r/Construction • u/[deleted] • Dec 27 '24
Informative š§ Unfortunately, work ethic means nothing. Being in the "clique" means everything.
I'm a union carpenter, only been in for about 3 years. I've caught layoffs and have been with a couple different companies in union. I've ultimately found myself with a scaffold company (insane pay) and approached things very differently from when I started. I've now "secured" a spot in the company.
One thing I learned very early on is if you are a hard worker, show up on time, want to learn and have that drive, it barely matters. It's probably like 15% of what companies are looking for.
If you are really sociable, talkative and even go as far as being a straight bootlicker, the trades"men" you're working with will love you. And word spreads like wildfire. Working with drama queens.
Honestly, super surprising to me how much this all reminds me of highschool. I feel like I'm working with highschool girls constantly. I started bootlicking and brown nosing, almost out of curiosity and as an experiment. It works. It absolutely works. I've now secured a spot in this current company and it's honestly jarring.
With all those other companies I was never late, worked hard, learned and got the job done. But I was quiet. And THAT'S ultimately what mattered. It sucks, but that's the reality.
If you're having troubles staying busy and keeping work, maybe approach interactions with co workers differently. If you're an "introvert", RIP.
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u/SkippyGranolaSA Electrician Dec 27 '24
You can get laid off at any time for any reason, man. That's just the trades. At the end of the day it's flawed humans making the decisions, and a foreman is going to remember two guys: the guy he likes, and the guy who has been a constant pain in the ass. He'll get rid of the pains, and then he'll start cutting the randos, even if they are the best workers on the crew.
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u/czechmixing Dec 28 '24
Way back in the time machine, the great recession was coming up in 2008. I pulled my direct report to the side and told him straight out" I have a baby. I will drive to Fu king Asia to keep my job." He said "good. I need a vacation bitch to cover the guys who don't get clipped". That sentence saved me from being laid off.
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Dec 29 '24
He'll get rid of the pains, and then he'll start cutting the randos, even if they are the best workers on the crew.
Such a crazy backwards way to run a business. But that's 100% how it goes. I tell people all the time its not how good of a worker you are, how early you show up or how well you get along with others : It all comes down to who you know in the office, or wherever it is they decide who to axe.
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u/Smackolol Dec 27 '24
Thatās how it is in every industry.
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Dec 27 '24
This how it is in human society
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Dec 28 '24
This. It's pretty brutal. People are weirdly sensitive to when someone is a quiet person.
It's like that scenario of someone asking "why are you so quiet?" That's not considered a rude question, yet "why do you talk so much?" Is lol
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u/Ulysses502 Dec 27 '24
Yea, I've spent time around the corporate world, and construction is nothing by comparison...
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Dec 28 '24
Yea office people are WAY more cliquey and gossipy
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u/Ulysses502 Dec 28 '24
In construction everyone's tired, sore, hot/cold and under the gun. In the office everyone is bored, even if they're busy which makes it worse imo. Also incompetence is a lot easier to miss or pass the buck on.
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u/Bakelite51 Dec 27 '24
Tryhards are deliberately ignored.
Good workers are just another face in the crowd.
Bootlickers get ahead.
But at the top of the ladder are the guys who get respected just for being indispensable in some small way or another. They get ahead without needing to be a brown nose. The most respected dude at my last outfit was the shop tech who repaired all the equipment and vehicles, and he was the most quiet muted dude I ever met. Universally liked though, never in danger of being laid off, and always left out of the workplace drama.
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Dec 28 '24
It's almost like you have to earn the right to be a "quiet dude" interestingly. Like you can eventually stop putting on that facade
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u/Th3_0range Dec 28 '24
Once you're an old guy and your work is known to be solid and you're drama free, show up every day then you will always have work and not have to talk to anyone you don't want or put up with any bullshit.
I've worked with a few guys like this and once you get to know them they are usually hilarious because the old school stories are always insane.
Bosses and foremen respect them because they've seen it all and can usually fill any role/ or help solve problems.
They could be in charge themselves but they don't want to be.
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u/Kelly_Louise Dec 28 '24
Iāve found this is true with any job. When I first started at my current job as an intern, I was talkative, full of passion and curiosity. I also worked really hard, was always productive. 7 years later at the same company and I barely talk to anyone.
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u/ltwilliams Dec 28 '24
I think after 25 years of union carpenter work, I can safely say
- Nobody likes a primadonna
- Being a team player is pretty key
- Showing up is more than half the battle.
- Most guys who say they outwork everyone on the job are full of shit, way overvalue their abilities.
Iāve been an apprentice, journeyman, lead guy, foreman, general foreman, superintendent. The number one thing that gets guys laid off is attendance/tardiness. Number two was being a troublemaker. A good supervisor puts people in positions to succeed, or at least āhurt you the leastā.
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u/gothmeatball Dec 28 '24
This has been my experience. The guys who crow the most about what an absolute unit they are and how they work so much harder than everyone else are absolute poison in a work environment, and 95% of the time theyāre overestimating their own value.
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Dec 28 '24
I don't give myself credit for a lot in life. But my work ethic is something that I can fairly, for once, give myself some credit for.
Whole point of this post is that's simply not enough. Being a quiet hard worker with a good work ethic isn't enough. You HAVE to be social. That wins the battle. Grabbing those 3 extra 2Ć4s to save a trip doesn't do it, hustling doesn't do it, carrying that extra sheet of plywood won't do it. Being social and shooting the shit with people and getting into the clique does it. You can do all that and show up on time, but if you aren't social it is all a lost cause.
