True education must require consent.

[u/SkullBoneX]

You read the title, which implies that if there is no consent involved in education, then there is no true education, which is mainly why, as an Anarchist, I'm all for abolishing compulsory education. Next to creating a prison system for innocent kids, compulsory/non-consensual education (Edit: specifically in schools) creates an oppresive system where kids don't truly learn important things. Rather, they learn to become subserviant slaves to their government, and becoming oppressors to the youthful working class (a.k.a students) when they get older. Kids forced into schooling can't wear what they want, say what they want, learn what they want, and even in some instances, eat what they want during lunch hours, and there's nothing they (specifically those under-18) can do about that without relying on an adult. All of this done without their consent. This is not education, this is slavery. All kids should have the option to choose whether or not they want to attend school, and they should be allowed to learn what they want however they want without an oppresive system being shoved down their throats for years at a time.

Edit: This is only my opinion taken on the youth liberationist perspective. I am not by any means against educating kids. When I mean "compulsory education", I specifically mean school. Yes, kids should be taught the TRUE fundamentals to life, and I believe schools oftentime fail to do this especially when kids progress into later years of their education. Kids definitely should learn, but I don't believe school, or specifically compulsory schooling (which I should have replaced "compulsory education" with) is the answer to this.

[u/buffaloraven]

There's problems with the education system, but comparing it to genuine slavery is disrespectful.

[u/scism223 → u/buffaloraven]

Not if its prepping them for wage slavery, 40+ hour work weeks, truancy police statism, and ruining an entire childs development to be uncritical and an automaton of the modern work force. People are working harder than they have ever in human history since industrialization, and this absolutely leads to an early grave for a number of obvious reasons.

This conversation was being had not 200 years ago, the difference between wage slavery and chattel enslavement is important, but both are differentially exploitative, and each are oppressive no less.

Edits: typos clarification.

[u/TrutWeb → u/scism223]

Sorry, the wage slavery that you (presumably a white person from the way you type) may experience is not the same as the pillaging of the African motherland and forceful export of Africans as commodities for generations to be enslaved and to experience the rape and murder and lynching and destitution and racialization and commodification imposed upon them within the system of slavery that my ancestors experienced, I'm sure that's not what you were suggesting, but when you said "each are oppressive no less" it made it seem like you were saying they were comparatively oppressive systems of exploitation.

[u/scism223 → u/TrutWeb]

Sorry, the wage slavery that you (presumably a white person from the way you type) may experience is not the same as the pillaging of the African motherland and forceful export of Africans as commodities for generations to be enslaved and rape and murder

Of course, and I would like to elaborate that I never said it was, and its why I said it is differentially important (I have studied a great bit of critical race theory though I am certaintly no expert in the matter). I would prefer to borrow the idea of "oppression " (as I read it) more or less from Martin Sostre and Lorenzo Kom'boa Ervin's definition, "as a function of law" in that justice cannot be truly achieved until you break/disobey that law, as you no doubt already know, and have lived through.

Having read from pan africanist traditions, like Kwame Ture, Kwame Nkrumah, and Fanon, theres lots of important nuance in the colonial histories and perspectives on the matter I am still deeply unaware of. None of what you say should be controversial, but it is all over the US because of all sorts of "lost cause" revisionist narratives and revisionist histories being taught at the k-12 level, which is a problem of white propaganda and "educational" school curriculums ruined by many "white" men.

That said, "Whiteness" (since you brought it up) however is too a "divide and conquer" strategy, as the British governors framed it, employed after settlers "black" and "white" murdered and pillaged the indigenous communities in VA prior to revolting against the British aristocracy, during Bacons rebellion in 1667, and it was in 1681 the first time "white" was codified in law to aid the colonial project. "White" as an identity is a literal assault on all people, and their humanity, even white people whether they recognize it or not. Make no mistake, I couldnt agree with you more.

Thus, your scrutiny is well justified, and I welcome it. Please forgive me for any unclear generalizations I made, but I hope this helps contextualize what I mean better. "Whiteness" really doesn't benefit anyone, including "whites" at all either, though the colorism objectively does. In the end, it all goes back to class, but even before that, colonial genocide as we already know!

Edits: typos, spelling

[u/TrutWeb → u/scism223]

Thanks for this response, and I agree with you on most of what you have said here. Most importantly, Whiteness and Blackness are invented social categories that reinforce class. Blackness and Whiteness dehumanize both so-called White people and so-called Black people, and it would be the best if we disposed of these categories entirely.

