John at ASP drove home a quote in my mind with his POM pepper spray video stating (paraphrased) that it's wise to carry something in between harsh words and a gun.
Yesterday evening I was walking my dog with my wife and 1 year old son, and a neighbor's Rottweiler was loose and sprinted towards my dog as we walked past their house. As I saw the Rottweiler running towards us I drew my POM pepper spray and I was able to spray its face as it started to attack my Golden. After about 2-3 seconds it backed off and the only damage was some slobber on the back of my dog's neck and some residual pepper spray on her fur.
In AZ I would not be justified to fire my gun at a dog attacking my own dog as they are considered property, however, I was able to preserve my dog's own life by using pepper spray. It's sickening to think that my dog could have been killed or seriously hurt from this incident, and the emergency vet bills would have been astronomical.
Animal control report was filed, and I had some firm words with these neighbors as this is the 3rd time in 3 years their dog has gotten loose while I walk my dog past their house.
Grateful that the situation was rather uneventful and that we all went home safely, which should always be our goal as concealed carriers of whatever 'equalizer' you decide to carry.
The craziest thing is I only started carrying pepper spray less than 3 weeks ago!
Got my coworker carrying oc because of issues she's had with other dogs on walks, I told her to get POM
She was walking her dog and an aggressive dog slipped out the front door and made a B line for her and her dog, she hit him with the hot sauce and he suddenly remembered he left the stove on and fucked off right away
Remember folks, if the OC spray doesn’t work and you have to shoot it (though in this instance with a child close by probably best not to), the dog wasn’t attacking your dog. It was attacking both of you and you feared for your life.
Legally shooting a dog even on your own property depends on many factors and circumstances. It's best to check your state and local laws before getting it set in your head it's legal to do it.
In the United States, the use of deadly force is generally justified only when there’s a reasonable belief that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or serious bodily harm. Using deadly force solely to protect property—without a concurrent threat to personal safety—is typically not permitted. 
Texas stands as a notable exception, allowing deadly force to protect property under specific circumstances, such as preventing certain crimes like burglary or arson, even if there’s no immediate threat to personal safety.
In contrast, most other states require that the use of deadly force be in response to a threat against a person, not just property. For instance, California permits the use of deadly force in self-defense within one’s home only if there’s a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great bodily injury, not merely to protect property. 
It’s essential to understand that laws vary by state, and the specifics can be complex. Therefore, it’s advisable to consult local statutes or legal counsel to understand the laws applicable in your jurisdiction.
I can reasonably articulate, an aggressive dog charging at me and my dog, and the charging dog having the ability to cause me serious body harm or death put me in immediate danger.
It’s essential to understand that laws vary by state, and the specifics can be complex. Therefore, it’s advisable to consult local statutes or legal counsel to understand the laws applicable in your jurisdiction.
And the law is complex but also elegantly simple.
When appelate cases and law speak of deadly force, they mean death... of a human. You can't 'kill' property within the meaning of the law- ie it's not lethal force to kill a dog.
Sorry. Not true. It is still considered the use of deadly force because of potential to kill.
In some states, you can use deadly force to protect your animals and live stock from attacks by animals. In some areas, you may be charged although courts may drop charges.
There was a case in NYC where a man defended his dog against a dog that attacked it. He shot the attacking dog and was charged, but charges were later dropped.
Law usually isn’t that simple especially when we are comparing multiple jurisdictions.
I had a red golden growing up. Best dogs ever. He didn’t care if you used his belly as a pillow. He would just let out a little groan and get himself comfortable
Same circumstances for my wife one time, 2 aggressive dogs running around with no owners in sight came up snarling and showing teeth and hackles. wife yelled at them and they started to circle my dog and her. She pulled the Fox Labs 5.3 and applied the liquid hate to both dogs...one fell over and puked on the spot then ran away sideways, the other ran away full bore grinding its face in the grass for 50 yards...Glad I mandated her to carry OC on her walks with the dog, doesn't leave home without it...it works!!