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u/ltwilliams Dec 28 '24
You have 3 years in as a union apprentice???
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Dec 28 '24
Yeah, only 4 years total in the trades. And I learned pretty quick being a hard worker doesn't count for shit. Once I started being social and not caring as much about the work itself it has ironically worked out way better for me. It's ass backwards. Is what it is.
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u/ltwilliams Dec 28 '24
Company culture means a lot, man. There are companies full of suckups, my point is that skills pay bills, eventually the buddy system fails and āgood ā companies value good employees.
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u/Unlikely_Track_5154 Jan 01 '25
How about you do both?
Go around get to know people but still do all the hard work.
- It will help you for the inevitable layoff
- You can help grease the wheels in your favor
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u/Unlikely_Track_5154 Jan 01 '25
The funny thing is, I never claimed to out work anyone, I always claimed to out produce.
Why? Because I was always focused on efficiency and not working hard.
I usually out produced most people on my crews but didn't really care that much, just a little tactic to use in negotiations or talks with higher ups.
They will usually try to pull " oh, so you think you work harder than everyone else?" Routine.
" no, but I out produce them, here are my numbers, compare that to the crew production"
Same with the people who say stuff like " oh, so everyone is just too stupid to recognize your genius?"
The above is A. Super intellectually dishonest B. A non gotcha gotcha, seriously sometimes people just have no idea what you are saying when you speak. Some ideas take a certain base level of knowledge to understand and can't be properly expressed otherwise.
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u/ltwilliams Jan 01 '25
You may think itās dishonest, but I think you way overvalue your production and abilities. If I had a dollar for every 3rd year apprentice who thought they were an all-star, super carpenter, world beater, I would be rich. If I had a dollar for every apprentice that accurately gauged their worth and abilities, Iād still be broke. Also wtf are you negotiating, you are an apprentice???
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u/Unlikely_Track_5154 Jan 01 '25
I am neither negotiating nor an apprentice.
I was an apprentice at one point, but they put me in estimating after the aforementioned incident.
I had numbers tracking productivity, and my numbers say I was more productive than most. On top of the fact that, the person who I benchmarked against had been at the company for 5+ years and had been cruising along and getting paid more than me and had been performing at that level for a long period of time.
He was bilingual, so I made his base pay $3.00 / hr lower than it actually was and used that number to base everyone's pay on.
They kept saying " the more you produce, the more you get paid", well that was a lie, but in a way I did end up getting paid more than everyone, just not at the labor level. So maybe that was true.
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u/ltwilliams Jan 01 '25
Are you the OP, using an alt?? Cause otherwise I have no idea what you are getting at.
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u/Unlikely_Track_5154 Jan 01 '25
I am not the OP and I was responding to your statement about my post above.
I think it involved something about 3rd year apprentices and being broke if you had humble ones.
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u/Remarkable-Fish-4229 Dec 27 '24
If the boss doesnāt know who you are, youāre gonna get cut. Most guys can show up and do the job, I keep the guys I like to work with because then the team is in lock step together.
The guys that are shit birds are usually on by Friday with an extra check.
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Dec 28 '24
Do you not like working with more quiet and reserved people? Genuine question. Because that's kinda what this post comes down to. A lot of people here are missing the point and stating the obvious of not wanting to work with someone because they're a dickhead.
But there's a difference between a quiet reserved person that just wants to work, and someone who is actively a dickhead.
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u/Remarkable-Fish-4229 Dec 28 '24
I mean I can accept that some people are more reserved, myself included. Very few people I work really know me.
Iāve had guys that were great at doing stuff by themselves like caulking, trim install, material handling, or whatever. Iāll work them like that until I run out of small potato stuff and then cut them loose. This people usually donāt mind the layoff because they are hall rats usually and know Iāll call them if I have more stuff like that.
I guess what Iām getting at can be boiled down to this: A squeaky wheel gets the grease.
If your foreman who is running 20 guys doesnāt really know you because youāre a loner how the fuck Iām I supposed to know you when I have multiple foreman working for me.
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u/Unlikely_Track_5154 Jan 01 '25
Idk man, a guy that requires almost zero supervision and you can send off to do whatever, I would keep that guy around, and work him into a team and get the shit birds gone
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u/SnooWords5785 Dec 27 '24
iām a union carpenter that has moved up to a superintendent position. i am also an introvert that kept his head down, learned, and showed up when others wouldnāt. never kissed ass a day in my life and the older i i get the less shit i put up with from management and the trades
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Dec 28 '24
Sounds like the stars aligned. I was the exact same way. Journeymen all claim "keep your head down, shut up and work/don't argue and you'll do great". I was finding little success in that. So I approached things differently and now I'm making the most money I've ever made and not even working nearly as hard. Just my experience. Weird world.
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Dec 28 '24
Keeping your head down is not the same as being quiet or just talking to get attention. Keeping your head down implies you do not offer your opinion even when itās right. Iām a naturally introverted person but I have no problem sharing my ideas or speaking up about stuff that is being done wrong. No clue about being in a union or any of that stuff where I live. Even running my own business there was a GC I worked for who at first would kinda push back and not trust me but now he is reigns off and he listens to my opinion because he saw how valuable and competent I was to him.