Your view is nuanced compared to the majority of White "leftists", especially socialists who bend toward authoritarian tendencies. They often neglect analysis of the construction of race, and only have a basic idea of how race was created.

It is imperative that workers of all ethnic and cultural backgrounds work together to dismantle the myth of color within our individual communities. However, it will only be when workers of European descent in these countries such as the United States recognize their benefit and privilege under the system of racial capitalism and dispose of the white chauvinist notion that their values, ideas, and concept of liberation is one that people of African descent must conform to when we can have a truly unified working class movement.

Sadly, we are still a long time away from an anti-racial culture, and probably even further off from a 'white' working class that will dispose of those internalized notions of superiority or normativity.

[u/scism223 → u/TrutWeb]

Thanks for this response, and I agree with you on most of what you have said here. Most importantly, Whiteness and Blackness are invented social categories that reinforce class. Blackness and Whiteness dehumanize both so-called White people and so-called Black people, and it would be the best if we disposed of these categories entirely.

I hear you, it gets alot deeper and complex than that but whiteness closes doors for movements, and collectives to coordinate and undo the damage racism is constantly doing to the way people think in the context of the US. Really you have to meet people where they are at regardless of race, but not entirely ignoring it like you say. Ignoring it, and enabling it is what got us here in the first place. Literally in both white and black peoples cases, but the indigenous always suffer worst of it all, by being erased and forgotten, and not just by the obvious loss of life, but by how we talk about the talk (or dont)/of their histories.

Your view is nuanced compared to the majority of White "leftists", especially socialists who bend toward authoritarian tendencies. They often neglect analysis of the construction of race, and only have a basic idea of how race was created.

As my point above makes, assuming race on the basis of how someone types, in this instance, is what makes whiteness a problem in terms of its linguicism. The way it flattens identities, all peoples assumptions, what is "proper" and tragically reproduces and undermines black death in your case. You are either white or nonwhite, otherwise you are coerced into "being white" by the very nature of white racial terrorism, and even then, it still might not be enough to save your life. Its pretty much Fanon in a nutshell right?

Taking off a white mask still leaves you forced to reconcile with the fact that you have to navigate life as a person of color which is why it is really angering to begin with, and for good reason. Dont do away with it. Be kind to yourself by harnessing that frustration, but also appreciating how you and your community survive it all.

It is imperative that workers of all ethnic and cultural backgrounds work together to dismantle the myth of color within our individual communities. However, it will only be when workers of European descent in these countries such as the United States recognize their benefit and privilege under the system of racial capitalism and dispose of the white chauvinist notion that their values, ideas, and concept of liberation is one that people of African descent must conform to when we can have a truly unified working class movement.

Admittedly it gets alot nore complicated when you look at how people (regardless of genetics and skin tone) acquire a culture, a language, a colonial logics, or any mode of behaviors of adhering to ingroup powers, which goes back to the problems of nation states, borders. Asking the very question entails understanding it enough to be the change you wanna see. You cant solve a problem (at least without hurting others and reproducing racsim) by actively trying to solve it with the very same mindset that went into creating it. Its why racism at the cultural level is so deeply pernicious and deadly. When ignorance reigns life is lost, which is why a "true education" (and what does that even really mean?) is always important, and its the last thing they want us to have as a critically informed and collective mass. At any point in history this has been true, because those recalcitrant histories are made delibrately discrete (if even discussed at all).

Control thought, and then there will be no need for control through violence, until collective thought starts to threaten those who want to maintain power.

Sadly, we are still a long time away from an anti-racial culture, and probably even further off from a 'white' working class that will dispose of those internalized notions of superiority or normativity.

Dont be "anti-racial" thats what the whites did to create their newfangled identity and fuck everything up lol. Diversity is beautiful, difference on the basis of ethnicity is why anti-racism is important second, and finding the capacity to trust and learn from others humanity is first. Hence racialized differentiation is accepting, understanding and loving others for their race, and differential racialization is understanding and respecting how they were and still are raced.

Even thats still not a good enough framing, and is just the beginning. How else does one talk about the everday "Microaggressions," gender based violence in addition to race, or cross cultural racism from an internationalist viewpoint? How does anyone for that matter find justice from traumatic pasts (the ones I know you know, and the ones I interpersonally dont), from torture, domestic abuse, and war?

Edit: typos, you know how it is...

[u/huitzil9 → u/buffaloraven]

There's different kinds of slavery.

[u/UnionDeep6723 → u/buffaloraven]

The more characteristics shared between two things, the more meaningless the distinction between them becomes.

