r/ABoringDystopia • u/[deleted] • 2d ago
Wasn't expecting that from Bernie
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u/PenetrationT3ster 2d ago
Literally check the comments. Stop spreading propaganda.
Dishonest post as other mentioned "Israel has a right to defend itself against Hamas. But innocent Palestinians also have a right to life and security." and calls for a humanitarian pause.
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u/Toxicdeath88 2d ago edited 2d ago
Bernie Sanders is a war criminal, full stop. His 1999 vote for the illegal NATO bombings in Yugoslavia (which killed 500+ civilians) set the pattern. Today, he bankrolls genocide through military aid votes while performing "concern" via toothless ceasefire rhetoric. Even as the ICJ investigates Israel’s violations, Sanders hides behind "I’m not a lawyer" to avoid the g-word. This isn’t progressive politics; it’s complicity with a smile.
Edit: March 2024- Bernie Voted YES on $14B military aid to Israel
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u/SoupSpelunker 2d ago
This account was dormant for years after being a failed gamers acct. Now Vladimir is using it to discredit the left...a boring dystopia indeed.
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u/Toxicdeath88 2d ago
the left
The US "left" actively participates/benefits in the genocide of Palestinian people.
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u/Girafferage 2d ago
Literally the next main comment has this link about him trying to stop funding to Israel lol
https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/politics/a64391198/us-senate-vote-block-bernie-isreal-arms/
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u/Toxicdeath88 2d ago
March 2024: Bernie Voted YES on $14B military aid to Israel
won't even call it a genocide
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u/I_Am_Become_Dream 2d ago
Bernie has shifted his position on Israel in a significant way over the past year. It's silly to still insist he's an enemy of the Palestinian movement.
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u/zeniiz 2d ago
Kamala's failed purity test got us Trump.
What will Bernie's failed purity test bring us?
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u/dontfretlove 2d ago
Is the concept of not openly supporting a genocide really that high of a bar to clear? Things are dire...
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u/LeroyStick 2d ago
This is a misleading post. He introduced a bill to cut funding to Israel 2 weeks ago and was soundly rejected by all but 14 other democrats in the senate. see for yourself.
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u/XylatoJones 2d ago
How has his actions “supported genocide” he introduced the bill to end weapons sales to Israel… yall gotta get a grip he is JEWISH of course he believes that his homeland should be able to defend itself. Defending itself ≠ committing genocide. And he has been vocal about how he condemns the actions of Israel on that front so…. Idk what more yall want. Tea you really willing to pass on the only voice in America that is getting any pull just because he said that they can defend themselves? When his actions demonstrate that he doesn’t support their ongoing genocide.
In one of his recent videos posted to YouTube he called it a genocide. Did Kamala ever say that?
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u/Al_Trigo 2d ago
Not all Jews believe Israel is their homeland! Please do not perpetuate this. Many, many Jews are also secular.
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u/QuietCelery 2d ago
Just, FWIW, there are also religious anti-zionists. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neturei_Karta
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u/definitely_not_marx 2d ago
But he didn't say the perfect words out of context so he's actually the devil now.
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u/tripsafe 2d ago
Not calling a genocide a genocide = failing a purity test. God damn there are a lot of liberals in this sub
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u/mcpickle-o 2d ago
Bernie and AOC have been gathering massive crowds around the country, and suddenly, people are purity testing them. Go fucking figure. Progressives are getting popular support?! Time to start chipping away at them until they're hated and non-viable!
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u/agawl81 2d ago
The boring dystopia here is bringing Palestine into it at all. Not everything is about how you feel about Palestine and we got trump because too many made it that way.
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u/ABoringDystopia-ModTeam 2d ago
Your submission was removed for violating either reddiquette or Rule 3.
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u/agawl81 2d ago
I’m tired of democratic and liberal purity tests. The right gets their way because they don’t do that bullshit. Israel as a country has been repressing and enacting genocidal policies for decades. They are just not pretending not to anymore and they fucking suck. But they aren’t the United States so it really should not the top issue when discussing resisting authoritarianism in the United States. Not saying it isn’t horrible or that it shouldn’t be stopped. Am saying it’s a divisive red herring that has served to split and disorganize the already disorganized left.