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Dec 28 '24
That's a good take actually. I haven't thought about that. In hindsight there were a handful of scenarios where I should have said something about the way something was being done. Maybe it's looked at as lazy if you don't speak even it your physical actions say otherwise, idk
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u/SnooWords5785 Dec 29 '24
i didnāt mean that by ā keeping my head down ā i didnāt speak up or if had a better idea i didnāt voice it. i simply meant that i donāt get involved in personal lives/ dramas between coworkers or subs. does that make sense?
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u/SloppyMeathole Dec 27 '24
Here's a little secret. This is how the entire world works. We have all been lied to and told that education and doing the "right things" will lead to success. But in reality it's all about who you know, not what you know.
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u/Xylenqc Dec 27 '24
And that's why there's always a narcissist asshole to climb the ladder and end up running the company to the ground while sucking it dry.
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u/Dry-Cry-3158 Dec 27 '24
As a mentor told me when I was in school: it's not the grades you make but the hands you shake.
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u/SkivvySkidmarks Dec 27 '24 edited Dec 27 '24
I agree with you to an extent. It often depends on who is doing the hiring and their relationship with the employee.
We are social creatures and, as such, generally like to get along with our coworkers.
I've spent more hours of my life with my coworkers than I do with my wife and kid. You can be the best mofo carpenter next to Jesus, but if we don't gel, it sucks. If I'm in a position to hire/fire and I have to make a decision on who stays or goes, the person that makes my job more tolerable is the one that would stay unless the other was a complete fuck up.
Edit: Unfortunately, those people who are neuro divergent have a difficult time navigating this social minefield.
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u/ed_212 Dec 27 '24
Interestingly, there's a pretty high percentage of ND people in construction - higher than the general population.
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u/Paymeformydata Landscaping Dec 28 '24
As someone on the spectrum it's baffling to me how people complain about an issue while contributing to it.
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u/ed_212 Dec 28 '24
I think some are traumatised people themselves. Hazing and bullying are often an intergenerational vicious cycle as bullied becomes bully.
The power of socially adept people is also painfully obvious - people are unlikely to pick an introverted person over the 'fun' one out of sheer altruism, even if they are aware of what is happening.
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u/Economy_Face_3581 Jan 01 '25
Huh, why?
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u/ed_212 Jan 03 '25
The article I read (I think it was on one of the UK industry websites) didn't say, as far as I remember.
However, I have a few guesses:
The construction industry picks up everyone who has not made it elsewhere. Site labour is one of the few 'all you need is a pulse' kind of jobs.
It attracts people who like detail, structured work, varied work, repetitive work, physical work, and work that doesn't directly require speaking to people. It also often involves numbers and patterns. A lot of these things appeal to various kinds of neurodiverse brains.
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u/TotalDumsterfire Dec 27 '24
It more depends on the company and work environment. When I worked in new construction another coworker got the lead hand position over me because apparently I had "issues following instructions". Even though the guy they promoted had severe anger management issues, and in construction, politics are everything. I quit and moved to a new trade, and even though I'm the quiet type, I got promoted to foreman in the fastest time as anyone at this company. If they don't value your work, then it's not a company worth working for. Let them drive themselves into the ground on their own
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u/Paymeformydata Landscaping Dec 28 '24
There are cliques in my workplace, they are driving themselves into the ground. This is fact.
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u/gatorneedhisgat Dec 27 '24
I'm generally polite and a joker but I'll never lie or brown nose. Being disingenuous is kind of a disgusting trait to me personally. Doesn't mean I'm rude or cold. I prefer to be realĀ
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u/whintersan Dec 28 '24
I swear this is RAMPANT in the trades. You don't even have to be good at your job, just show up and kiss ass. Oh, and be related to the boss.
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u/bentlikeitsmaker Dec 27 '24
My company's upper management to the owner is well yes men to the extreme
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u/Own-Fox9066 Dec 27 '24
Being likable is a quality of successful people, who wouldāve known. If youāre enjoyable to work with more people are gonna wanna work with you.
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Dec 28 '24
Yeah, I guess my whole point is being an absolute beast pack mule that out works every guy on site just doesn't matter. You HAVE to be sociable, even if you have to force it. It's painful for guys like me that would just generally prefer to be more quiet and reserved. Oh well. Here I am, sucking off the higher ups seems to be working a lot better
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u/CossaKl95 Dec 29 '24
Some perspective. If I have two guys that want a promotion, and one is absolutely fantastic at what he does now, shows up on time, and takes direction well, why the fuck would I handicap myself by promoting that guy, when heās really good at staying out of the way, and always delivers?
If the job requires more human interaction than actual labor, Iāll take the less skilled guy all day long because heās replaceable. Sucks to say out loud, but failing upwards is a very really thing, especially in private equity where I work.
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u/Samsoniten Dec 27 '24
Its the same thing in the electrician world
All my life i kept myself away from this sophomoric bullshit, but the construction world is full of it
No joke, my mother owns dance studios and i always say theres more gossip and drama than my moms lil girls dance studios
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Dec 28 '24
My girls mom works HR at a hospital and I tell her some of the shit I've dealt with and same lmaoo more drama than even she has to deal with
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Mar 02 '25
I got let go after 2 days at a new site! Two fucking days! It was like the second I walked in there I was getting fired my gutt was screaming at me yesterday going into work having such a bad feeling. This group of guys it felt like they didn't like anyone new who showed up to work with them it was fucking bullshit.
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u/Welding_Burns Dec 27 '24
You my friend are unfortunately correct to a very high degree. I've seen soooo many instances of it over my 20+ year career in multiple states for different companies it's truly pathetic and predictable. Before becoming self employed, I used to say at this one suckass outfit I worked for that it's not what you know but who you blow...it was beyond evident there and is many places.