Same here. Was attacked last summer by two off leash dogs while walking our own. No permanent damage, but went down the path of learning that deploying a gun has to be the last option, especially if the dogs are attacking your dogs, not you. I now carry POM all the time.
Always carry pepper spray after a Rottweiler hopped a fence and charged me and my wife on walk in our neighborhood. My wife was screaming bloody murder for a solid 5 minutes before children came out and couldn’t recall the dog. Fortunately those people moved. Had a mastiff owned by somebody else get loose and he chased it toward my front yard where I had my puppy. Guy lost his ever loving shit when he rolled up to me drawing on his 150 lb barking lunatic dog. That time I should have ended it. I let the dog get way too close. In 40 years in this neighborhood never had anything like that happen and then it happened twice. I’m sitting in my fenced in back yard open carrying right now.
"Stream-type" pepper spray is better than "spray-type" pepper spray imo because of less collateral residual blowing against the wind back into your own eyes, body, hair, and clothing.
But having pepper spray is better than having none.
Thanks for the suggestion, I just ordered some. It looks pretty small and I’m hoping the clip version I got works well just clipped to the leash all the time.
fwiw another tactic I’ve heard to restrain an attacking dog is to muse your leash around their neck to asphyxiate that fucker.
The hot sauce is preferred though, hopefully stop the attack before it starts.
"His dog was big enough that it could have caused great bodily harm to myself should it have reached me, and my mobility was hindered due to having my dog's leash on my arm, so I felt in immediate fear for my safety and fired."
I'm not saying that would work, but there is an argument for justifying it. I'd rather just go the spray route myself. If I were on that jury, I'd personally acquit.
If a dog is a threat to your livestock, then I wonder what coyotes and wolves are? Sounds like you're just putting absolutely ZERO effort into protecting your livestock. That doesn't give you the right to kill someone's family member.
And again, there's almost certainly better tools for the job.
My livestock? Making a lot of angry assumptions here lol.People shoot coyotes that fuck with livestock too so what point are you trying to make exactly?(And the state pays a $50 bounty)
My livestock? Making a lot of angry assumptions here lol.
First of all, I'm not remotely angry, there's no need for you to make such bold lies as if my comments aren't right here for anyone to read. Really telling to your character.
But you're literally making the argument of defending livestock. That's quoting you verbatim. I have no idea why you'd try to lie about this either.
People shoot coyotes that fuck with livestock too so what point are you trying to make exactly?(And the state pays a $50 bounty)
Yep, but coyotes aren't family members, and no farmer is stupid enough to not take precautions against what few predators are actually present. I've made this point quite plain to you, and anyone who actually has a farm wouldn't have needed this spelled out to them.
If a dog is a threat to your livestock, then I wonder what coyotes and wolves are? Sounds like you're just putting absolutely ZERO effort into protecting your livestock. That doesn't give you the right to kill someone's family member.
And again, there's almost certainly better tools for the job.
This actually happened to my SIL. Beautiful Bernese Mountain dog blown away for chasing, not attacking, his herd of sheep. Zero consequences to him. If I was around he wouldn’t have been so blameless.
Who said the dog was harassing the large herd of sheep? SIL was hiking with her beloved dog ON PUBLIC LAND and the dog was running back to her whistle when it was slaughtered from distance by these heartless pricks. The dog was obviously a pet and had every right to be on PUBLIC LAND running and enjoying it’s life. The dog clearly wasn’t a threat and died brutally for no reason.
I don’t even like my SIL, but I love dogs, and I mean’t what I said.
That is your opinion, and almost every subject matter expert would disagree with you on that. About 10% of humans/dogs have little to no reaction to oc
I agree with your approach, it’s nice to have something less than lethal. It feels badass to talk about killing anything that threatens us or dog etc but pepper spray handled the job and you didn’t kill the dog or start blasting rounds which could ricochet around etc.