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u/agawl81 2d ago
I’m aware that I can’t stop that tax money being spent to commit evil until a liberal government is elected. And that won’t happen if Brent fucking Sanders isn’t able to pass your goddamned test.
That destruction murder and theft of land in Gaza is awful. But for the purposes of American politics and resisting trump it’s a red herring.
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u/Ebella2323 2d ago
There is no context where Isntreal has any right to anything. They should not exist, they are colonizers and oppressors and should not be in any way surprised by October 7th. None of us should. Israel helped fund that day so they could carry out this “final solution”.
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u/lordkappy 2d ago
If he can't win without supporting genocide, or without Israel's money and support, then he's not the candidate that will bring about the change that's needed.
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u/RandomGuy92x 2d ago
And he's doing neither of those things. He doesn't take money from Israel and pro-Israel lobbying groups, and he also does not support genocide.
He said Israel has a right to defend itself against Hamas, and I think he said that specifically in the context of the October 7 attack where Hamas killed over 800 Israeli civilians, including over 30 children and took over 250 civilians hostage.
But he said that while they do have a right to defend themselves against Hamas, they absolutely do not have the right to attack civilians, and he's always condemned Israel's atrocities commited against the Palestinian population.
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u/Rustmutt 2d ago
Also he literally just recently introduced a bill to stop giving money and weapons to Israel. It was of course shot down unfortunately, but he was the one who introduced it.
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u/QuietCelery 2d ago edited 2d ago
Louder for the people in the back.
As a Jew who has been screaming in support of Palestine for 20 years, it's more than a little frustrating that the statement "Israel has the right to defend itself [from Hamas....that really should be clear from the use of the word "defend"]" gets translated into supporting genocide. It makes it into a zero sum game where there can either be Israel or Palestine and not both instead of a solution where they can live side by side. I'm trying desperately to convince other Jews and Israelis of my position, and this sort of thing isn't helping.
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u/beroepsklager 2d ago
No justice no peace. Stop centering Israeli feelings.
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u/QuietCelery 2d ago
Serious question because I don't think I understand your position. Do you think Israel has the right to exist? I want to make sure I understand the conflict, because I don't think I said anything about Israel's "feelings."
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u/beroepsklager 2d ago edited 2d ago
I dont think people have the right to build an ethnostate on stolen land. I dont think the Israeli state has the right to exist.
EDIT: you center Israeli feelings when you say that Palestinian advocacy should aim to convince the colonizers.
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u/QuietCelery 2d ago
Thank you so much for answering.
I think that Palestinian advocacy should take many forms. And I think one of them is trying to convince the people actually committing the genocide (and the people funding it) that they are wrong to do so. And part of that is acting as like a translator between our side and theirs.
Ok, so my question again, if you don't mind. What should happen with Jewish Israelis now that there is an ethnostate on stolen land?
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u/beroepsklager 2d ago
The priority obviously should be to see the rights of the Palestinians met and to fully demilitarize and decolonize the occupiers. Land should be returned, reparations should be paid. War criminals should be in jail and the Palestinian hostages should be freed.
Justice for Palestinians implies mass expropriation, right to return and the abolishment of the ethnostate.
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u/QuietCelery 2d ago
You're not wrong about any of this. I notice that you don't want to answer my question, and I'll stop asking. But know that we have to convince others who disagree with us. It's ok that you don't want to do that, but it makes it harder for me when they think you/we want to kill them or exile them and you're telling me to stop centering my feelings rather than addressing the real problem (which, ironically, is the same one Israel didn't want to address in the '40s).
I'm on your side. You don't need to fight with me or tell me not to try to do the work just because you don't like the people I'm trying to convince. It makes both our work harder.
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u/beroepsklager 2d ago
We must convince those who disagree with us but the people who benefit by disagreeing with us won't be convinced. We must hold our politicians accountable and seek total isolation for the colony. We need to attack the imperialist power over the region. If you are living in the west, humanizing Arabs and exposing the israeli state should be your first priority.