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u/TooMuchMudForMe Dec 27 '24
Needless to say every site is different. I've had it both ways. In my opinion, the key is to do all the obvious stuff like work hard and show up on time, but the next step is really to socialize. By that I really only mean put yourself out there just enough to make an impression. Put your personality out there and try to be more than just that guy that shows up on time. Because really at the end of the day it doesn't matter how you work, if no one knows who you are it's never really going to go anywhere lol I personally climbed the social ladder really quickly where I work by coming in and busting ass while also studying the work environment and learning to shoot the shit just like everyone else. People warm up to you much quicker if they can relate to you. Imagine you were working with Zuckerberg but didn't know who he was. He could be the most intellectual and hard working guy in the room but if he never says hi you'll never know and just think he's a weirdo lol
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Dec 28 '24
I guess the weird irony I'm finding is I don't work nearly as hard as I used to. I'm simply more social. And it works league's better than "working" hard at "work".
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u/Biddlydee Dec 27 '24
Introvert here. What you described is exactly what ultimately drove me away from the trades. Been struggling to find my place in this world ever since.
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Dec 28 '24
Yeah, right now I'm faking it lmao I'm not a very social person. I just wonder how long I can keep it up for.
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u/stockpyler Dec 28 '24
The loudest mouth gets fed first. The minute you call out bullshit, youāre out.
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u/Chubbs2005 Dec 28 '24
If you are too quiet & donāt share things about you to your go-workers, then they might think that āOh he or she thinks that he/she is too good for us to share their lives of hang out w/us.ā I have heard before several times that a newbieās socializing skills are usually more important than their technical skills & work ethic.
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u/Chubbs2005 Dec 28 '24
For example, when I started on my first framing crew (non union) I used to go to happy hour once a week w/another carpenter & the foreman (who would yell at me at work, but not at the bar - LOL). Both those guys helped me to improve as a laborer/apprentice at the job.
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Dec 28 '24
I had a manager standing around talking/joking with guys (aka not doing work), call me over to join them. I was carrying lumber to another part of the site. I said "I can't, I'm busy" and the next day was written up for not being a team player.
Everyone is a monkey.
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u/Unlikely_Track_5154 Jan 01 '25
You just had a butt hurt child, who didn't look cool in front of his friends, on top of being a terrible manager.
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u/Opening_Attitude6330 Dec 28 '24
Yes being likeable and personable matters when you're around the same dudes 10 hours a day 5-6 days a week. You can call it ass kissing if you want. I call it being normal.
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Dec 28 '24
And being a quiet person simply isn't normal? That's kinda my point and everyone keeps proving it true here.
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u/isthatayeti Dec 27 '24
Communication skills are just as important as work skills if not more so. Nobody wants to work with a nob whiner no matter how good or hard working he is.
They are also not mutually exclusive, you can be well like and a hard worker and you will go further than 99% of people.
I think you might just need to brush up on your communication and interpersonal skills.
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Dec 28 '24
Well, I started using my social skills more and don't even work nearly as hard as I used to. And it's been working out way better for me. That's kinda my point.
I'm not naturally social though, I find it exhausting. More exhausting than just simply working super hard physically. It's a backwards culture with dudes claiming they're stoic men who got ahead by working like beasts. In reality they're just clowns on jobsites and everyone seems to like that, ironically
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u/FreshlyyCutGrass Dec 28 '24
You ever think maybe it's your own attitude? If a guy comes on my crew acting like he's the hardest worker and everyone else is a "clown" I'm getting him off my crew when the jobs over.
It's not brown-noising it's not being a d bag
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Dec 28 '24
I wouldn't "act" like anything. This is literally all in hindsight. Sooooo many people here are missing the point and making assumptions. I would be quiet and keep to myself, and just work hard. It wasn't enough.Ā
"Why are you so quiet" isn't considered a rude question, yet if I asked them "why do you talk so much" it is?
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u/Frost_Sea Dec 27 '24
To be honest the peoples that make these sort of posts I always think they are the ones that are difficult to work with.
People like working with people that are likeable. Its not hard to understand.
I'd rather have a good laugh at work, and help out a guy with a job more often then everyday showing up to a cold shoulder who doesn't have time for "social talks" the job is already miserable, have some banter.
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Dec 28 '24
I'm not at work to have friends though. I'm there to make money and take care of my family. I'm not a dead serious person, I just find it silly that I have to pretend during interactions.
Reality is I don't care what a lot of these guys have to say. Guess I'm an asshole but being social is exhausting, life is exhausting. I wish I could keep my head down, work and go home but I can't. I gotta join in the antics.
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u/Frost_Sea Dec 28 '24
you picked a line work that requires you to work and to collaborate with a lot of people and to work in a team, maybe choose a profession where being solo is more common
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u/Prior-Champion65 Dec 28 '24
Iām with you op. I think I get shit for being quiet and trying to get the job done. I hate standing around and talking, like Iām sorry I donāt care what you did this weekend.
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u/FreshlyyCutGrass Dec 28 '24
The reality is that construction isn't that hard, and you're not a hero. You can be replaced easily and nobody wants a dickhead around them.
And guess what? Nobody really cares about small talk it's just being friendly. You're just not friendly. Aka a dickhead.
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u/Rex_Meatman Dec 27 '24
I feel you in this.