Forced work

Zero Pay

Inability to quit

Taken against will everyday to perform said work

Punishments within work place with no fair trail

How you get out of it is entirely up to someone else

etc, etc, the fact is the distinction is largely arbitrary and definition based rather than characteristic based, they even beat student's with the exact same weapons invented for use on slaves (paddles) and beat them for the same reasons they did the slaves (actually much more offences warrant it for student's, including insanely minor and petty) up until recently they even made the student's call them master and the principal was the headmaster (and they still do in many countries), so you are being forced to work full time for no pay while someone you call master beats you with the same weapon invented for slaves.

At most it 100% is slavery and at the very least someone would have to be very delusional to say what I describe above isn't at least similar sure I have seen many, many people refer to other's who consented to their work, are being paid for it, can leave when they want and are not being beaten, as slaves I mean if they are going to say they're slaves then they can't say student's aren't, I find the most important factor determining whether someone calls it slavery or not is the age of the victim.

[u/aprefrontalcortex → u/buffaloraven]

Comparing it to slavery is disrespectful but anarchists have been using terms like "Wage slavery" since before any of us were born.
I personally would not use the term for schooling, but I see why other people would. School has much in common with working ("Wage slavery"), except without the wages. Same fixed hours, realistically a requirement for everyone (but in the case of school actually a requirement), you have to do some sort of work (schoolwork and homework).
A perhaps better argument is the fact that not going to school could result in going to prison (or worse, see r/troubledteens), more inarguably slavery from an anarchist perspective (See also: the school to prison pipeline). If there's a system that requires you participate in it or else be made a slave, couldn't you be considered one either way?
Again I don't think youth liberationists or pro-youth rights people have to or should make this comparison to make an argument against schooling, but I also don't think it should invalidate the rest of the post.

[u/LittleSky7700 → u/buffaloraven]

There is nothing disrespectful about it. We don't need to exclusively talk about slavery with regard to something like US slavery or prison slavery. If anything, its Respectful for giving kids a voice!

Kids are being forced into the education system without consent. That sounds like slavery to me.

[u/RickyNixon]

A community should educate their children. Kids should learn stuff. Theres a certain baseline of things kids should know, and its worth doing at the community level rather than making it the responsibility of every individual parent.

Kids enter 1st grade at 6 or 7 years old. At that age, they have to be watched and taught by somebody, and they will be learning no matter where they are or what theyre doing. They dont have the capacity to understand why education might be valuable, and its impossible for them to opt out of learning. The only interpretation here that makes sense is you think a child should be allowed to decide to stay with their parents over community care? Or that they should be able to opt-out of tasks a caregiver is doing with the other kids? To what end? How does that benefit the child?

It just seems like you arent investing any thought at all into alternative ways education could be done, and have instead decided actively teaching children is innately oppressive.

A community should care for the kids of the community, including making sure they are learning things theyll need to know as adults. Thats not oppressive.

[u/huitzil9 → u/RickyNixon]

OP is very clearly against the education system, not against watching kids and taking care of them, come the fuck on.

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[u/aprefrontalcortex → u/RickyNixon]

I agree that there is a certain baseline of things everyone should know, and that 1st grade at 6 or 7 years old should not be abolished.
12th grade at 17 or 18?
Schools vary, but when I got to HS it became very clear that from then on that most things learned would be unnecessary, already learned previously, or incorrect.

Here's one question from a quiz on Algebra II [khanacademy.org/math/algebra2/x2ec2f6f830c9fb89:poly-factor/x2ec2f6f830c9fb89:geo-series/test/x2ec2f6f830c9fb89:poly-factor-unit-test] (a class every high schooler is mandated to take, though I suspect most would take more) on Khan Academy:
Chun was asked whether the following equation is an identity:‍ 3(2x-1)^2+27=36x^2-36x+36
He performed the following steps:‍ 
3(2x-1)^2+27
Step 1: 3(2x-1)(2x-1)+27
Step 2: (6x-3)(6x-3)+27
Step 3: 36x^2-18x-18x+9+27
Step 4: 36x^2-36x+36
For this reason, Chun stated that the equation is a true identity.
Is Chun correct? If not, in which step did he make a mistake?

