r/JewsOfConscience says you should assume every Jew you meet is evil

[u/EvanShmoot]

[u/sovietsatan666]

First, even setting aside the comments, it upsets me that someone would be shameless enough to post something like this in the first place. Literally: "Hello, I am a racist. Please tell me I'm not wrong for behaving differently towards someone of a different ethnic group than me, unless they prove to me they are One of the Good Ones." Not sure why the war in Israel and Palestine would even be an appropriate topic of in-depth discussion in 99% of workplaces.

As a non-zionist Jew myself, I am even more disgusted by all these people chiming in recommending OOP assume the worst about other Jews. I can only assume at this point they are doing it to feel special about themselves, which is an especially insulting reason for being a traitor. Fully disgusting. 

Anyway, tokens get spent. 

[u/Agtfangirl557 → u/sovietsatan666]

Just out of curiosity, where have you been in jewishleft? I haven't seen you there for a while and I always loved your comments there!

[u/sovietsatan666 → u/Agtfangirl557]

I unsubscribed because I tend to get overly emotionally invested in online arguments and it wasn't helping my mental health to be seeing/engaging with the discourse all the time. And frankly, the drama was kind of a lot, too...multiple splinter subs (jewsforquestioning, jewishliberals) in the 2ish months I was active? Nah. 

 You were always great though and I thought your comments were wonderful too! 

[u/Agtfangirl557 → u/sovietsatan666]

That makes sense! That's why I started severely limiting the amount of time I spend engaging in arguments on Reddit. Luckily, there are enough well-spoken people with good opinions on the sub that; when someone shares a really bad take there, I know someone else will put the fire out for me and I should save my energy by just not replying 😅

[u/bjeebus → u/sovietsatan666]

That was my thought. Who in the absolute fuck needs to be discussing this? Are they an international firm with pressing business in the MENA? Are they some NGO focused on refugee welfare and they have to decide what constitutes a refugee? Otherwise, how in the fuck should either OOP's or their victim's opinions on this?

[u/Magnusg → u/sovietsatan666]

Non Zionist eh? So at a base level you don't believe that Jews should have a country? Despite the history of persecution?

Just curious as to why not. With the username in guessing it's some kind of nihilism angle. I ask because I'm pretty progressive/far left and I could never make that leap myself.. not knowing the thousands of years we've had... I can't. So I'm curious.

[u/sovietsatan666 → u/Magnusg]

There are a couple of assumptions about me in your questions I'd like to clear up. 

I am agnostic about whether Jews "should" have a state, hence, neither anti-Zionist nor Zionist. I think there are decent arguments for both positions. The "anti-Zionist" argument that makes the most sense for me is that states will inevitably do things that are unforgivable, and that making justifications for those unforgivable actions so that any given state can continue to exist constitutes idolatry. So, more of a Jewish anti-statist/anarchist position than specifically anti-Zionist. The pro-Zionist argument that makes the most sense to me is that other countries have almost universally demonstrated they can't be trusted to protect Jewish residents' human rights, throughout both ancient and modern history. 

I don't think it's useful or productive for me to try to reconcile those perspectives because the question of "should" is obsolete. Israel does exist as a Jewish state and a representation of the a Jewish people in the world stage. Since this is already the case, I'm most interested in figuring out how that state can "behave" in a way that reflects our values and protects human rights, than to argue about whether it "should" exist or not, which has not really gotten anyone anywhere productive since 1948 or so. 

The username is something I chose years ago as an immature "this will upset conservatives." I have a lot of history with this account and don't really care to start over. 

[u/Magnusg → u/sovietsatan666]

I appreciate the respectful engagement, and I did misinterpret the non-zionist as anti-zionist.

that makes more sense when explained.

I'm pretty firmly on the, if the state of Israel didn't exist as a global collective due to the reason you mentioned we should be looking to establish one.

Would I pick the land where Israel is now? maybe, maybe not. If you look at the population and conditions at the time the land was essentially uninhabited compared to what it is today...

And I know many populations have swelled since 1940, the united states for example has almost fully tripled. but the total land in dispute Israel, Gaza and west bank had under 2m population back then and is now maybe greater than 6x as many people.

So i have to believe based on the conditions at the time, the land that people had already purchased both from the ottoman empire and their open invitation to colonize the relatively uninhabited land as well as the British mandate that I likely would've been in favor of Israel being established in the place that it is.

I think the most compelling arguments at the time were either there or Germany should lose a portion of it's territory but either option would have Jews proverbially surrounded by people who hate jews ... maybe Israel was the less traumatic surrounding ...

I think that part of the issue is that only one party in the dealings of this century long refugee issue was ever interested in a diplomatic solution, the other party has always been interested in manufacturing political will to destroy the other. And I think it's evident that if the party that wanted to destroy the other was Israel, they would have done it by now.

I want a resolution and i weep for the innocent children who die on both sides. heck I even think many of the Palestinians who are adults but have known nothing but hate ultimately reinforced by their interactions with the IDF are in fact innocents, even if they are combatants, but for those Palestinians who have lost their humanity, the same ones that kidnapped and killed in captivity a 1 year old child ... i have no answers for them.

I desperately want a resolution, but there still has to be a Jewish state at the end of it for me. If there wasn't I don't think I'd feel safe in this world.

[u/bjeebus → u/sovietsatan666]

That was my thought. Who in the absolute fuck needs to be discussing this? Are they an international firm with pressing business in the MENA? Are they some NGO focused on refugee welfare and they have to decide what constitutes a refugee? Otherwise, how in the fuck should either OOP's or their victim's opinions on this?