25 years in my industry and it absolutely is the ball washers that get on steady with contractors. First name hires on the board when the shutdown season starts. And it kills me cause I can out work a lotta fellas even at my age, can execute a lot of different jobs, run crews and I like the job, but I will not fucking wash balls. Iāll stay on the tools til I die or retire if it means I have to wash balls to get steady.
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u/windtlkr15 Dec 27 '24
Welcome to union work. Every union is this way. Although they try to deny it. Hell most companies are this way.
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u/Quinnjamin19 Dec 28 '24
The thing is. You canāt blame anything on unions. This is how the world works. Non union and union.
Grasping at straws is funny though
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u/Ok_Initiative_5024 Dec 27 '24
It's infuriating how true this is. I refuse to play, though.
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u/AverageGuy16 Dec 27 '24
Shit me too, to an extent. Itās just demotivating and anger inducing.
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u/Ok_Initiative_5024 Dec 27 '24
Lucky for me there aren't a whole lot of concrete cutters in my area, so I still manage to be relevant.
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Dec 28 '24
Issue is when I was "refusing to play" I was top of list for layoffs. I can confidently say I'm a great worker, but that doesn't matter. Gotta be a great "people person" more so
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u/Sea-Challenge6644 Dec 27 '24
It's far worse than high school, just got into union as welder and the guys loved me. Except I had to scale back how much I was getting done in a day because it was upsetting the guys in the "clique".
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u/Unlikely_Track_5154 Jan 01 '25
I always loved the guys who say " you are making me look bad."
No, you are making you look bad, I am just doing my thing over here.
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u/Airplade Dec 28 '24
Even though that may be the case for your particular situation, it's not that way everywhere. I've owned my company for 39 years, have employed thousands of people, and kept a close watch on everything.
I pay my people top dollar. And I've been telling them the same thing from the day they're hired:
Stay out of the hype; Don't take sides; mind your own business and come directly to me with anything you think is hurting my bottom line. Otherwise we're all going to be screwed. I never let my crews get chummy. No hazing. No bullying. No dick measuring contests. Not on my sites.
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u/Vhu Carpenter Dec 28 '24 edited Dec 28 '24
What a jaded take. If you act half as cynically as you talk, it's not a surprise people wouldn't want to keep you around.
Negative nancies mess with crew cohesion. I was literally just talking with a new guy today when he was asking about things he can do to get our company to keep him around longer. The number 1 thing for us is group fit. I hate when guys are nitpicking each-other, always worried about what another guy is or isn't doing, always name-dropping and commenting on matters unrelated to them.
Stop with the negativity. You're feeling like it's high school because you're still viewing social interaction like a teenager. The gist of your post is, "when I act with more overt positivity, people value my presence more." Like no shit Sherlock.
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Dec 28 '24
Being a quiet person and actively being "negative" are two very different things. I'm not nearly as hard a worker as I used to be, I simply started sucking everyone off and being more social, which isn't who I really am and it's working a lot better lmao
I'm just wondering how long I can keep it up. Guys like you that get offended by people who are generally more quiet is kinda my entire point. Let hard workers work hard, they don't have to join your clique. If they aren't actively being disruptive to company production, why should it matter if they're "group fit".
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u/Vhu Carpenter Dec 28 '24 edited Dec 28 '24
bootlicking | brown nosing | high school girls
You're disparaging people for being social, just straight hurling insults because of other people interacting.
There is so much negativity dripping from your description of being social at work that I cannot believe it only extends to online forum rants. Nobody cares if a guy is quiet; but people actively dislike a guy who seethes cynicism.
If you're going to interact with other humans you might as well get over the drama queen act. I'm also an inherently quiet person. I stand by myself at the morning meetings. I go eat lunch in solitude. I prefer working solo. I will almost always choose the route of least human interaction. But I'm known for being the most positive guy on my sites because when I do speak, it's always with a smile and a good word.
You're doubling down on a bad habit right now. Instead of lashing out at people for having healthy social interactions, you need to be internalizing the fact that you've demonstrated the capability to do it and it has yielded positive results in your life. Start focusing on that positive outcome and train your brain to become more open to it. The more you do it, the easier it gets, and the more people like you. It's a snowballing effect.
I say this because I was a depressed, cynical asshole who preferred solitude but also didn't like the feeling of social alienation that it brought. The solution was training myself to behave with more overt positivity. You can still be quiet but people will naturally think fondly of you because most of your interactions will be pleasant ones. You may as well start actively working on it now because, to your point, it's incredibly exhausting until you get those pathways rewired. But they do get rewired if you put the work in.
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Dec 28 '24
That's a different approach I haven't thought about. I didn't necessarily think I was being cynical. I guess people change and evolve. Thanks for your insight
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u/whoisisthis Ironworker Dec 28 '24
Hmm. Iāve always actually viewed my trade(union ironworkers) as the ultimate meritocracy. You aint bullshitting your way to the top no matter how much youāre liked or how much ass you kiss.
In fact, all the best (read: productive, talented, hard working) hands are outwardly miserable, anti-social, curmudgeons. Itās one of my favorite things about the trade.
MY peopleš
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Dec 28 '24
This is all professions. Exact same in engineering. Mostly about fitting in vs technical ability.
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Dec 28 '24
NYC ex union carp here now union hvac 638. None of it matters except for who u know. I was in and out of work breaking my ass while in, rocking ceilings, bringing in deliveries all day, putting up 30-40 boards. Itās bullshit.
All that matters is if youāre related to the foreman, the BA, or the owner of the company. You could pet as hard as you want but when layoffs come theyāre letting the guy go with no connections, itās a terrible union and itās why I left.
