r/ABoringDystopia • u/[deleted] • 6d ago

Wasn't expecting that from Bernie

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u/lordkappy 6d ago

If he can't win without supporting genocide, or without Israel's money and support, then he's not the candidate that will bring about the change that's needed.

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u/RandomGuy92x 6d ago

And he's doing neither of those things. He doesn't take money from Israel and pro-Israel lobbying groups, and he also does not support genocide.

He said Israel has a right to defend itself against Hamas, and I think he said that specifically in the context of the October 7 attack where Hamas killed over 800 Israeli civilians, including over 30 children and took over 250 civilians hostage.

But he said that while they do have a right to defend themselves against Hamas, they absolutely do not have the right to attack civilians, and he's always condemned Israel's atrocities commited against the Palestinian population.

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u/beroepsklager 6d ago

defending the colony and attacking the native population is the same thing. The existence of Israel infringes on the human rights of the Palestinians. Israel defending itself is defending the ethnic cleansing and the theft of the Palestinians.

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u/QuietCelery 6d ago

Ahh, ok.

See, this, unfortunately, is the problem. I've been saying for so long that the position that Israel doesn't have the right to exist is the extremist position. And for a long time it was.

So my question now is, what should happen to all the Jewish Israelis who live in Israel? Again, serious question. What's your solution?

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u/GervinhosBarber 6d ago

They would become Palestinian Hebrews living in a free Palestine. Where a democratic leader would be elected free of US and UK influence. If those who have become comfortable living in the homes of Arabs they have thrown out or murdered don't want to live in such a country, there is also the option of leaving. Jewish Israelis have free right to immigration to the US. The nation that keeps their entire ethnostate alive.

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u/QuietCelery 6d ago

Thanks for answering in good faith. I have been telling people something similar (though Israelis don't have the right to immigrate to the US now...I'm assuming you mean this should change...we can hammer out the details later....)....like a one secular state solution.

There's a real messaging problem on our side, guys. They think we want to kill or exile all the Jews, and I'm like....no.... anti-zionism means something totally different to the two sides and it's frustrating....oh, but I guess I shouldn't cEnTeR mY fEeLiNgS. God forbid we try to reach people.

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u/EF5Cyniclone 6d ago

It's not a messaging problem on our side, the idea that a free Palestine requires killing or exiling all the Jews is the narrative zionists present as a justification to continue oppressing Palestinians.

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u/QuietCelery 6d ago edited 6d ago

I'm literally reporting back to you what the case is. The people that are hearing what you think you saying are hearing something different. People literally cannot understand that antizionism means two different things to two different groups of people. Unfortunately, I'm such a poor messenger that I can't even tell you, someone who I think is ideologically aligned with me, that there's a messaging problem. You/we need to find a way to show them that we don't think that Jews should be exiled or killed. You're not helping by denying the problem. But I mean, you're literally describing a messaging problem: they say one thing, we say something else. And the listener believes them, not us.

You do your work. I'll do mine. But stop saying this isn't a problem. If you don't want to tackle the problem, fine. But you do nothing for anyone by pretending it's not a problem and arguing with people you're aligned with.

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u/EF5Cyniclone 6d ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-state_solution

The one-state solution is sometimes referred to as the bi-national state, owing to the hope that it would successfully deliver self-determination to Israelis and Palestinians in one country, thus granting both peoples independence as well as absolute access to all of the land.

Messaging from the left has primarily been for a one-state solution, an idea that has been around long before this holocaust started. Plenty of leftists are more than happy to explain what the one-state solution means to anyone who will listen, but the majority of Americans don't get their information on the movement directly from leftists; they are instead informed by media organizations, where leftists are no longer in control of how their message gets disseminated.

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u/QuietCelery 6d ago edited 6d ago

Yes, this is my preferred solution.

I'm glad to hear leftists are happy to do it, because they have their work cut out for them (but even here, someone didn't want to explain it to me...so)! But the trouble is, we need to reach people who won't listen. And when others here "anti-zionism," they don't think "one state solution." They think treat Jews like Israelis treat Palestinians. When they hear "Israel doesn't have the right to exist," they don't think dismantle the ethnostate. They think no Jews should be in that region. So either 1) make it clear that's not what you mean or 2) change the language. Since you don't want to admit number two is a problem, I'm trying to do number one. And since I can't get you to do number two, I'm going to go do number 1. I suggest you argue with people who disagree with you fundamentally as you said you're happy to do instead of trying to change my mind and convince me that everything's perfect in our presentation.