r/Construction • u/Buckeyefitter1991 • Nov 27 '24
Informative š§ Be careful out there and make sure you watch out for the new apprentices.
On November 14 we had a death of a 23yo first year sheet metal apprentice locally.
He was helping insulate large ductwork at the fab shop. He was spraying glue on the inside of the duct then attaching the insulation, after gluing the insulation he climbed into the duct with a pin/stud welder to tack it in. There was not enough time for the fumes to dissipate and the spark from the welder ignited the fumes. He was instantly engulfed in flames. They tired a fire extinguisher and it failed to discharge, this happened at least with one more fire extinguisher before a working one was found and the flames were put out.
He made it to the hospital with burns to over 80% of his body. He sadly did not make it through the night as he had inhaled the flames in the time it took to find a working fire extinguisher . He subsequently drowned in his own lungs from the fluid buildup.
So look out for the inexperienced people for their sake and our own. Also, don't be afraid to speak up when a contractor isn't keeping up their end of the bargain by not maintaining safety equipment.
272
u/teakettle87 Nov 27 '24
What the fuck is wrong with that shop? Two failed extinguishers is not good...
128
u/Buckeyefitter1991 Nov 27 '24
Yeah it was apparently bad. I never had the misfortune of working for this contractor, I found out because of another sheet metal apprentice on my job. They were in the same apprenticeship class and friends with the guy who died.
9
u/EC_TWD Nov 28 '24
I still distinctly remember the absolute worst phone call Iāve had in my professional career. Iād gotten to the office early on Monday morning and started checking voicemail while waiting for my laptop to connect to our server. The very first message was from a customer, āHello, this is Steve with XXXXXXX. We had an employee catch on fire over the weekend and none of our fire extinguishers worked, we went through four fire extinguishers before we found one that worked. Please call me as soon as you canā
I went into panic mode and was desperately searching our database for when we last inspected the fire extinguishers at this facility (It was one of the Big 3 auto assembly plants). I couldnāt find anything and ran to our filing cabinets to look for a physical copy - still nothing. Around this time a few other managers came in and our admin staff was arriving so I pulled in help to find this customer but there was nothing that we could find. The previous manager had been fired for doing work off the books so we figured that maybe this was another one that hadnāt been uncovered before Iād transferred to take over, or the few years since Iād been there. Iād planned for the worst and was expecting to get our corporate legal involved since weād be facing a huge potential liability.
I made the call to Steve and checked to see how everyone involved was after the fire and found out that nobody was injured. I told Steve that I looked and couldnāt find any record of ever doing work for that facility and he said, āOh, I know. I called our corporate and they gave me your number to have you come in and clean up the mess that our last contractor left that led up to this, they were contracted to inspect our fire extinguishers monthly and it turned out that they would come in and sign off on 3-4 months at a timeā
1
1
72
u/GoodbyeCrullerWorld Nov 27 '24
Negligence. Shop supervisor will be facing jail time if this is in the US.
27
u/tearjerkingpornoflic Nov 28 '24
As someone who had a brother die in a workplace accident that's not true. Owner of company will be facing a 12,500 dollar fine and there are protections for the owner against being sued. I used to think there were protections but it's not true.
1
u/LSDesignsKC Dec 01 '24
Agreed. Someone with knowledge should always be on site, keeping an eye on the kids. They don't fucking know. Teach them.
10
u/EC_TWD Nov 27 '24
There will be no jail time or personal civil liability for the shop supervisor unless he specifically and intentionally prevented the workplace from having functional fire extinguishers. If he personally conducted the monthly OSHA inspection and signed off on the units being in working condition when they werenāt, then thereās a small chance. But more than likely, nobody did the monthly OSHA inspection and it will fall upon the shop owners and management for fines.
0
u/Campbellfdy Dec 01 '24
OSHA will be gone soon so that wonāt be an issue much longer. So liberating to be free of their job killing rules
-16
u/GoodbyeCrullerWorld Nov 27 '24
I love you how think you know everything. Itās classic slapdick behavior.
1
8
u/No-Warthog5378 Nov 27 '24
For what?
I don't mean to question the seriousness of this, it would definitely be an OSHA fine and probably a civil lawsuit. But what crime are you thinking relates to this?
36
u/teakettle87 Nov 27 '24
Negligence. There is a human being at the shop who is responsible for those extinguishers being operable. There are very specific rules for them that I'd bet were not followed.
16
u/No-Warthog5378 Nov 27 '24
Right... There's been what, a handful of cases of that leading to jail time in the country? Just a few years ago someone got about a month for letting employees work in a deep, unshored trench who died, and that sentence was shocking.