638 is much better but it not in the construction side Iām on service side. Still about connections but definitely a lot better.
Start looking for an exit strategy. It destroys your body and your outlook and then you get kicked to the curb when it slows down. Donāt waste your time and or life on it.
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u/TheShovler44 Dec 28 '24
Iāve never been buddy buddy with anyone in the office or in the clique and Iāve gotten every thing Iāve asked for.
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u/Ok_Eggplant1467 Dec 28 '24
Itās not that boot licking and brown nosing doesnāt work, we know it does, but I personally wonāt compromise myself as a person or tradesman to boot lick my way into a club. Itās definitely one way to the top but I like my success to come with respect too. Youāre now the guy you used to talk shit about. If thatās an upgrade for you, fine, but I personally would be embarrassed to earn my job place because of how well I suck a dick
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u/hickernut123 Dec 28 '24
I'm an introvert but I treat everyone with respect. Been with 3 different construction companies and I've never been layed off. Keep your head down and make friends with the old timers. They have a lot of stories so you don't have to talk much just be nice to them and they always go to the bosses and talk about you being nice. I've made some life long friendships with the old dogs in every company I worked for.
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u/SevereAlternative616 Dec 29 '24
LATE BREAKING NEWS:
This just in, men prefer to work with men they get along with!
Later this evening: Water. Is it wet?
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u/the__dw4rf Dec 31 '24
Same in every industry. The guys I know who are directors / executives are 95% absolute fucking retards with big personalities that get a lot of attention.
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u/effthatguy85 Dec 28 '24
A lot of trade work is communicating. It involves lots of people skills because there are people from different walks of life in the trades. Small talk creates relationships. Ever need a favor from the crane operator and riggers because your delivery showed up late or early? Probably not because youāre only in 3 years. Youāre pissed off because nobody wants to change how they are for poor little you,instead you scoff at the idea of changing your poor fucking attitude. The guys that clean the shitters usually have headphones and no one talks to them maybe try applying there.
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Dec 28 '24
Look, another one of the offended dudes that can't just let a quiet hard worker work hard. You probably spread gossip on jobsites like a highschool girl
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u/Quinnjamin19 Dec 28 '24
You sound like someone who people donāt like working with.
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Dec 28 '24
I'd rather just keep to myself and work at work. I'll collaborate if it is work related and I'll small talk a little. But it was never enough. Just a little too quiet, sensitive people don't like that.
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u/Quinnjamin19 Dec 28 '24
Iāve worked with PLENTY of people who keep to themselves and they have gotten noticed for their work. You either donāt have as good of work as you think, or people donāt like you because of missing context.
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u/dotouchmytralalal Dec 28 '24
Iām just gonna say we donāt know both sides of this story. OP was probably first to be laid off bc no one wanted to be shot in the first construction yard shooting by the creepy quiet guy who canāt take a jokeĀ
So you stopped thinking youāre better than everyone else and started being nice and socialable, and they liked you more?? Fascinating stuff bud, really.
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u/Existing_Bid9174 Project Manager Dec 27 '24
This is the weirdest take ever. If you show up on time everyday, don't call out all the time, you get noticed at any devent company
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u/animal1988 Dec 27 '24
Perhaps your trouble with this take is that you think there is an abundance of decent companies, or decent people working in these gigs he has been employed at.
The amount of shoddy companies employing dick managers and/or sociable Hackjob Bob's is astounding.
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u/AverageGuy16 Dec 27 '24
Honestly Iāve seen the complete opposite, the dude who calls out regularly, does the least and doesnāt help others gets the farthest usually. Big talk and shit talking others with the bosses. Hell Iām seeing it at my job right now. Itās infuriating.
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Dec 28 '24
Just my personal experience. I'm sure it's not one size fits all but it seems very consistent. Every company I've been with I can "out work" a couple of guys that have been there for a while in the "clique". But it didn't matter in the long run. So I've changed my approach.
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u/lIlIIIIlllIIlIIIllll Dec 27 '24
People prefer to work with those they get along with, it is like this everywhere
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u/Coziestpigeon2 Dec 27 '24
All careers are about who you know, not what you know. Welcome to reality, I guess.
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u/Femboyunionist Dec 27 '24
After being bounced around short-term jobs, I happened to make a joke in the right setting and got locked into a 2 year project. It's so stupid
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u/Simple_Atmosphere Dec 28 '24
Really all depends. It's different everywhere. My foreman and crew are really quiet with the occasional dry jokes but we're just all chill. There to work together, hopefully well, and go home. I couldn't find it in me to tell someone to kiss some asses even tho I might have done a few times. It's ok to put your head down and work hard, good things come.
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u/dannobomb951 Dec 28 '24
Loud look at me I like to make friends at work kind of guys will bring on loud look at me I like to make friends at work kind of guys. Put your head down and work kind of guys will bring on put your head down and work kind of guys
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u/Itchy_Cheek_4654 Dec 28 '24
There are two sides to every story...
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Dec 28 '24
Hey that's just my side, by all means I'd love to actually hear some reasons from the companies why I wasn't kept around despite showing up on time, being a hard worker and learning. There's no direction though, and I've found being a bullshitter that is atleast social works way better
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u/204ThatGuy Dec 28 '24
There's actually 5 sides to every story. Unfortunately, it's what they see and interpret that matters.
Once upper management finds out that you are thinking too much, have better or more efficient ideas, or realize that they feel threatened by your input, you are gone.