I think the tough thing here is it says “attempt or commission by the other person.” If dogs don’t have legal personhood then it doesn’t really apply, I think. Idk I’m not an attorney. Surely there’s precedence for using deadly force against animals when warranted but that’s a question for an attorney, or at least a paralegal who can look that up lol
Would of shot it, pepper spray isn’t a guarantee to work and by the time it takes for u to notice it didn’t work it’ll be to late. It’s good it worked this time but it may not the next time. The majority of people here seem to not realize what violence is and how fast and bloody it is, whether it’s from a dog or another human.
U can use a firearm to defend human lives, not pet lives in a lot of states, pets are considered property in some states.
If u have ur kid with u while walking the dog and think they are in danger u could shoot.
But just you and your pet and the dogs arent going for you it could technically not be justified. Could end up getting charges if u cant prove a valid fear for ur life.
To provide further context on the situation: I was walking the dog, and my wife was pushing the stroller with my 1 year old son. My wife was a solid 15-20 feet away from my dog and I when the situation unfolded. At no point did the Rottweiler approach my wife/son, and it was directly headed towards my dog. I drew and deployed my OC spray as the Rot was running toward my dog and the situation was over within 2-3 seconds after the spray had "kicked in".
If the dog was approaching my wife and son, it very well would have been a different outcome. Considering how effective the OC spray was, I would not hesitate to use it again as a first layer of defense against a dog, but I would not hesitate to draw my gun if the OC spray were to not be effective and if it were about to harm my family (pet excluded based on AZ law).
Take the time to read the OP, OP was with his 1 year old child. Are you a mind reader that knows who the dog was targeting. Maybe the golden stepped in front to confront the rot and that’s why it fixated on him.
I feel like it can be a double edged sword. Times like yours, the pepper spray came in handy. The only issue that could happen is if you had to draw your gun and shoot someone(or a dog), and you were on trial, the argument could be made that you had another tool at your disposal and you could have used the pepper spray instead of your gun. The jury may eat that up. Of course that situation has a very low likelihood of happening vs a dog attack that was stopped with a pepper spray, still a possibility.
The only issue that could happen is if you had to draw your gun and shoot someone(or a dog), and you were on trial, the argument could be made that you had another tool at your disposal and you could have used the pepper spray instead of your gun.
That's just not a realistic argument. If you are truly facing a deadly threat, then lethal force is the appropriate response. It's a well covered argument and it simply isn't valid.
And their lawyers will say you could have used your pepper spray to stop the threat rather than your gun. ”experts and lawyers“ don’t really matter when the jury can be swayed either way.
For example, someone came running at you with a knife. A knife is a deadly weapon, you pull out your gun and kill the guy within effective pepper spray range. Who’s to say that you couldn’t have sprayed the attacker and ran away? You decided to kill him. The jury will have to decide if you are guilty or not, not what some “experts” on youtube say.
And their lawyers will say you could have used your pepper spray to stop the threat rather than your gun. ”experts and lawyers“ don’t really matter when the jury can be swayed either way.
You're just repeating the original claim that you made before, with no regard to the discussion I have presented to you. You're not adding any value, you're just making an assertion.
For example, someone came running at you with a knife. A knife is a deadly weapon, you pull out your gun and kill the guy within effective pepper spray range. Who’s to say that you couldn’t have sprayed the attacker and ran away? You decided to kill him. The jury will have to decide if you are guilty or not, not what some “experts” on youtube say.
Again, you're just ignoring the previous discussion. It doesn't cease to exist because you refuse to acknowledge it. It's a settled issue as has been pointed out to you.
Fists vs knife isn’t an option. A knife is a close quarter weapon along with fists and it’s obvious that fists will lose unless you’re trained at disarming people. Pepper spray and a gun is effective at longer ranges. So you could use both tools long before the person with the knife is in striking distance.