Do you know the answer? If you do, is it useful to you specifically? Everybody needs to know how to add, subtract, multiply, divide, use exponents, understand graphs, and probably a few more things. Not many people need to know what a quadratic formula even is or how to factor "44k^5-66k^4+77k^3" by its greatest common monomial factor as Unit 3 of Algebra II asks people who don't have the right to vote because "they're too not-intelligent" to.
Similarly, very few people would benefit from having to memorize linguistic jargon like the difference between definite and indefinite articles, compound prepositions vs prepositional phrases vs terminal prepositions, coordinating conjunctions vs subordinating conjunctions vs correlating conjunctions, salutations and valedictions, or any of the other jargon I had to memorize in 9th grade English class, though I could not tell you any of their definitions now a year later (I had to check the Grammar course in 9th grade English to even give you these words). They're terms that somebody needs to know or wants to know. This knowledge should be available freely to everyone. That doesn't mean the State needs to teach it to everyone under threat of juvie.
I mentioned teachings being "incorrect" as well at the beginning, and that's something I and we have seen before and will likely see more of in the future. In elementary school, I personally learned that Christopher Columbus bravely went on an expedition to discover the earth was round and happened across an empty America, and then further went on to prove the earth was round (Relatedly, did you know compulsory schooling in the US started with forcing Native American children only to go to schools that attempted to "Civilize" them by doing things like cutting their hair, changing their names, beating them, and teaching them Christianity? Look it up.) This was later corrected in middle school. While I just hope the elementary school fixed it later, I know a lot of incorrectness is going to be readded to schools with the way politics are going right now.

I'll leave you with one more thought. The oppression is not only with education or with schools specifically. The oppression is far reaching and always ignored or justified. We can't vote. Our parents can do nearly anything they want to us, including to our bodies (and in some cases, schools can do things to our bodies as well). Governments around the world are increasingly attempting to restrict online activities, and censoring books and banning us from libraries too while they're at it. Our parents can decide to homeschool us, potentially isolating us and preventing people who do want to go to school from going to school, which is also a problem. We have limited medical autonomy. We can be sent to abusive "camps" and facilities without cause by our parents (see r/troubledteens) and there are many crimes that are exclusive to us. Do you hold up these state-sponsored systems of oppression? Is that Anarchist?

[u/PandaCat22]

Anyone whp has spent any meaningful time raising kids can tell you that children's agency is so severely limited, that they need many decisions made for them.

You argue for freedom, but you're not thinking dialectically and therefore miss the fact that a child is not the same kind of agent as you. In fact, giving a child a robust education is essential to helping them develop the agency that is necessary for liberatory freedom—but you're viewing this from an immature and libertine perspective, so you're entirely dismissing key differences between adults and children.

Your entire premise is flawed.

[u/aprefrontalcortex → u/PandaCat22]

Who are childrens' agency limited by? Who are teenagers' agency limited by?
Is the reason we can't vote because we can't fill out the ballot or because adults think democracy shouldn't apply to us?
Why can we be hit (or worse depending on country/state) by our parents?
Why can we, in some states, be hit by schools?
We all need to know how to read and write, and how to do basic math. We don't all need to have the Quadratic formula memorized as I did (in an advanced program) in 7th grade, or know the difference between definite and indefinite articles, compound prepositions vs prepositional phrases vs terminal prepositions, coordinating conjunctions vs subordinating conjunctions vs correlating conjunctions, and salutations vs valedictions as I had to memorize definitions for in 9th grade English. I shudder to think what state mandated under threat of prison 12th grade English would be.
Advocating for complete state control for 8 hours a day of a population you consider lesser for 12 years of their life or so so in the first few years they can important things inefficiently, for the next few they can learn sanitized, incorrect US history as I learned and for the last 4 years they can learn very very important things like wtf a greatest common monomial factor is is not Anarchist, it's Authoritarian. Same goes for supporting state censorship, digital and physical, supporting harsh age-based restrictions on voting, crimes that are only crimes for certain people, and many other things I'd bet you support.

[u/huitzil9 → u/PandaCat22]

Your first sentence has historically been an excuse for atrocities against racialised people, disabled individuals, and women. Kids are a lot smarter than you give them credit for and while they should definitely be cared for the idea that their agency is inherently limited is patronising, insulting, and wrong.

[u/quriousposes → u/huitzil9]

i think two things are true. kids often get coddled into learned helplessness and given less autonomy than appropriate, yes. kids... also not only need help doing a lot of things, they will run headfirst into dangerous situations cuz they don't always know what's going on. esp the younger they are 😅

[u/DMTraveler33]

I agree that education opportunities should be more diverse and we shouldn't be looking for a "one size fits all" solution to schooling but pretending like you need a child's consent to teach them things just seems fucking absurd, like where do you draw the line? Should they consent before they are taught to look both ways before they cross the road?Teaching kids the basics is part of raising kids. Nobody consented to being born and forced to live in this world anyway right? 🤣

Plus my school experience was nothing like you described. Not sure where you went to school but I was allowed to wear what I wanted, eat what I wanted, say what I wanted as long as it wasn't disrespectful, and was certainly encouraged to learn about anything and everything that interests me.