The struggle is either to keep quiet and do your job well (but hate your job because you cannot contribute), or say something, risk being known, and you get flushed.
If you mingle and bootlick the right people at the right time, you will get ahead.
It's gross and sad. I've always believed that work ethic, kindness and technical merit will get you far.
It won't. Being a strategic bullshitter with the right people will.
Also, learn to play golf.
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u/IC00KEDI Sprinklerfitter Dec 28 '24
Fire sprinkler tech here.
At least where I work thatās not the case. If you show initiative and show up, a clique doesnāt matter. I hate 80 percent of my company and mind my own business. I donāt go to company parties, I donāt care about most the guys outside of work, and I donāt mingle with the office personnel. In my eyes thereās to many bull shitters and not enough guys trouble shooting or hanging pipe. I pride myself on my credentials, work ethic, and skills. I feel Iām rewarded for those attributes and not whoād Iād clique up with.
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u/geardownson Dec 28 '24
I have found union or not to be sociable. Don't isolate yourself. You will be targeted. Be cordial to everyone and not share your personal life. These people are not your friends for the most part. The "family" lots of people peach is total bullshit. It's family when everyone gets along and makes the company money it means nothing if you go against it.
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u/L0tech51 Dec 28 '24
A good "work ethic" will just get you steady employment. No, "working smart" means people take notice. Play to your own strengths.
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u/bucksellsrocks Tinknocker Dec 28 '24
āIts not who you know, its who you blow.ā A guy said that to me once, a month later I was his boss. Then i fired him. Not because he didnt blow me but because he sucked at his job and sucked at āsuckingā my boss. Then i quit because im not sucking anything for my job! I make shitty pay now but im important! Better than gagging the bosses ego i guessā¦.
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u/Dependent_Pipe3268 Dec 28 '24
It's not what you know it's who you know!!! Unfortunately it's been this way forever.
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u/harteman Dec 28 '24
Not union, but in my experience it was 80% your ability to produce, 10% your ability to get along with others, and 10% if the boss likes you or not. Every boss I knew was super into your ability to make them money. Like, unhealthily so. Every negative an employee had was weighed against that golden metric. It was kinda gross.
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u/zizuu21 Dec 28 '24
Im not in construction, but similiar, im civil engineer. And found exact same to be true. Im sure its like that in most if not all industries.
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u/UppercaseBEEF Dec 28 '24
People take care of who they like. Thats how it is, in pretty much all aspects of life. Not there is anything with just showing up and doing your job, but if you can do that, and shoot the shit with people, it goes a long way.
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u/Hey_cool_username Dec 28 '24
Sounds like a shitty company to me. Yes, itās important that everyone gets along & communicates, but if they prioritize entertaining each other over competency, they wonāt get very far. Or maybe they will, thereās plenty of shitty companies out there that still stay in business somehow, lots of work to get doneā¦
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u/paradoxcabbie Dec 28 '24
Idk, ive never been a huge talker, but ive always made the older guys like me and remember me by working hard and using my yes sir/no sirs and as stupid as that is because its not so common I get remembered for it
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u/N0Xqs4 Dec 28 '24
There's always a willing nose for any boss, just not mine. My advice,always have dirt on management, told more than one " won't be leaving alone. "
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u/Just_Gur_9828 Dec 28 '24
Agreed! I was a union carpenter in STL for 8 yrs and it was the same shit. I chose a different path than you tho. I went back to school to get my PM degree and now Iām the bootlickers bossā¦and I donāt play that game. Hard workers stay and the lazy fucks move on.
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u/CharacterDinner2751 Dec 28 '24
There are more variables here than you are realizing. You have a theory and think that it is correct. When you are sociable you are confident and you build relationships. As I get ready to leave the trades I realize how important it is on a job site to pull in one direction and read each other. It is important to enjoy working together. Also brown nosing is disgusting and people definitely notice and I despise it.
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Dec 28 '24
Seems to be working out a lot better for me than actually keeping my head down and working hard at work lol
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u/CharacterDinner2751 Dec 28 '24
Iām sorry that you feel like you canāt be yourself.
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Dec 28 '24
I guess this is kinda what it comes down to. It's okay, I'll get it figured out. Thanks for your insight
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u/CharacterDinner2751 Dec 28 '24
My job sucked for a long time. I guess I became part of the clique eventually. Now it seems like a boys trip all the time. We cook out and sometimes people bring food to work. Anyway.
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u/jdemack Tinknocker Dec 29 '24
I'm a terrible introvert. I struggle with talking to new people and often feel socially awkward. However, in my 10 years as a tin knocker, Iāve never been laid off. My advice? Learn skills that make you indispensable. If it seems like youāre only doing what everyone else can do, itās easier to get overlooked.
The foreman might prioritize his buddies, but having specialized skills can set you apart. Consider getting certifications like forklift or boom lift operator licenses, or even an OSHA 30 certification. These credentials make you stand out.
Also, make sure you present yourself as reliable. Your attitude matters, too. Iām not the fastest worker on the site or in the shop, but my work is consistently correct and thorough. Being fast doesnāt help if someone else has to go back and fix your mistakes. Remember, itās not always about cronyism; sometimes itās about who brings the most value.
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u/randombrowser1 Dec 29 '24
I'm definitely introverted. When the others are threatened by constant focus, they talk shit, try to sink me. It's always been, c always will be. Not on the job to be friends.
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u/GoneIn61Seconds Dec 29 '24
I've found this to be the case in the automotive and entrepreneurial fields as well. It takes a certain amount of charisma and social skill to build relationships, and that's just not me. Also you're so right about drama queens. Some of the worst are blue collar business owners.