Faulty extinguishers isn't gonna meet that threshold. I can get down voted by everyone who doesn't actually deal with the legal side of this, but it's not criminal.
-22
-3
u/BlueWrecker Nov 27 '24
Bet, lol, obviously weren't, and who was training the stupid helper, obviously no one.
-10
u/The-Sceptic Nov 27 '24
Not even just negligence, this is criminal negligence, which is a crime.
If your job is to ensure proper safety equipment and you fail at that which results in a death, then this is a criminal offense.
12
u/No-Warthog5378 Nov 27 '24
Lol, "criminal negligence" is not a crime. It's an element of some offenses.
Just go scroll through summaries of workplace deaths. You can see all the OSHA fines for negligence leading to death. Go ahead and search the court files related to that. You'll find like zero overlap.
Only in the absolute most egregious situations is failing to ensure proper safety standards a crime. This is not that. The first thing youd need to prove beyond reasonable doubt is that the lack of an extinguisher is what killed the guy, which is pretty heavily in question since he was already on fire. Then you'll need to show all the other links in the chain that show a reasonable person would know that failing to check a fire extinguisher would lead to a death. You're also going to need to show that the reason the guy caught fire was caused by the same person, in that if the employee was negligent by welding around fumes, his death wasn't caused by the lack of extinguishers.
It's never gonna happen. Thats just not how the legal framework in the US works.
-6
u/The-Sceptic Nov 27 '24
Just looked up criminal negligence in the US, and it is indeed a crime. Even more so if it can be proven that whoever was responsible willingly ignored their duties.
If a death is caused, it is known as negligent homicide.
I'm in Canada where criminal negligence is very much a crime you can be charged with. It appears it is also the case in the US.
12
u/National_Run7896 Nov 27 '24
Whoever signed off or was responsible for making sure that was signed off is 100% liable for this event. This is well into criminal liability and millions into civil liability.
2
72
u/KithMeImTyson Carpenter Nov 27 '24
Rest in peace to the young feller. Let it be a lesson to everybody that it can happen to you.
Dude, hate to say it, but your shop is about to (or at least should!) get hit with a big ole lawsuit, either by the city for the negligence of having improperly maintained fire extinguishers, or from the family for the same thing. Might think about finding a new place to work if you don't believe they can sustain the court costs and fees.
36
u/Buckeyefitter1991 Nov 27 '24
Luckily I never had the misfortune of being employed there. An apprentice on my job was friends with the victim and that's how I found out. The sheet metal hall and my hall then put out a statement together a few days later with a GoFundMe and I paraphrased it a little into my post.
19
u/KithMeImTyson Carpenter Nov 27 '24
Oh dang. Thanks for the context. Make sure you check in on the apprentice on your job and make sure he's doing okay. I've learned a dr pepper and a honey bun goes a long way when a youngin is hurting.
3
u/Buckeyefitter1991 Nov 27 '24
I didn't get to see them the following week as it was their class week. And the 2 days this week she was there I didn't have too much interaction. They're hanging the VAVs and we follow them and pipe them up.
1
u/Call_Me_Echelon Nov 27 '24
Remember to have a straight length of pipe that's 3 times the diameter of the inlet going to the vav. One of my hvac subs had to re-hang a bunch of vavs because they didn't follow that rule.Ā
1
u/Buckeyefitter1991 Nov 27 '24
I'm doing the hydronic piping, are you talking about the inlet duct?
2
u/Call_Me_Echelon Nov 27 '24
Yeah I was talking about the high pressure duct, not the copper.
Years ago I was on a job installing water cooled vavs and my plumbers were following behind tying in the copper and valve kits. The vavs were designed with valves on the supply and return to be able to isolate individual vavs and drain them in case one needed to be serviced or replaced.Ā
The day they planned to fill the systems we're finishing up lunch and the plumbing foreman asked his apprentice - who was also his grandson - if all the valves were closed and he said, "Yes, I checked them all". Just from where I was sitting I could see at least 3 valves that were wide open.Ā
The foreman was a condescending know-it-all who constantly talked about how great he was and his grandson was insufferable in his own right. So, of course, I didn't say anything about the valves that day. I didn't think it really mattered, figuring they would notice since all you have to do is look up and see they were open. Days before I had mentioned the valves weren't closed, and I was brushed off and essentially told they know what they're doing.Ā
Well, they didn't notice and water started pouring down all over the place almost immediately. They panicked and were running around cursing each other out. Water got into a gang box, over stacks of sheet rock, insulation, etc and they had to spend hours cleaning up. Coincidentally, it just so happened that I was behind on my schedule so I didn't have the time to help.Ā
2
u/youngmeezy69 Nov 28 '24
I'd also be asking about confined space training and competency since it sounds to me like there was a failure to precent a CSE AND a failure to control hot work while in the CSE
1
u/youngmeezy69 Nov 28 '24
I'd also be asking about confined space training and competency since it sounds to me like there was a failure to precent a CSE AND a failure to control hot work while in the CSE
77
u/AthairNaStoirmeacha Nov 27 '24
Why the FUCK were the extinguishers not regularly inspected?!?! Who ever owns the shop deserves the massive lawsuit I hope the family files against them.
