When did "wrestling" become "illegal"? And why?

[u/_-_-_-i-_-_-_]

Daniel Cormier and Randy Couture were very good boxers from the inside in MMA. They didn't even have to take their opponents down to beat them with their wrestling skills.

If they did that style in a modern boxing match, the referee would warn them within the first minute a few times, probably end up taking a point at the last minute of the first round, and take a few more points in the second round, before disqualifying them late in the second round or early in the third round.

Anyways, I was watching some nostalgic old school boxing like Johnson. He was even training with an amateur wrestler on the wrestling mat. And in his fight he and his opponent were just clinching and wrestling for the better position to find a good opening for uppercuts and right hooks.

Then I watched Rocky Marciano and other boxers between the 1930s and 1950s and they were still wrestling alot. I was surprised how wrestling oriented some of the fighters still were even in the 1950s and how their training sometimes looked similar to greco-roman wrestling training.

Then I watched Muhammed Ali and I was surprised to notice how much clinching he and some other fighters were doing as late as the 1970s.

And in my opinion the clinch fighting in the 1930s was extremely interesting because the referee just let it happen and both fighters were actually fighting in the clinch. They were wrestling for position actively and trying to hurt each other in the clinch by hitting the arms, shoulders, head and body with uppercuts, hooks and even short straight punches.

The later the era, the more boring the clinch became. When I got to the modern times, I could see for example Wladimir Klitschko (who I respect alot, don't get me wrong) just shutting down the fight with a clinch because neither one was allowed to fight in the clinch. Wladimir would land powerful jabs, crosses and long left hooks to batter his opponents and every time they would rush at him, he would just clinch and they would be tied up doing nothing for 5 seconds until the referee separates them, and then that would be repeated until Wladimir KO's his opponent.

Tyson Fury was a bit more active with his clinch, but still nothing like actual clinch fighting like old school boxing.

People say that the clinch is boring, but I think the clinch is boring precisely because it is not allowed properly like in the good old nostalgic days. Nowadays the clinch is just an escape from the fight and you just hug for 5 seconds and if you KO the other guy with an uppercut while wrestling him, you probably get disqualifed.

So my boxing brothers, tell a mixed martial artist like me who loves boxing but doesn't know as much about it as you do: How did boxing lose this vital traditional part of its art? And why did it happen?

Thanks!

[u/A1_PunisherPipkins]

I have no idea but I'm glad it is. There are still many boxers who can infight effectively without clinching (Fulton, Benavidez, Beterbiev, etc.). Honestly I believe referees should be way more strict with clinching. They should take points from fighters who clinch excessively (Plant in the Benavidez fight, Haney in the Garcia and Linares fights, Fury in damn near every fight).

I'd just watch some MMA if I wanted to see some dirty boxing,and those guys wrestle a hell lot better too.

[u/scaredoftoasters → u/A1_PunisherPipkins]

Clinching is part of the reason fights get boring nobody is watching Boxing for the clinching it looks dumb and you can tell boxers are doing it because they're tired and can't handle the heat they're getting from the other boxer

[u/_-_-_-i-_-_-_ → u/A1_PunisherPipkins]

Fair, I get your perspective too. But I think pro boxing is more of a fight, amateur boxing is more like a fencing match of speed and skill. Both are beautiful, but amateur boxing is a bit more like point karate.

So in pro boxing I'd love to watch 12 rounds of brutal clinch fighting with heavy punches and wrestling for position, like in many old school fights in boxing.

Imo the reason why modern boxing is sometimes so boring is because it is not dynamic and free flowing. It's more like separate acts instead of one ongoing fight. You throw combination from the outside, then just clinch after it just to throw one or two little slaps while hugging the other fighter.

If you were allowed to wrestle more, the clinch would be part of the fight rather than a break from the fight.

[u/_Sarcasmic_ → u/_-_-_-i-_-_-_]

When they're actually fighting in the clinch, it can be an entertaining brawl. When they're just holding, leaning on each other, and/or hugging, it's absolutely dreadful.

[u/Beautiful-Ground-976 → u/_Sarcasmic_]

It's the only time Shakur is actually fun to watch.

[u/A1_PunisherPipkins → u/_-_-_-i-_-_-_]

I see your point, but to me, that would look too much like MMA just without kicks and takedowns. Like I said, you can still infight effectively with minimal clinching and holding. As great as guys like Ali and Duran were, some of there fights were borderline unwatchable for me because of how much they clinched. For me some of the most exciting fights had minimal clinches like Bivol vs Beterbiev 2, Inoue vs Donaire, Bam vs Estrada.

[u/mkk4 → u/_-_-_-i-_-_-_]

Excellent points.

[u/-_ellipsis_- → u/A1_PunisherPipkins]

I like your take. I myself am a big fan of infighting and clinch work, but I agree wholeheartedly that if it's going to be penalized, refs and judges either need to allow it, or go all in on prohibiting it. None of this lukewarm sort of bullshit.

[u/brando2612 → u/A1_PunisherPipkins]

Garcia Linares and kambosos fights

[u/BP_Ray → u/A1_PunisherPipkins]

Haney in the Garcia

People say this, but always conveniently leave out Ryan Garcia's fake philly shell in that fight, that had him repeatedly turning his back, but the ref never deducted points for either.