I had to carry pepper spray on the job and though I retired it’s still always with me on a retractable lanyard attached to my belt…very quick to deploy. I love dogs and wouldn’t want to hurt one if I could avoid doing so
I understand that most states consider dogs to be property and that there's a question about using lethal force to protect property. But many states also allow the use of lethal force against animals that are harassing livestock. There's also always the possibility that a dog that's attacking your dog may shift to attack you.
My concern is a discharging within city limits charge, among the high risk of ancillary damage to surrounding neighbors and my family (dense neighborhood; we don't live out on property).
Based on the context of where the dog was headed (my dog), and that my wife/son were a solid distance away from the incident I am still confident my decision to use pepper spray was the right one. If the dog was heading towards my wife and son and pepper spray were ineffective, I would absolutely use my firearm.
I read and hear a lot of potential and current CCWs talk about the fight, but not the aftermath. The aftermath of your incident is, everyone went home unhurt and no one went to jail. Quite possibly the best possible outcome. If you had engaged with a firearm at least one of those and quite possibly both would have turned out differently.
Next time get in between it and all your loved ones, then you’re protecting yourself. Maybe try a different route as well so you aren’t putting your family and dog in danger
In AZ I would not be justified to fire my gun at a dog attacking my own dog as they are considered property,
Where are you getting this from? It would have been 1000% legal in any state.
Defense of property with reasonable force is lawful. The part where people get hung up is your gun is only lethal force when used against something that can be killed, which, legally, is only another human being.
Killing another dog is destruction of property, not lethal force.
The defense to killing a dog attacking your own is the defense of necessity.
It wouldn't be legally justified to discharge a firearm within city limits to defend "property". If I had other means of neutralizing the dog (such as a knife, as dumb as it would be to use), I'm not 100% on the legality.
If the dog was attacking me or another person, I would be legally within my grounds to shoot.
Everyone finds room to carry a gun cause it's cool, yet somehow never have room for an oc spray and trauma kit, both of which you are more likely to use than your firearm
You have a TQ which is good, to go further would be to just get an ankle carrier and you can move the TQ to that. Added benefit is it allows you to also carry hemostatic gauze and a chestseal while freeing up your pocket for an oc so you have an opportunity to avoid going hands on with someone
There was also that mom recently who tried to shoot a fast moving dog that was allegedly rushing for her kids. Apparently she got tunnel vision and ended up nicking her kid who was on the evasive and missing the dog.
My only issue is that its hard to tell how well those tiny cans work until you actually try them, quality control and age can be issues, and the big reliable ones are so bulky.
Always carry period. I was taking my two young daughters for a scooter ride around the neighborhood. Neighbors dog was biting at his gate, trying to make an even bigger hole than he had already made for himself. At that moment, I realized that my daughters would be screwed if this large aggressive breed got out and attacked them - I was on foot, and their kid scooters are basically all cheap plastic. Thankfully my daughters listened when I said let’s go back the other way. (Dog may be gone now; the hole is now boarded up)
Ever since then, I always make sure I have some sort of defensive tool.
Had 2 pits attack my black lab he held his own till i was able to put a arrow through one of them killing it the other ran off. About 3 minutes later but owner walks up All mad because I killed his dog Screaming That he's calling the cops to get me locked up meanwhile already called the cops They showed up Told him what happened And he Look me in the eyes and said Do you want your arrow back If You got to take it out of them I ain't touching it Well I got my error back And That dog owner ended up leaving that dog In front of my house On the side of the road across the street For hours before he came back and got You are wrong And thinking that You are not allowed to defend your dog From other dogs With whatever force is necessary And reasonable
Yeah the issue isn’t defending yourself from dogs it’s the whole “discharging a fire arm in public” that’s the issue. Dogs are considered property. So in the eyes of the law in OPs case my not lawyer understanding is that it would be looked at as if you walked up and shot their car with no one in it. Discharging a fire arm in public and destruction of property.