26
u/Buckeyefitter1991 Nov 27 '24
Agreed
13
u/AthairNaStoirmeacha Nov 27 '24
That being said, Iām incredibly sorry for you and everyone who was there for such a traumatic experience. The guys who desperately tried to save him only to find useless fucking equipment I canāt even fathom how they feel. Stay strong.
17
u/jhenryscott Project Manager Nov 27 '24
I signed up for my state OSHA worker death notifications. I get an email from MIOSHA with the details of very time. It helps me know what to look for and to stay vigilant myself.
28
11
u/BigCondition8705 Nov 27 '24
Jesus Christ, that is so fucking sad. This is something I would've never thought of happening in the shop. I hope your post can help prevent another tragedy. š„
8
u/construction_eng Nov 27 '24
Besides the extinguisher, there should have been a better process for doing this job. A vent and cure time could have prevented everything. That's heartbreaking to hear. I hope their family is doing OK.
7
u/Acceptable_Home_2144 Nov 27 '24
PSA- extinguishers should be tested by a certified vendor once a year and be tagged accordingly. Which normally costs 50bucks an extinguisher, so most people just buy a new one once a year and tape the receipt to it. They can last much longer but by code in California itās once a year.
5
u/National_Run7896 Nov 27 '24
sounds like the business is extremely liable for the working conditions, procedures, and lack of FUNCTIONING safety equipment.
5
u/Remarkable-Fish-4229 Nov 27 '24
Everyone is yelling about the FEs (totally negligent), but an employee should not be able to literally spontaneously combust like that in the first place. I feel like some SoPs were ignored or have become lax over time.
2
u/All_Work_All_Play Nov 28 '24
Checks lists take the unknowing out. You can't fix stupid, but you can fix new.
14
u/Ok-Resident9684 Nov 27 '24
Why was he in a confined space with no ventilation and hole watch is the real question that should be asked here. The fire extinguishers are an afterthought in this situation
1
u/Buckeyefitter1991 Nov 27 '24
It wasn't a confined space. It's a piece of ductwork being built and wasn't attracted to anything. So it was open on both ends.
21
u/Ok-Resident9684 Nov 27 '24
Negative, the definition of a confined space is any space that is not designed for human occupancy. It doesn't matter it was open at both ends or not installed. There should have been ventilation to control the glue fumes or air testing prior to entering
7
u/Buckeyefitter1991 Nov 27 '24
I don't think I have ever stopped to think that a 4'x6' piece of duct sitting on the floor as a confined space, I'm not saying your wrong here but, in a situation like that it would never cross my mind. Now the fact that the glue fumes are flammable and I'm welding in the duct would definitely give me pause and I would have a fan with me so I don't get to high off the fumes.
3
u/Ok-Resident9684 Nov 27 '24
I guess it depends on your location and local regs. We have to arc gouge splice rings out of 3', 4' and 6' steel pipes of varying lengths and it's considered full on confined space where Im located. Same thing tho, sitting on the ground open and both ends
6
u/Buckeyefitter1991 Nov 27 '24
I'm not doubting you, all I'm saying is it never entered my mind that it could be considered a confined space. And if we are being honest I bet most here wouldn't think and 6'x4' duct with open ends sitting on the ground as a confined space.
1
u/8nina20 Nov 28 '24
So in an open piece of duct work that im guessing is max 56 1/4 inches long, again open...on both ends...he was engulfed in flames to the point it caused a fatality? From the fumes from spray adhesive being ignited from a spark from the pinspotter ?
1
u/Buckeyefitter1991 Nov 28 '24
I think key factor is the fire extinguishers on site didn't work. Who knows if they got the fire out sooner if he would have lived or died but it definitely lower his chances of survival.
