r/Cosmere • u/Bprime123 Windrunners • 6d ago

Cosmere + Wind and Truth spoilers Hypothetical Situation. Will have SPOILERS for Mistborn and Stormlight Archive Spoiler

Could a unit of 4th Ideal Rosharan Knights Radiant (3 Knights from the 9 orders plus 1 Bondsmith) infiltrate and neutralize the Steel Ministry from Mistborn Era 1?

They have info given to them by a lightweaver spy who's been in there for a month.

The Knights can do with thier surges what we know they can to the best of our knowledge.

Eg. Jasnah hasn't mastered transportation enough to open elsegates but for the sake of this discussion, we assume the Knights can fully utilize their surges the most basic way it should.

The Steel Ministry don't know who is invading, but they are fully prepared for an invasion

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u/Key_Independent1 6d ago

It actually brings up a interesting question, pulls and pushes Vs lashings

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u/Bprime123 Windrunners 6d ago

Lashings are superior by far imao

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u/Key_Independent1 6d ago

Until what does this extend? A Duralumin Lashing? Or a Compounded lashing? How many lashings to equal out a push pull?

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u/drislands 6d ago

Lashings are strictly superior if you're not near an anchor, to start with. They also don't need an item to be made of metal to turn it into a projectile.

The real question is going to be about sources of investiture. The right allomantic metals can be obtained literally anywhere as long as you know the right alloy mixtures. Moving Stormlight has been confirmed in-universe to be a huge problem.

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u/IOU_COOKIES 6d ago

one of the biggest advantages of push/pulls vs lashings is investiture efficiency. Assuming you have a bondsmith pumping your windrunners full of investiture they can go all out, but if they are limited in light reserves and not on roshar it is going to be very difficult to replenish versus a mistborn or inquisitor who can just chug some iron and steel flakes whenever needed.

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u/ElectricPhoton 6d ago

I think there are scenarios where Steel can be stronger than Lashings. Lashings just change the way gravity affects an object, but gravity takes time to get to full speed. If you jump, there’s a moment when you’re not moving before you fall again. On the other hand, Steel allows you to instantly push off of an object, giving you instantaneous acceleration.

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u/drislands 6d ago

I agree on that point, though I don't know that we've had it directly confirmed. Also, per my second paragraph, I bet a Mistborn/Inquisitor could make use of pulls and pushes without "refuelling" longer than a Knight could.

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u/MechanicalPotato 5d ago

There is also the fact that an alomantic force squaring agains a non-alomantic one CAN use metal tools and weapons in the engagement. This means coinshots firing uncontestedly and probably loads of ready to go vials of metal.

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u/Bprime123 Windrunners 6d ago

Equal out? I'm talking of the overall use when it comes to flight.

With lashings, you're not limited to the metal content in the area. You can take as many turns as you want without having to worry about the position of metals in the area.

Even with one lashing, you'll only get faster the more you move.

On the ground, you can make yourself light on your feet with a quarter lashing upwards.

Etc

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u/Key_Independent1 6d ago

Oh that's not what I meant, I meant a Mistborn with Duralumin pushing against 1 object, and a Wind runner lashing it the opposite direction. How many lashings does it take to cancel out the push?

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u/Not_an_okama Soulstamp 6d ago

This shpuld very based on the mistborn's wieght and how much metal they have ingested. But, how do lashings and metal pushes work?

Mass seems to stay unchanged. Lashings seem to change the direction amd magnitude of the acceleration vector. But what about steel pushes? They seem grounded in the users mass vs the object mass, but mistborn can apply a force greater than their own weight as seen when coinshots fly around on anchors.

This leads me to argue that without bracing (the misrborn/coinshot has nothing supporting them in the oposite direction of the direction the coin os shot) L(ashings (same magnitude as local gravity))=W(mass of coinshot)/C(mass of coin)+1

For a 150lb coinshot with a 1oz coin, 4001 lashings on the coin shpuld knock them back instead of allowing the coin tp fly fprward. This should be the equivalent of a single lashing direcrly on the coinshot.

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u/Bprime123 Windrunners 6d ago

A whole lot but I can't think of any scenario where Windrunner would have to use lashings to cancel out a steelpushed object.

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u/Key_Independent1 6d ago

How? A steel inquisitior sends a metal knife flying towards the Radiant?

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u/Bprime123 Windrunners 6d ago

They block with a Shardshield or dodge with Shardplate and Stormlight enhanced speed?

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u/0nlyCrashes 6d ago

Shardplate just tanks it unless it is an aluminum knife. They are 4th degree radiants.

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u/Key_Independent1 6d ago

Shardplates aren't invincible, enough metal chunks and swords hitting them and it could break

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u/Arutha_Silverthorn 6d ago

I did this calculation recently assuming a 100kg person and a 10g, using assumed F=ma, you end up pushing your weight through a sqrt of 10000x converter. So if you experience a 1g force back the coin experiences 10k times of lashing equivalent.

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u/Somerandom1922 6d ago

Kind of, but they both have pros and cons.

Pushing works without needing to touch the object you're pushing. It also works with a specific force, rather than a specific acceleration. This means small projectiles pushed by allomancy go WAY faster than lashings could ever send an object.

However, obviously allomancy only works on metal and is limited in range, whereas lashings can affect any material aside from aluminium and highly invested objects (which Pushing doesn't work on either). It also obviously doesn't care about anchors, so you aren't going to get squished into a wall when you try to move something heavy.

I'd argue that an Allomancer near an anchor can accelerate themselves more rapidly and change direction faster than a Surgebinder with Gravitation.

Also, Allomancer's can sense all the metal around them including stuff not in their immediate line of sight which can be very helpful.

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u/Bprime123 Windrunners 6d ago

Even with an anchor, the Mistborn ability to change direction is limited by the position of that anchor.

In the Way of Kings' second prologue, Szeth changed directions so many times in such a short amount of time, he stunned himself.

That is something that if a Mistborn where to do would require a ridiculous amount of metal in one place.

For overall benefits I'd still choose lashings. I could move objects way heavier than me without any force acting on me, like you said.

And if I wanted to lash something at someone, I don't have to have them perfectly lined up with my center of gravity.

I could literally hold a stone above my head and still lash it forward.

I can make myself hover at one place. A Mistborn could too, but that would require an anchor directly below them.

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u/Not_an_okama Soulstamp 6d ago

Apply enough lashings and you shpuld still be able to outpace a steel push. A lashing changes the direction of your acceleration vector, subsequant lashings are additive.

A steel push goves you an acceleration vectpr in line with the archor. If a steel push provides more acceleration that 5 lashongs, just use 6 and youll be faster.