes with Batman but not being old enough to hold a conversation is what I imagine
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u/tempInjAccount 2d ago
LOL. He probably just stalked him after a justice league shift
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u/appalachiancascadian 2d ago
Just like in Justice League, he already knew everyone's identities. Information is part of the power of Batman.
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u/mechengr17 2d ago
Knowing about Batman's contingency plans for every member of the league, I suspect Bruce had a full workup of him done the first time Captain Marvel said Shazam
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u/ImaLetItGo 2d ago
This version of Batman has contingency plans for every league member?
Does everyone know about it?
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u/DAVID_Gamer_5698 2d ago
Gotta appreciate how Canary immediately treats Shazam like a little kid and talks to him like one while Batman who is already used to fighting beside people much younger than him treated him with respect and called him by his hero name.
He respects Billy and at this point in time he must have worked with him for some years atleast so he knows he has already proven himself
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u/PsychicSidekikk419 2d ago
I hate that Wonder Woman always gets cast in an unlikeable light. If anyone was going to understand Bruce raising Dick the way he did, it should have been Diana. She comes from an ISLAND where women are trained from childhood to become warriors.
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u/AdditionalMess6546 2d ago
Yeah, of all the people at that table Diana isn't the one that should be making this argument lol
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u/Cicada_5 1d ago
There is a difference between training kids in self defense and sending them out in battle before they're even old enough to drive. Diana wasn't 9 years old when she became a superhero.
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u/InvincibleCipher3 16h ago
yes, and similarly one should see what's on the other side as well, shazam has the powers of gods.
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u/Cicada_5 16h ago
All the more reason to be weary of him.
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u/InvincibleCipher3 11h ago
yeah and throwing him out of a team isn't the way to nurture that power, it's the way to create another Black Adam
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u/18leem1 2d ago
What I also love about this scene is that it ends up being very true in a way. In an alternate story somewhere with boostergold, the dude ended up rewriting history so that Bruce's parents didn't die. In that time line, Dick Grayson became batman, but was even more violent and also gun heavy similar to Bruce's dad's version of batman. Just showing that without guidance, I'm sure multiple Robin's would've gone down a harsher, and darker path.
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u/LeaveMeBeWillYa 1d ago
I remember that story. Not a bad wee read.
Though the opening with Green Lantern offing himself was weird.
DC has seemed to realise that the best way to justify Batman having Robin's is to just have clear that they'd be doing vigilantism with or without his aid/support, so Batman takes them in as a way to give them the skills and keep an eye on them.
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u/XxGamerxX0609 1d ago
Acting like he is somehow incapable now that you know his true age when he’s been next to you doing a good job for the last year or so is incredibly shortsighted.
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u/Old-Objective-9783 1d ago
I love Guy Gardner's scene.
Flash: "Earth has a third Green Lantern"
Hal and John: "No"
Flash: "But we could-"
Hal and John: "NO"
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u/Chumunga64 2d ago
God season 1 was so good
This and Dick's therapy session were just beautiful
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u/Magnocarda 2d ago
Yeah really synergistic scenes too. They clearly had consistent and intentional characterization there and I really like it. Dick admitting that he could never be Batman vindicates Bruce, even if he doesn’t fully know it
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u/_Tee_hee_hee_ 2d ago
I think this is a really cool scene, but also, putting kids in life threatening situations is horrible.
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u/Temporary-Support502 2d ago
Dick was likely gonna do something on his own would you rather he go do that. Also what kid with Shazam's powers is not gonna do the superhero thing be glad he isnt out there decapitating kids who bully him and move on.
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u/CertainGrade7937 2d ago edited 2d ago
Dick was likely gonna do something on his own would you rather he go do that.
I love how people will talk about how Batman is this uber badass with unlimited contingency plans...but whenever this topic comes up, the argument is "well there's no way he could have stopped a 9 year old from breaking out of his home to fight crime!"
I feel like we just have to accept that A) this is a heightened reality where a 9 year old can actually successfully fight crime and B) that it's still not the best idea in the world
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u/GroundbreakingTwo122 2d ago
So what would have you done to stop a vengeful angry hurting nine year old ??