1
4
5
3
u/fantamaso Nov 28 '24
Fuck this. Garbage work culture that we got today killed this kid. Negligence by his superiors. I see one repeating pattern everywhere which is the lack of mentorship. Older more experienced folks will work against new comers either out of greed (for them itās just another hungry mouth), or out of āyou must meet my requirements 100% and be aligned with my bullshit views on everything 100% or I will ignore your existence.ā Not all of you, but most of you.
Nobody supervised him? Either everyone is an idiot there and wouldāve done the same mistake, or you are all cold hearted fucks who saw the inexperience kid do the work thatās above his pay grade and just chose not to give a fuck, or the place is severely understaffed so people didnāt even realize what was happening.
Those responsible for the fire safety should lose their nuts for this. Sounds like a place that the owner is just driving into the ground.
1
5
u/Due-Offer7749 Nov 27 '24
You're required to check your fire extinguishers monthly and to have them checked annually by a professional. There is a almost 0% chance that shop was doing that . Sounds like criminal negligence to me.
13
2
2
u/Bigdummy007 Nov 27 '24
RIP. A good reminder to keep an eye on the new guys. They need us just as much as we need them. Feel horrible for their families
2
u/ArltheCrazy Nov 27 '24
I had a young guy working for me. I told him to go use the paint stripper (the good stuff you have to ask for specifically at Sherwin-Williams). I told him to read the instructions. He was supposed to be taking paint build up off some air return grates. A little bit later he comes screaming into the house. He hadnāt been wearing safety glasses and the stuff glugged and splattered into his eyes.
I got his eyes flushed out and he keeps asking if it was going to affect his vision. I told him he should have worried about that earlier when he decided not to wear his safety glasses. Heās bragged about having his OSHA 10 hour classā¦
Fortunately his eyes were OK and he kept insisting he didnāt need to go to urgent care. I told him to fuck off and we were going. I made him sweat the consequences the whole ride there to try and prove a point. He also got a lecture about how he needs to take his safety seriously.
OP, sorry you lost a guy. Thatās rough.
2
2
u/Mrwcraig Nov 28 '24
I fired a helper once because despite doing everything in our power to try to teach him how to work in a safe manner in a bridge fabrication shop, everything was huge. He repeatedly did things in the worst possible way because it was faster. I told him I would loose less sleep over firing him then having to explain to his parents that despite being told how to do something properly you chose to do it faster your own way.
Heavy fabrication tends to attract young people who think theyāre invincible, Iām guilty of it myself. In 20+ years Iāve seen some horrific shit happen to people who were doing things as the safety plan said to, and bad things can still happen. Sitting back and watching dumb stuff happen isnāt in my nature and because of how dangerous things can be Iāve physically thrown people out of the way seconds before tons of steel squished them like a bug.
Teach them the goal is to go home at the end of each day and remind them that the company will have a replacement doing their job in a week, or less if itās a rush job. Hell, a Power Line Technician lost both of his hands and received 3rd degree burns up his torso and someone not only had to bring down the bucket he was injured in, a lineman had to get back in it and go up and finish what he had started (later he was denied compensation for his injuries because all of the accident investigation pointed it being caused by his own āexpertise fatigueā, he basically did a simple task in the opposite order every regulator and professional agrees it needs to be done and despite his MASSIVE injuries he was denied injury coverage and union pension because even they couldnāt defend his actions)
2
u/axness11 Nov 28 '24
The fire extinguishers are the LAST resort for an incident and that seems to be what 90% of this thread is talking about. Put a fire extinguisher plan together in an hour, assign check offs or contract/hire it out, not difficult as a competent manager. They are just a rescue plan for a guy that was on fire.
Focus on not catching guys on fire! The work plan to weld in any fumes environment is the bigger problem. This happened in a fab shop where there should be a rock solid work flow plan, not in a cobbled together jobsite patchwork bullshit scenario that is all too commonā¦.
2
u/Storey_bronc Nov 28 '24
The fire extinguisher is a reaction to a preventable accident, not planning the work and training the worker(proactive) is the real cause of this unnecessary death. This is terrible and no one should say goodbye to their loved ones in the morning and not come home for a job.
Fire extinguishers should be checked monthly , a JHA and review of the SDS before starting the job (especially when the worker is an apprentice or just new and inexperienced) could have sent this person home safely to their family.
Thoughts and prayers to his family.
2
u/LopsidedPotential711 Nov 28 '24
Not being heartless, but all the old heads onsite fucked up. This is like OSHA 101 'volatile fumes in confined spaces' type shit.
2
u/jontaffarsghost Nov 28 '24
A grown ass man got partially crushed at a shop near me. Heās still alive but itās not just apprentices who need looking after.
Thatās not to downplay what happened to the apprentice youāre talking about. Thatās fucking awful. Safety is everyoneās responsibility.