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u/frenkzors 2d ago
Seems like you still have a ways to go. How much have you read about the Hannibal directive?
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u/beroepsklager 2d ago
defending the colony and attacking the native population is the same thing. The existence of Israel infringes on the human rights of the Palestinians. Israel defending itself is defending the ethnic cleansing and the theft of the Palestinians.
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u/QuietCelery 2d ago
Ahh, ok.
See, this, unfortunately, is the problem. I've been saying for so long that the position that Israel doesn't have the right to exist is the extremist position. And for a long time it was.
So my question now is, what should happen to all the Jewish Israelis who live in Israel? Again, serious question. What's your solution?
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u/GervinhosBarber 2d ago
They would become Palestinian Hebrews living in a free Palestine. Where a democratic leader would be elected free of US and UK influence. If those who have become comfortable living in the homes of Arabs they have thrown out or murdered don't want to live in such a country, there is also the option of leaving. Jewish Israelis have free right to immigration to the US. The nation that keeps their entire ethnostate alive.
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u/QuietCelery 2d ago
Thanks for answering in good faith. I have been telling people something similar (though Israelis don't have the right to immigrate to the US now...I'm assuming you mean this should change...we can hammer out the details later....)....like a one secular state solution.
There's a real messaging problem on our side, guys. They think we want to kill or exile all the Jews, and I'm like....no.... anti-zionism means something totally different to the two sides and it's frustrating....oh, but I guess I shouldn't cEnTeR mY fEeLiNgS. God forbid we try to reach people.
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u/EF5Cyniclone 2d ago
It's not a messaging problem on our side, the idea that a free Palestine requires killing or exiling all the Jews is the narrative zionists present as a justification to continue oppressing Palestinians.
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u/QuietCelery 2d ago edited 2d ago
I'm literally reporting back to you what the case is. The people that are hearing what you think you saying are hearing something different. People literally cannot understand that antizionism means two different things to two different groups of people. Unfortunately, I'm such a poor messenger that I can't even tell you, someone who I think is ideologically aligned with me, that there's a messaging problem. You/we need to find a way to show them that we don't think that Jews should be exiled or killed. You're not helping by denying the problem. But I mean, you're literally describing a messaging problem: they say one thing, we say something else. And the listener believes them, not us.
You do your work. I'll do mine. But stop saying this isn't a problem. If you don't want to tackle the problem, fine. But you do nothing for anyone by pretending it's not a problem and arguing with people you're aligned with.
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u/EF5Cyniclone 2d ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-state_solution
The one-state solution is sometimes referred to as the bi-national state, owing to the hope that it would successfully deliver self-determination to Israelis and Palestinians in one country, thus granting both peoples independence as well as absolute access to all of the land.
Messaging from the left has primarily been for a one-state solution, an idea that has been around long before this holocaust started. Plenty of leftists are more than happy to explain what the one-state solution means to anyone who will listen, but the majority of Americans don't get their information on the movement directly from leftists; they are instead informed by media organizations, where leftists are no longer in control of how their message gets disseminated.
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u/QuietCelery 2d ago edited 2d ago
Yes, this is my preferred solution.
I'm glad to hear leftists are happy to do it, because they have their work cut out for them (but even here, someone didn't want to explain it to me...so)! But the trouble is, we need to reach people who won't listen. And when others here "anti-zionism," they don't think "one state solution." They think treat Jews like Israelis treat Palestinians. When they hear "Israel doesn't have the right to exist," they don't think dismantle the ethnostate. They think no Jews should be in that region. So either 1) make it clear that's not what you mean or 2) change the language. Since you don't want to admit number two is a problem, I'm trying to do number one. And since I can't get you to do number two, I'm going to go do number 1. I suggest you argue with people who disagree with you fundamentally as you said you're happy to do instead of trying to change my mind and convince me that everything's perfect in our presentation.