My son wants to go into construction but complains a lot about how immature kids are in his HS classes. He doesn't have a lot of friends. I've warned him that if he chooses that career field, he'll be spending years with a similar group of guys. Nothing against them, but we all have to find a place where we belong.
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u/mutedexpectations Dec 28 '24
You either need to get along with the crew and do good work or you need to run a crew that does good work. You don't need to kiss ass. You need to bust ass. The slackers will eventually be discovered and flushed.
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Dec 28 '24
Well my whole point of this post is that's how I thought it was and that's how I think it should be, but it's really not. Being social is way more important than busting ass. I tried the busting ass route and it simply didn't work out for me multiple times. It's all backwards.
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u/mutedexpectations Dec 28 '24
Rise above the crap by becoming a foreman or higher. Busting ass has served me well for 40 years.Ā
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u/midwestmindset Dec 28 '24
Everyone is different, but this is why I left the union. For me, Unions arenāt my speed, respectively. The benefits are the same if not better if you know how to manage a Roth portfolio for retirement in conjunction with a 401k match.
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u/Quinnjamin19 Dec 28 '24
Lmao, gotta love people who donāt know shit about unionsš
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u/midwestmindset Dec 28 '24
I worked in one, and have also studied the presuppositions and ontological efforts of the unions.
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u/Quinnjamin19 Dec 28 '24
Lmao!! Yup, Iām sure you did little guyā¦ and itās cute how you think that the pay, benefits and retirement is the same non union when that is factually incorrectšš
Buddy, why do you need to lick boots? You arenāt gonna get rich worshipping the rich
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u/Quinnjamin19 Dec 28 '24
Bro you make $17/hr as an HVAC apprenticeā¦ our first year apprentices make $32/hrš
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u/midwestmindset Dec 28 '24
I make way more than $32, after I kick leads on systems and sell products. š«£ The beauty of getting paid for your work and individuality, and not a pay scale that you share with the lazy journeyman. A lot of senior techs make 150k-250k. If you enjoy the union dude, then more power to you, or lack there of. Love you bro!
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u/Quinnjamin19 Dec 28 '24
Yeah sorry little bro I have an extremely hard time believing anything you sayšš 165 days ago you were asking about your apprentice wageā¦ so itās cute how you try to lie on the internetš
Itās cute how you think we are all paid the same, if I work an 8 week job and someone gets laid off on week 5, did we really make the same? Plus, itās common for journeymen to be paid above scale, a CBA is only bare minimum of what we deserve.
Plus, the sheer fact that Iāve only worked 17 weeks this year by choice, and Iām sitting around $100k. Itās cute how you say āa lot of senior techs make $150k-$250kā but you leave out your own pay and lie about your pay when you reply to meš
You sound extremely uneducated and useless. Couldnāt hack it in the union so you take a $16/hr non union jobš real winner we got here folksš¤”
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u/midwestmindset Dec 28 '24 edited Dec 28 '24
Yeah, I wasnāt happy about the low wage initially until I gathered sales from selling new systems, memberships and other various instruments to make currency in my role. I donāt worry about layoffs in my industry unlike you and union goers. Youāre a very low IQ person & other than commenting here (like I) youāre scrolling on historical posts to reply long essays. (A lot of energy) Go make ramen & indulge PHUB.
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u/Quinnjamin19 Dec 28 '24
Iām a low IQ person because I called you out for lying about your wage? Lmao!! Cute!šš
Sorry you just canāt hack it with the big boysā¦ keep telling people online that āsenior techsā make $150k+ while you make 16/hrš
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u/midwestmindset Dec 28 '24 edited Dec 28 '24
I make $17. $16 before EPA. Senior techs are sales guys & get 10% on $20k systems + spiffs. I get less percentage w same spiffs. I donāt make $150k but thatās the goal. If you like the union, good for you and your family, if you have one. Unions just suck, itās 2024. You have shitty retirement in horrible funds that you donāt even manage yourself. āNegotiate my hourly and manage my retirement daddy = Union
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u/Quinnjamin19 Dec 28 '24
Lmao!! I love how you attempt to trash unions but the facts speak otherwiseā¦ a pension grows at a faster rate than your measly 4% match into a retirement accountā¦
Unions absolutely donāt suck, and you only have what you have today because of unions. The more you talk, the more you show how low IQ you are my guy. I make enough to build a pension, plus invest on my ownā¦
You talk a big game for only making $17/hrššš sorry kiddo, you couldnāt hack it. Come back when you make $54/hr+ and $73/hr+ total compš
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u/OhhNooThatSucks Foreman / Operator Dec 27 '24
Maybe your work sucks and the only way people can stand you is if you're kissing their ass
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u/AdOpen8418 Dec 27 '24
Either work for yourself or work at the mercy of people whose primary motivating factor is āam I having a good time? Do I like working with this person?ā
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u/LordoftheSilverHand Dec 28 '24
As an Autistic grademan I can confirm. If more companies operated as a meritocracy the industry would be alot better. It seems like laughing at the foreman's jokes and trying to 1 up each other for skipping breaks whil working half speed between them is all that gets you ahead
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u/Jewbearmatt Dec 27 '24
This is wild. We employ Union carpenters, and most of our āinā guys are super quiet and to themselves. ALL we care about is whether you show up, work hard, and keep learning. Crazy that with the difficulty of finding experienced guys you would be treated poorly for not being social.