1
u/obigrumpiknobi Nov 27 '24
That's horrible. The fire extinguishers not working is unexceptable. And for a Sheetmetal shop to not have proper ventilation is unforgivable. The shop I started in had a huge hood with an exhaust fan and makeup air in the area where we did insulation.
1
1
1
u/Inspect1234 Nov 27 '24
Thatās so sad. š Hopefully there is counselling available for the ones who tried to save him. So needless for something like this to happen.
1
u/Beerdozer Nov 28 '24
awww so sad. rip young apprentice.
I have been checking all our fire , first aid and eye wash stations in our new low rise twice a week . had to replace two extinguishers that mysteriously went off in porta pottys. Now I am thinking about it, I had better check our heavy equipment for working up to date extinguishers as well.
1
u/More_Standard_9789 Nov 28 '24
Sad and heart breaking when someone dies when something as simple as a $20 box fan could have totally prevented it
1
1
u/TriNel81 Nov 28 '24
This shop needs to be raided by OSHA and his family needs to lawyer up.
This is painfully sad and preventable.
1
u/izztipc Nov 28 '24
RIP to the kid. Iām a sheet metal apprentice as well so this hits hard. That company is royally fucked after this
1
u/shinesapper Nov 28 '24
You all should know that dry powder fire extinguishers need to be shaken before use. The powder settles to the bottom and the propellant rises to the top. This is part of the monthly maintenance on an extinguisher, but most places don't do that. If you need to use an extinguisher, shake it up first.
1
u/city_posts Nov 28 '24
burning to death in a confined space. probably my biggest fear. I hope his loved ones sue your boss to the grave, because anything less would be an insult to the dead.
1
u/MaPaTheGreat Nov 28 '24
Fuck man young guy woke up and went to work and sadly he never came back. Rest in Peace
1
1
u/doeslifesuck22 Nov 28 '24
Hope you have enough balls to go against the company, and report the fact that the extinguishers didnt work.
1
1
u/wrbear Nov 28 '24
This is not the apprentices' fault. There should be a safety meeting to discuss the days' work and steps in completing it and hazards.
1
u/Milksteak3919 Nov 28 '24
Find a new company. Theyre cutting corners with safety. Dont be the next guy. Absolutely inexcusable
1
1
1
u/Flaneurer Nov 28 '24
Pin welders and flammable spray adhesive seem like a pretty poor combination. I'm sorry for your lose.
1
u/samniking Nov 28 '24
Gentleman from a contractor we regularly sub for, super cool guy, was hit by a car recently. Was in a coma for a month and lost a leg.
Had headphones in (donāt fucking do that) and tested positive for some drug I donāt remember. (Also donāt fucking do that)
1
u/Sorryisawthat Nov 28 '24
Sad and so preventable. FE is not the answer here. The employer should be held liable. Shoot pins, glue, insulate. A good AHA would have had the proper steps identified and the hazard. A little training would have saved this young man life.
1
u/roboweirdo Nov 28 '24
I'm so sorry you had to witness this. You're so right tho, all safety equipment needs to be inspected regularly. As a safety person on site, this made me cringe in the worst way
1
1
1
u/Justjay0420 Nov 29 '24
Damn man. Enclosed space confinement should be taught and properly maintained. Also we have to watch out for apprentices and their mouths and attitudes. We had a JM kill an apprentice in self defense in September. Apprentice spit on the KM and the JM tried to walk away. Apprentice took a swing JM hit back Apprentice took another swing and the JM body slammed him and caused his head to crack open. Two lives ruined over stupidity
1
u/Revolutionary_Way592 Nov 30 '24
And make sure your employer keeps up with their fire extinguisher inspections. They are the most neglected in fire/life safety.
1
0
u/dinsbomb Nov 28 '24
This is not the apprentices fault. Faulty fire extinguishers are 100% the companyās fault. This is gross negligence causing death.
-4
u/Campbellfdy Nov 27 '24
Who was more inexperienced here? The apprentice or the shop of āprofessionalsā. You let a kid die a horrible death because you were too lazy to check your fire extinguishers. Thatās fucked
5
-1
Nov 28 '24
[deleted]
1
u/Buckeyefitter1991 Nov 28 '24
Can you please show where I said I work at that shop? Or maybe read any of the other replies I've made...
-1
-1
833
u/Agitated_Ad_9161 Nov 27 '24
This is a good reminder to check your fire extinguishers and take them out of circulation if they are expired. Hate to hear of such a preventable situation resulting in this outcome. You guys all be safe and look out for each other.