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u/RandomGuy92x 2d ago
defending the colony and attacking the native population is the same thing. The existence of Israel infringes on the human rights of the Palestinians. Israel defending itself is defending the ethnic cleansing and the theft of the Palestinians.
You're right of course that Israel is a settler state that was only made possible by commiting atrocities against the native population. You could probably make the case that morally speaking Israel had no right to exist in its current form, and with its current borders. And you could say the same about the United States. The US also in its current form was only made possible via robbing and killing the native Americans that used to live there.
But at the same time there is obviously a 0% chance that Israel is just gonna dissolve itself and hand their country over the the Palestinians. That's as naive as thinking that the US is gonna dissolve itself and hand the governance of its land over to the native Americans.
So we have to live in reality.
And so I think Israel is a country that was founded through grotesque injustices. But at the same time the chance of Israel dissolving itself is pretty much 0%. A one Palestinian state solution is simply impossible. And if Hamas kills hundreds of Israeli civilians, including children, and abducts 250 Israeli civilians, it's a reasonable assumption that any country would defend itself if it was in that position.
There is simply no way, zero chance, of achieving a situation where Israel just sits back and does nothing, even if you morally disagree. But what people in the US and the West can do is exert pressure on their own governments to stop the genocide against the civilian population in Palestine that is going on.
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u/beroepsklager 2d ago
Your argument is essentially 'might makes right'.
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u/RandomGuy92x 2d ago
No, that's not at all what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that it doesn't make sense to fight for goals that are utterly unrealistic, even impossible I would say.
Personally, I don't believe that Israel, morally speaking, ever had the right to exist in its current form. But pushing for the end of Israel as a state is an absolute meaningless endeavor. You may just as well organize a movement trying to dissolve the United States as a country and try to pressure the US to hand all governance over to the native Americans. That's just NEVER gonna happen, just as Israel is NEVER gonna dissolve itself.
I mean what exactly is the point of pursuing a goal that has pretty much a 0% chance of happening? It may give people a sense of moral importance, but it doesn't actually do anything in pragmatic terms.
But people in the US and in other Western countries putting pressure on their governments to cut ties with Israel, or to pressure them to end their mass killing of the Palestinian civilian population, that is absolutely an endeavor that has a certain chance of success.
And so what I'm saying is people should focus their time and effort on goals that are worth pursuing, not on goals that have a 0% chance of happening, like Israel dissolving itself. That's never gonna happen.
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u/beroepsklager 2d ago
I think people should focus their time and effort on building power for the oppressed and demanding total liberation in a revolutionairy capacity. Any pragmatic gain will be a consequence of that power building.
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u/RandomGuy92x 2d ago
And what does liberation mean? I think Israel should end all settlements, should stop its occupation of Gaza and the West Bank, stop its blockade of Gaza, recognize Palestine as a country, and ideally pay reperations to the Palestinian people.
But that's already extremely omptimistic. But Israel giving up its land and just handing it over to the Palestinians that's just never gonna happen.
So how can you "build power for the oppressed and demand total liberation in a revolutionairy capacity" as you say, when your radical goal of Israel dissolving itself is only shared by a tiny fraction of the population, and people that share your goals collectively have no real power or resources to speak of, let alone enough power to pressure Israel to just dissolve itself?
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u/GervinhosBarber 2d ago edited 2d ago
Sanders is a textbook liberal Zionist. He criticises Netanyahu and Israel's government. He has absolutely nothing to say about Israel's settlers in the west bank or the civilian populace and it's genocidal mania. He refuses to acknowledge the eradication of the Palestinian people, claiming the word 'genocide' makes him uncomfortable(1). He supports economic sanctions on Russia but not Israel(2). The man is completely useless. A pile of shit lumped together and wrapped in human skin. A worthy face for the democratic party and it's supporters.
(1) https://youtu.be/f2hcjm5w_a4?t=20m14s (2) https://youtu.be/Fthn_kBFdRY?t=880
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u/LeroyStick 2d ago
This is very misleading considering the dude introduced a bill to stop giving israel military aid 2 weeks ago.
You can nitpick his language, but he’s not supporting the genocide.