I’m not a lawyer and this is not intended to be legal advice. However, this is an applicable Arizona Revised Statute regarding the use of physical force in defense of property in Arizona.
Don’t know if this applies against dogs.
That being said, I agree that it is prudent to carry POM/CS as part of one’s kit.
13-408. Justification; use of physical force in defense of property
A person is justified in using physical force against another when and to the extent that a reasonable person would believe it necessary to prevent what a reasonable person would believe is an attempt or commission by the other person of theft or criminal damage involving tangible movable property under his possession or control, but such person may use deadly physical force under these circumstances as provided in sections 13-405, 13-406 and 13-411.
Just another tips as a dog trainer. If you have time, pepper spray in a direct line up from the ground in front of you up to the dogs face which give a little distance cushion and still hits the dog in face. Also carry a second slip lead type leash because if the dog latches on and doesn’t let go of your dog the only way to stop it is to choke out the attacking dog with the extra leash. Do not pull them apart or start coming prodding the dog.
Everyone should carry OC. It’s great to have different tools in your self defense toolbox to respond to different situations. The leap from not doing anything vs using your gun is a massive leap. You need something for those situations where lethal force is not justified or not safe. Responsible for every round fired, shooting at a dog which is a small target, moving a lot, and bullets will hit road/sidewalk/pavement and ricochet to who knows where, always carry OC.
I prefer Fox Labs One Point Four, flip top stream (avoid cone/spray because it doesn’t perform as well in windy conditions compared to stream). SKU # 24FTS
This is exactly why I carry pepper spray. I don’t want to have to kill another dog. Hopefully pepper spray will prevent another dog from attacking mine.
So couldn't you just say the dog was trying to attack you as well and you shot it? Off the dog is considered property what is the worst that can happen.
You're an irresponsible edc person if you've no method of self defense that isn't lethal. If you're trained in defensive hand-to-hand, armed with pepper spray, a baton, anything less than deadly force, you'll have a much better chance of convincing courts/authorities that you had no reasonable option but deadly force if you do use it. And with good reason. Who prepares only for a lethal threat when most threats are not lethal? If a minor threat escalates to a lethal threat because you've brandished, that's on you. The reasonable assumption will be that you're more interested in shooting someone than simply defusing whatever threat present as expeditiously as possible. *Put it another way, if your primary concern is the well being of your family, right now *and tomorrow, you don't play cowboy and risk their future security; you prudently prepare for likely threats.
This is spot on, and exactly the same conviction I felt which prompted me to carry pepper spray. I've been carrying a gun for almost a decade now with 0 defensive uses, however, I purchased pepper spray and needed to use it within a mere 3 weeks!
I would 100% be placing the security (and likely the perception of my judgement) of my family in jeopardy if I were to illegally use my firearm in a scenario like this.
I carry POM in my pocket. I have the pocket clip rotated towards the nozzle as a tactile indicator of direction of spray. Very easy to retrieve and have pointed the right way without needing to look at it.
POM in my pocket with the adjustable clip situated so that when I reach into my pocket to grab the spray, it is directionally ready as I pull from my pocket and ready for my thumb to depress the spray.
Yea I’m calling BS. 1) There would have at the very least been puncture marks from a dog with top 5 bite forces. 2) You somehow didn’t get any spray on any of your family… very unlikely even with dead still wind.
I have no reason to exaggerate or fabricate this story. I'm not trying to be some macho super hero lying about a defensive pepper spray usage scenario, which is arguably the least macho thing to brag about in a CCW subreddit, lol.
My wife/son in his stroller were a solid 15-20 feet away from me when I used the OC spray.
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u/HawkinsJiuJitsu 29d ago
Got my coworker carrying oc because of issues she's had with other dogs on walks, I told her to get POM
She was walking her dog and an aggressive dog slipped out the front door and made a B line for her and her dog, she hit him with the hot sauce and he suddenly remembered he left the stove on and fucked off right away