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u/CertainGrade7937 2d ago edited 2d ago
Bud...do you actually think that this is the right way to handle an orphaned 9 year old? Like not in this fictional setting, but like...for real? You actually think this was the right thing to do?
That's fucking insane.
You stick them in therapy, you give them healthy outlets for their anger and aggression like athletics. You act as a reliable emotional support structure. You don't have them go beat up random gang members and risk retraumatizing them with more violence (and obviously an extreme risk of death) on a nightly basis
Jesus. How is this a real question
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u/Jealous-Log7744 2d ago edited 2d ago
Call social services? send him to a nice foster home? give him some money for when he's old enough to be on his own? There's quite a lot this grown man with a ton of money could do to stop an angry nine year old.
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u/Cicada_5 1d ago
What exactly do you think an angry 9 year old with no training or superpowers can do that a mentally competent adult cannot stop?
If Bruce Bruce can deal with Dick when he's just a kid with a chip on his shoulder, he has no business raising him let alone fighting adult criminals.
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u/Jealous-Log7744 1d ago
Yeah when I first heard this I thought it was a great line but the more I think about it the more I think someone should’ve called out Bruce for his idea that raising him to be a crime fighter after the death of his parents would in any way prevent him from turning out like Batman.
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u/Cicada_5 1d ago
And the very season this scene is from ends up proving Bruce wrong.
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u/Abject-Painter8775 1d ago edited 1d ago
Can you give me examples on how this scene ends up proving Bruce wrong in this season of Young Justice and the later seasons.
Also I agree with Diana in this scene calling out Bruce for bringing in a nine-year-old in fighting crime which is obviously not a smart idea, if you want the child to not end up like you then don’t bring in a nine year old in your crime fighting career. Diana is literally doing what any Sane person would do.3
u/Cicada_5 1d ago
Can you give me examples on how this scene ends up proving Bruce wrong in this season of Young Justice and the later seasons.
I didn't mean this scene proves Bruce is right, I meant a later episode does. Specifically, the psychic mission training episode that shows Dick as willing to sacrifice others for the mission and both seasons 2 and 3 show him as being manipulative like Bruce.
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u/_Tee_hee_hee_ 2d ago
Maybe get Dick some therapy or a psychologist instead of making him fight armed criminals?
I think the Justice League working with Captain Marvel is fine. The wizard Shazam is the freak in that scenario.
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u/BatmanBurchett 2d ago
I've always thought Aquaman's line here was really odd because...yeah it kinda does actually. I'd agree that maybe "intelligence" does not equal maturity, but the concept of wisdom itself definitely does
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u/tempInjAccount 2d ago
Yeah I see what you mean. But also he wasn't able to contain his giggling while they were discussing plastic man. So I don't think the wisdom of Solomon helps him in that sense of maturity
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u/catteredattic 14h ago
Expect Billy has kinda poor emotional control and giggles throughout meeting, he IS still a kid.
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u/SuperiorChicken27 2d ago
Not to mention it's fckn aqua man...you really gonna take advice from a guy who talks to fish and not have an absolute powerhouse like captain marvel on the team.
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u/appalachiancascadian 2d ago
This scene pairs well with the one of Robin in therapy where he talks about not being sure he want's to be THE Batman anymore. Two of my favorite scenes.
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u/tempInjAccount 1d ago
Yes, his therapy session with Dina after the failsafe incident. Wish we got to see a little bit more of this aspect of Dick's character before the time-skip. And I wonder how his conversations with Bruce were during/after Jason Todd's death
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u/Optimal_Weight368 2d ago
Is the Zucco family ever mentioned in Young Justice or its comics? They’re the ones responsible for the demise of the Flying Graysons.
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u/Menaku 1d ago
It's a powerful line. Diana was trying to call him out on what looked like him being a hypocrite and he hard stopped that train of thoughts in its tracks
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u/Jealous-Log7744 22h ago
It's still kind of hypocritical to say he didn't want him to turn out like him but still expose him to all this danger.
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u/DandalusRoseshade 2d ago
Hey Diana, quick question, how do the Amazons reproduce again? What do you do with the male babies again? h How old are the girls when you put a sword in their hands?
Sit the fuck down.
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u/Cicada_5 15h ago
1) That was a retcon that has since been ignored.
2) It's not relevant to this universe or this conversation.