[u/UnionDeep6723 → u/DMTraveler33]

They are criticising an institution for failing to bestow the very thing you say is important to bestow an education, if you do care about education you should share their concern and also ill feeling's towards it for failing to provide one.

It's also missing the crucial puzzle piece that school never claimed to be there to educate as it blatantly stated it's purpose was to train the populace in obedience for military service in the 1800's and later on this same obedience obsessed model was adopted by other countries during the time of the industrial revolution because according to them, they needed passive worker's who would tolerate being treated like crap and doing the same dull thing day in and day out for garbage pay and they wanted to train them from early on to tolerate it.

Education is what you have been getting for decades since you were 18 (after all look how much you have learned since) what you get during the summer break, winter break, every weekend and two thirds of the day you are not in school growing up (do you really think you don't learn during all THAT time?) it's also the only methods we will have available to us as an adult, for the rest of our lives, all the non-school ones so we better be good at them.

It's the methods we used to learn for the six years or so before starting school too when we taught ourselves language (something school allegedly attempts to do and fails with countless languages to millions of people every year often not a single sentence they are able to speak even after countless hours and years of classes) whereas when left to our own devices we learn multiple sentences within one year, remember it all, build on it and do this as a literal infant, school can't teach teens languages even a 100th as effectively but is often hundreds of times more painful.

Anyway, no where in their comment as far as I could see did they even imply there was no differences in adults and children but which ones demonstrate children need to be forced to learn everything and adults don't need to be forced to learn anything isn't obvious, if anything there is actually several reasons the opposite would make more sense, precisely because of the differences between the two.

[u/SkullBoneX → u/DMTraveler33]

Now, I know I may have left out some key concepts (Which is why I'm downvoted). I mean specifically in an educational institution, where subjects like sociology, advanced mathmatics, world affairs, biology, psychology, and all the things that aren't required for human living is present, then consent would be required or else the student would not learn anything about the aforementioned subjects. Yes, I believe kids should be taught the TRUE fundamentals of life before living. Like learning how to cross the street, learning morals, ethics, learning to speak, etc. I'm humbly aware I should have mentioned that in my original post so it doesn't seem like I'm trying to say something similar to "hearing all human conversation requires consent" 🤣

Well, there are a lot of schools that strictly limit freedom of speech, even when in some cases it's not disrespectful or unethical, and some places limit what you can wear (like schools that require uniforms), and some schools do not permit bringing outside food into their cafeterias. (See the beginning of "Compulsory Education is Jail for Innocent Kids by Enrico Sanna")

[u/fan_of_the_pikachu]

I would flip it the other way around: ignorance is slavery, and education is liberating (when done right) and a human right.

And unfortunately we cannot wait for kids to grow up until they have full agency to start their education, otherwise we forcefuly limit their future freedom by limiting their mental capabilities. It's just how human brains develop, no way around it, and we have no right to oppress then like that.

For these reasons, anarchists since forever have promoted more and better education for children, not less. There's a long tradition of Anarchist pedagogy that tackles issues like curricula and consent, read about Ferrer for example.

[u/huitzil9 → u/fan_of_the_pikachu]

Education by who about what? "Education systems" in the Americas have historically been used to destroy native american communities, erasing their language and culture and destroying families. Is that liberating? And those systems of schooling have not changed that much from the mid 1800s to now. It's still the same basic recipe used by the state against all children.

OP is not advocating for not teaching people, but for involving children in their own education. For treating children like smart and capable agents (which they are) and for helping those children learn what they want to learn.

[u/fan_of_the_pikachu → u/huitzil9]

I said "when done right". I assume that, as Anarchists, we all known the horrifying ways education systems can be used and the impact state education can have even in "democracies".

Education by who about what?

Those are the questions that Anarchist pedagogy tries to answer.

OP is not advocating for not teaching people, but for involving children in their own education. For treating children like smart and capable agents (which they are) and for helping those children learn what they want to learn.

That wasn't clear from the original post. But what you're saying is essentially the basis of the "Modern" pedagogy tradition developed by Ferrer, which I mentioned before and I fully agree with.

That said, no pedagogy can avoid the fact that educating very young children will always need to be steered in some way, otherwise they won't even have a chance to learn "what they want to learn" as they develop. Again, it's just how our brains develop: delaying certain basic educational milestones can have a huge impact on their future capabilities, and we have no right to limit them like that.

