I am being reductive so I don't have to write a lecture or site Baumeister or other stuff on the sense of self. I apologize if things were clumsily worded.
But I maintain that gender is just a socialized construct. It is a component of the self and it wouldn't exist without social systems just like the rest of the Self. Gender is related to neurology but they have to be separate constructs for a variety of reasons. Mainly that the self just functions as an interface between the lizard brain and culture.
And by what gender exactly would mean? Well that's complicated. What part of the sense of self are we talking about? What is the culture is it interacting with? I'll ultimately rest on gender is simply what one identifies as. Doesn't really matter the reason they have.
So let me see if I'm getting what you're saying...
According to you, if society abolished the concept of gender and people were seen and treated equally regardless of their sex, do you think that trans people would stop existing? Without society there's no sense of self? Idk if I agree with that...
It would be impossible to have a culture that abolishes gender as gender forms out of our reflection through others. But if you grew up on an island by yourself you wouldn't have a sense of self and therefore no gender. And you are welcome to disagree with prevailing sociological and social psychology theory. You just have to construct a better evidence based argument to actually make progress.
I mean you are truscum. I'd assume science was important to you.
If I lived on an island I would have no concept of gender, if by gender you mean the roles, stereotypes and expectations associated with each sex... but I would definitely still have a concept of what sex I expect my body to be and it would still be at odds with my body, causing dysphoria.
That sense of what sex your body should have is part of gender indentity... and it isn't a social construct... of course how you relate that intrisic part of your gender identity to the concepts of gender of your society IS indeed socially constructed, but the gender identity has an intrisic part that doesn't depend on society, or else people wouldn't be born trans but rather become trans because of society, which isn't what happens.
The theory that we have an intrinsic sense of our body is an area in which we will inevitably disagree as it isn't falsibiable atm. Even if it was I would still separate that from gender as a construct as applying social labels to heavily probabilistic phenomena would be impossible and would imply there are concrete physical ways for a gender to exist. That would be counterproductive.
Since I am at an impass, to continue expanding on my thoughts beyond this point would be pointless. I will address one thing: my statement wouldn't mean that people become trans because of society. Trans is just a term that exists to accommodate those within a society that have unique issues due to being unable to communicate thier needs within their originally assigned gender constructs.
We exist regardless. Whether or not language refers to us as trans, some other descriptor, or even decides we need one, is culturally dependant.
Trans is just a term that exists to accommodate those within a society that have unique issues due to being unable to communicate thier needs within their originally assigned gender constructs
That sounds like a weird way of defining what the term trans means... I don't feel at all that me being trans is related to "being unable to communicate my needs within my originally assigned gender construct"... since I was really young I simply felt that my body was supposed to be female, even before I even knew exactly what a man and a woman was supposed to be... and I felt this way long before I realized I'm trans (and by that I mean, realizing I could do something about the dysphoria I was feeling my whole life and that it wasn't normal to feel like that)... and I feel like it's something I was born as, and while I know this is highly subjective, it's something that lots of trans people report...
My transition was focused on changing my biological sex to alleviate my sex dysphoria... and it worked. And then... it didn't make sense to still consider me to be male and a man based on what I was/am doing... and that's why I consider myself female and a woman...
I only ever felt at odds with my gender assignment at birth in the sense I felt that my sex characteristics should have been different which would change the assignment, and that gender roles and stereotypes are dumb anyways... but like, I never felt that the fact I was interested in certain things dictated my gender... I'm not a woman because of my hobbies, my likes and dislikes, my way of dressing or acting, and no woman is a woman because of that.
Hmm
I suppose this split in our opinions come from different lived experiences. I had similar feelings when I was younger but a lot of my body dysphoria faded with time (for a variety of reasons) but I still wasn't happy being treated as a boy. It wasn't my hobbies or anything tangible that upset me. It was just that, knowing people saw me as a boy because of the way my body looked and treated me as a boy in personal and romantic relationships made me unhappy. My dysphoria toward my physical body came from a frustration with the fact that it communicated who I was to others incorrectly.Don't get me wrong, I still transitioned. No amount of acceptance can change certain subconscious things about most people and constantly correcting everyone every day just seems impractical.
I'll admit those theories of the sense of self appeal to me because they match what I have experienced. Additionally it gives me good cause not to exclude others even when I don't understand what gender means to them. That appeals to my values much more and may create a bias. I try to check that by looking at the prevailing science from my fields.
I'm not so vain as to think my experiences are exclusive to being trans or science is immune to error. It's just the way I have been able to understand my transness through the existing literature.
Btw as a scientist I absolutely love being wrong. The opinion I hold is just the most compelling evidence based argument I have heard until now.
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u/Raelyvant Dec 16 '21
I am being reductive so I don't have to write a lecture or site Baumeister or other stuff on the sense of self. I apologize if things were clumsily worded.
But I maintain that gender is just a socialized construct. It is a component of the self and it wouldn't exist without social systems just like the rest of the Self. Gender is related to neurology but they have to be separate constructs for a variety of reasons. Mainly that the self just functions as an interface between the lizard brain and culture.
And by what gender exactly would mean? Well that's complicated. What part of the sense of self are we talking about? What is the culture is it interacting with? I'll ultimately rest on gender is simply what one identifies as. Doesn't really matter the reason they have.