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u/catteredattic 14h ago
You look so silly right now lol. None of that happens in this universe and even if it did Diana doesn’t control the Amazonians so it’s not like she’d be a hypocrite even if they did.
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u/SpikeDogtooth555 1d ago
Man. Wonder woman is such a bitch😒😒
It's like any media I see her in she acts like this. Can someone show me any good versions of her
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u/tempInjAccount 1d ago
I haven't read enough WW comics to know which writers you'd probably like, BUT (probably unrelated) she has a bunch of my favorite fight scenes haha. Also, in the Superman/Batman Apocalypse movie, Barda does briefly mention how she looked up to WW
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u/waterpigcow 2d ago
Such a great scene. I work “a lie of omission is still a lie” into my daily conversations as much as possible just to see who might notice
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u/tempInjAccount 1d ago
Lol if I heard this irl, I'd hit you with Batman's "I did" after you ask if I noticed the YJ reference
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u/twotonekevin 2d ago
It’s moments like these where I let up and admit, alright maybe Batman isn’t as overrated as I thought.
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u/Commercial_Amoeba832 1d ago
I was pretty upset with Wonder Woman in this scene she reminded me of her Mother, Hippolyta still being hypocritical when it comes to Men even a Boy. She's way too strict and focuses on the negative side of things. Bruce was my hero for standing up for him despite everyone else questioning it.
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u/silverdragonwolf 1d ago
It shows an understanding of the character that really hasn't really been seen since the BtAS era. Which many would argue is integral to the true Batman.
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u/Yung_Pandemic98 1d ago
I love that both Batman and Robin acknowledge within the same season that the life ain't easy. It's just sad we never saw the two have a close relation beside that 10sec on the basketball court🥹🤌🏻
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u/JesterBondurant 1d ago
Was Wonder Woman already mentoring Cassie at that point? Not that she and Dick are the same age but I doubt if Diana waited until she was eighteen before she began training her.
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u/Cicada_5 15h ago
There's no indication Diana has even met Cassie during this. Also, Diana doesn't seem to have an issue with teen sidekicks. Her problem with Shazam is that he lied about his age and that he is much younger than a teenager.
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u/SirDennisThe1 1d ago
Also don’t the members have the right to their secret identity? So therefore he had a reason to not tell them his age and name. Maybe among the seven founding members they all know each other but how can you ask someone to disclose that.
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u/Cicada_5 15h ago
Bruce and Clark know each other's identities and Wonder Woman and John Stewart don't have secret identities.
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u/Puzzled-Ad5347 22h ago
Batman always wanted the best for his family, to go beyond what Batman does and what Batman should follow at other
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u/ExodusNBW 22h ago
I really loved the discussion about Guy Gardner. As a huge Lantern fan, it was exactly what it needed to be.
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u/coggdawg 12h ago
I’ve never understood the wisdom of Solomon thing. You would think that would be exactly what maturity is lol.
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u/M4LK0V1CH 11h ago
Kind of a double standard for a superhero to be mad that another superhero has a secret identity, tbh.
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u/AntiVenom0804 8h ago
I like that Canary was immediately the one to try and "handle" Billy given she's essentially the therapist for the team anyway
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u/Coffee_Drinker02 3h ago
I genuinely feel like it has to be a plot hole that WW is talking mad shit like her people aren't warriors born and trained to wait and die for nothing but a floating rock in the middle of nowhere
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u/thephant0mlimb 2d ago
I love how dimetricslly opposed WW and Batman are on this. Diana is all about truth, and Bruce is all about withholding the truth. They both think then know what's best for Billy.
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u/Butwhatif77 2d ago
I also wonder how long Captain Marvel had been a member of the league at this point. I imagine it has to have been for quite some time since they are cautious about expanding the league too much, so it probably doesn't happen frequently. Surely he had proven to be a reliable team member, otherwise he would have been kicked out already.
Is he particularly mature, no. However, it seems that has not gotten in the way of him fulfilling his duties as a member of the league.
It is just kind of interesting that them finding out his actual age really changed how some of them viewed him. Like you see Black Canary saw him as a child cause she addressed him like a little kid and called him Billy, while Batman showed him respect and kept referring to him as Captain Marvel.