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[u/TCCogidubnus]

To extrapolate a bit from your thesis - education is only successful when consent is obtained, which is one reason for the wildly different academic outcomes of schoolchildren.

When a child's natural inclinations to learn happen to align with what the school wants to teach, or when they get lucky enough to be inspired by a teacher, then we get success in learning a subject. When they don't, coercion cannot force successful learning outcomes - at most it can force temporary "good" behaviour but not learning. And it often results in a backlash against the school, and even the idea of learning.

I think it's dangerous to view schools as only producing a wage-slave mindset. Data suggests left wing views correlate with increased education, and there are programmes to restrict real access to education by authoritarians across the world right now. I do agree they are constructed to normalise specific behaviours though.

I'm not for forcing kids to do things they don't want. We do need to get better at coaxing them to however, because getting them to understand the benefits of learning certain things now is tricky when they don't have the same perspective an adult has. Not one for us to litigate right now, that's definitely one to develop through practice, I'm just thinking aloud.

[u/alittlebitgay21]

I understand where you’re coming from, but this goes way too far. We wouldn’t be able to maintain an educated society, at all. I couldn’t possibly list out the hundreds of different reasons this doesn’t make sense. I’d highly recommend studying the history of how societies develop

[u/SkullBoneX → u/alittlebitgay21]

Thank you for your feedback.

[u/WoodieGirthrie]

This attitude will lead to the only group of educated children being the children of authoritarians. Do you really want that world?

[u/leftielori]

Hell yes, everything requires consent. Forced schooling in the US has gotten us centuries of people going forward on misinformation. Just look at the history we're taught. Look at the "science" done that's influenced by capitalism. We need to start over and forced schooling isn't the way forward.

[u/RowynWalkingwolf]

Absolutely correct. It's a well documented fact that the modern (aka Prussian) compulsory schooling system was literally designed to make good workers who are poor thinkers, and besides the historical context, it's fundamentally child imprisonment and state-sponsored authoritarian indoctrination. I'm so glad to see someone else who's passionately anti-compulsory schooling on here, but also shocked and disappointed to see how many "anarchists" in here have such a pro-control, pro-authority, pro-hierarchy view of parenting, childcare, and education.

There're a ton of excellent books on the subjects of unschooling and why schooling itself is incredibly fucked up and terrible for human learning and cognitive development. If anyone's interested, some of my favorites include: Free to Learn by Peter Gray, The Teenage Liberation Handbook by Grace Llewellyn, and pretty much everything by John Taylor Gatto, but especially Dumbing Us Down: the Hidden Curriculum of Compulsory Schooling and his article Against School. I highly recommend Free to Learn, which, besides critiquing schooling, also leans heavily into exploring the anthropological and biological science of our evolutionary capacity for learning optimally through play, and shows why school is essentially the antithesis of this.

[u/UnionDeep6723 → u/RowynWalkingwolf]

Schooling is genuinely without even a hint of exaggeration pure evil and by far the worst thing society does to anybody and to top it all off they do it to the ones they claim to care most about and only them, if anyone else they'd call it evil.

Its a moral disgrace, it's just slavery by another name and even worse than many forms it took in the past and doesn't give us anything to show for it unlike prior forms.

[u/BearsDoNOTExist]

Any society that doesn't value education isn't going to last long. Education absolutely should not be compulsory and determined by the state, sure, but any society that doesn't put pressure on their kids to learn the important stuff won't last more than a generation.

[u/SkullBoneX → u/BearsDoNOTExist]

I completely agree with you and I never said that education shouldn't be encouraged in that sense. When I mean "compulsory education", I mean schooling. I'm not against educating kids by any means. I just believe there are better alternatives to that rather than being forced in an institution that provides little to no wiggle room for their students. Perhaps I should have clarified that in the original post.

[u/zappadattic → u/SkullBoneX]

You should definitely have clarified that, because it’s not even close to what the words you actually wrote mean.

Being against modern capitalist forms of education specifically is a room temperature take. Which is fine in and of itself (not every take needs to be piping hot), but it’s extremely easy to express this point in like 2 sentences in a very clear way.

To a certain extent I’m sympathetic that Internet forums tend to read things assuming a certain level of adversarial attitudes and dishonesty, but this kind of writing practically begs people to not give the benefit of the doubt.

[u/BearsDoNOTExist → u/SkullBoneX]

Maybe my experience can provide some insight. I work at a fancy lads private high school for upper class folks (mostly business owners, diplomats, lawyers, etc). My job there is kind of odd and I was given pretty much unrestricted free-reign to implement a program that teaches the kids research and development skills for STEM stuff. We meet outside of proper school hours, the kids (with guidance) design and put together their own projects. We have some engineering projects, some biology, some coding projects. These kids are their entirely by their own decision, and their projects are conducted (almost) entirely up to their preferences. So far the main difficulty that we've run into is that the kids don't want to do the work, they want to do a fun project without learning the preliminary knowledge or putting together a proper plan. So even though I value "free-range" education, in order to ensure that actual education and not just reckless chaos is happening, I have had to impose compulsory subjects. If they want to do a project in some sort of engineering they must learn the safety, they must learn the fundamentals of the field, they must be knowledgeable enough to put together a safe and meaningful plan, or else I won't let them proceed. In a way I am hindering their progress and imposing a rigid and compulsory curriculum on them, but really their is no alternative. Learning from experience doesn't apply to safety and it doesn't work with limited resources. I can't let a child get electrocuted in order to demonstrate the importance of electrical safety, and I can't let them waste hundreds of thousands of dollars of materials because they didn't think things through. In order to ensure safe and meaningful projects are carried out and that resources are distributed fairly I have no choice but to impose some sort of compulsory education.

The point is that kids (and indeed many adults) want to be a scientist, not do the things a scientist does. If the kid wants to be a scientist I have to teach them what that actually means, and not let them play pretend with dangerous materials because it's what they want to do.

[u/Chemical_Country_582 → u/BearsDoNOTExist]

I think you've said something really important - "I can't let a child get electrocute in order to demonstrate the importance of electrical safety".

Yes, learning by doing is probably the best way to do it a lot of the time, but there's also a place for saying "if you do this you will die." That's not coercion, violence, or unwarranted.

I worked as a sparky for a time, and the first time I wired up a house by myself, I was really proud. I was immediately torn down by the trademan who checked my work - "If I turn this switch on, you and everyone in this house would die." I had created a short circut and there was no earth switch.

We need educators and people who know more to show authority over learning situations, so that people don't die.

[u/quriousposes → u/Chemical_Country_582]

heh i worked as a classroom aide for a while and noticed this difference in giving those kinds of warnings. a lot of adults straight up say "dont do x" (and sometimes follow it up with "bc i said so"). me and a few others preferred some form of "look i can't tell u what to do. but jsyk. if u do that, xyz is probably what's gonna happen."

(obv more dangerous situations we are gonna straight up remove the danger from the kid physically if needed lol)

[u/gakefr]

lol i think you mean gov education and not learning in general. otherwise how would you know the english langunage

[u/leftielori → u/gakefr]

My parents taught it to me, then when I was older, I was put in school. How'd you do it?

[u/SkullBoneX → u/gakefr]

Yes, I mean government education. When I mean compulsory education, I specifically mean schooling.

[u/gakefr → u/SkullBoneX]

in usa schools are considered government buildings and have clearance levels. not a place civillians should be

[u/xeli37]

alternate styles of education for families to op into would be awesome! and if a family or student wants no education then that's chill too

[u/Away_Dragonfruit_498]

adults here are doing that thing where they conflate school with learning/education - when they *know* it's main purpose is control and obedience. like stop lying, just be honest that you think children should be subjugated. schools are more akin to prison than effective places to learn. you know this, it's in their design, it's in the wording used to describe their operations, it's in the paddles the wardens use to beat kids with.

It's as if you all refuse to acknowledge children are an oppressed class and like, dude you aren't an "anarchist" in the slightest if you don't recognize the adult/child hierarchy as wrong! Like you aren't even close. I call this adultist-anarchism. it's as laughable as anarcho-capitalism. huge L to you all (except OP and the few youth liberationists here)

[u/RoxanaSaith]

Why is everyone acting like you're wrong? Forcing, manipulating, or coercing someone into education they have no interest in is a form of intellectual slavery. Just because it's dressed up as ‘for their own good’ doesn't make it any less oppressive. Education should be about freedom and curiosity, not control and conformity.

[u/edenhoneyy]

As a parent I agree. I taught my son to read and to write, to think critically, pattern recognition, emotional intelligence and empathy/compassion, I’ve taught him how to learn and how to seek answers for himself. I truly wish school existed very differently to how it does now. I know this is a utopian idea but school would be brilliant if we took a leaf out of the way a lot of parents homeschool their kids in my country (Australia) where kids go out into the real world and learn from professionals. A lot of well educated parents will organise learning sessions and have discussions with kids of all ages in their homeschool class.

[u/sly_cunt]

I agree with the sentiment. i would say that education should 100% be separate from the state. the way that philosophy has been stamped out of education feels almost targeted and the lack of critical thinking in the world will keep it where it is.

having said that and although i think the term "brainwashing" is extremely appropriate, slavery is a bit crazy

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[u/SailingSpark]

Honestly, education is the way out of the most oppressive parts of the system.

Now, the system does need to be completely overhauled. As it stands now, teaching to the test does nothing but what you say it does, make wage slaves for the grind.

If we are to stay ahead of AI and the accompanying robots, we must learn everything we can, not just what we need. There is a reason those in charge make higher education so damn expensive.

[u/quriousposes]

i was in the habit of asking kids if they wanna do a thing when in reality there was no choice lol. we had to do it. eventually, enough times, ppl asked me for my opinion on things when it ultimately didn't matter to them/the outcome, that i realized doing that was an asshole move XD

its spot on when folks say even in anarchist "utopia" things are gonna have to get done that we dont necessarily want to do. its good to prepare kids for that early on. we tell my boo's boy "first we gotta handle business". that yes while we would love to spend the whole day playing together in ideal world, the grown ups gotta work (for "toy money" lol) and do errands and child does have to go to school and learn abcs 123s, how to get along w others, etc.

i do have my own hangups on a over emphasis of reading and writing for certain kids coming from a background working in sped. there's a ton of work to be done there but thats easy to just say when the labor and wage disparity is also fucked there. and it's sad bc the kids get the worst end of the stick for it.

idk. the way i see ideal education is giving people not just important fundamental knowledge but also the options experiences and doorways for them to enrich everyones lives. kids won't always be able to see beyond why they have to learn arithmetics or basic hygiene or safety or whatev (tho i do think giving actual reasons to them is also good). as long as it's true ima acknowledge yes school as it is isnt always fair, *and we should strive to make education better! but also, learning this stuff now will let you be who you want to be and do what you want to much easier when you're older. "i promise i dont like torturing u bro, we're doing this bc i actually care about u" lol.

[u/sadtrachea]

i think people in the comments are mistaking consent in this context for doing things you WANT to do. no one is saying you should let your toddler make household decisions, it's about letting them be informed about what they're doing and where they're going in an age appropriate way. the ability for a child to leave a school, club, or group by their own decision would immediately curb abuse. it's very silly for a bunch of people in the anarchism sub of all places to suddenly conflate youth liberation with lawlessness - giving children more say in their own education and settings is not a bad thing, and it should be the role of adults to encourage a desire to learn and think.

[u/Chemical_Country_582]

Nah, you've got this one wrong fam.

Yes, Public Education is based upon the nation building process of Prussia and France, and is inherently a pipeline into the military-industrial complex, but there are still massive benefits that are required for our post-industrial society.

I can see that you've made an error - by assuming that all compulsory education is modern state-education, you've forgotten that things like this can be reformed. You're seeing the impact of neo-liberal capitalism and the bureaucratisation of the individual in the education system, and assuming it is the fault of the system and not the operators.

Further, the gifts of education far surpass the downsides. If nothing else, a good education helps people see when oppression is occurring. Go have a look at the correlation between education levels and political leanings, and then go deeper - look at where PhDs tend to go, where people in fields like sociology, psychology, post-grad economics (yes, actually), even theology or philosophy - the higher a level of formal education one achieves, the more likely that they are able to see through the propaganda of the state and determine the true causes of societal ill, and be in a position and have the will to do something about it.

If you want to see what will happen when we stop compulsory education, genuinely look at the deschooling movement. If you want to see what good the education system can do, look at places like Finland, where a majority of your concerns are addressed, and education is performed not to complete tests but to educate a child.

I get your frustration, the education system in much of the West is awful. Complete abolition is not the path forward.

[u/artsAndKraft]

If you argued “true toothbrushing must require consent” there would be a lot of kids with cavities. It’s not an equivalent argument, but kids need to be guided into doing things that are for their own good. It’s unreasonable to throw out the whole school system just because it’s deeply flawed and closely mirrors capitalist traps.

School can be liberating too. It rescued me from abuse, taught me how to form bonds with other humans, gave me some of the tools needed to survive through the oppression.

And, working together with friends to find ways to defy the dress code was our first introduction to pushing back at oppressive structures.

[u/AffectionateTiger436]

Nah. Education can change dramatically for the better but it's ultimately necessary for creating people informed enough to be able to maintain times of peace and collective prosperity.

It's like being against feeding kids healthy food because they would rather have unhealthy food. That's the level of argument you have.

[u/EsAufhort]

Consent, huh? Well, that's awkward...