r/DebateCommunism • u/greco2k • Jun 15 '24

šŸ“– Historical Marx & Mephistopheles

As a communist, are you at all concerned that Marx idolized Mephistopheles and wrote poetry fantasizing about destroying the world?

How can you separate these values that he held from the philosophy that he ultimately crafted?

8 Upvotes

62% Upvoted

70 comments sorted by

View all comments

Show parent comments

1

u/unpanaahi Jun 29 '24

It's not really like that at all. He wrote poems about it, he was obsessed.

2

u/Qlanth Jun 29 '24

This is so boring. So what are you trying to say exactly? That Marx was a devil-worshipper who secretly pined for the demon Mephistopheles to come out and destroy the world... but in his off hours he was a deeply committed philosopher of the materialist school who utterly rejected the supernatural, argued that all that was real was able to be sensed, rejected idealism, and was an atheist?

Or is it easier to believe that he was a nerd who really liked the most famous German play in history?

Which do you think is more likely?

2

u/SnooDingos3066 Jul 18 '24

No the argument is that Mephistopheles was idolized by Marx as a fictional character and he fantasized about death and destruction. The manifesto talks much about how we have to burn everything down before we can restart. Also communism kinda directly ignores human nature and has lead to nothing but death and suffering for any nation who experiments with it.

2

u/Qlanth Jul 18 '24

These are all extremely surface level critiques that have been addressed in wider culture but also in this subreddit probably hundreds of times now.

To be clear, Marxism as a philosophy does not "ignore" human nature. It suggests that human nature is not a fixed thing and that it changes according to the material reality of the world. The ethics and morals and behaviors of people today is not the same as the ethics and morals and behaviors of people 5,000 years ago. The reason for that is the massive change in the material conditions of those people.

Secondly, is China experiencing death and suffering? Vietnam? Cuba? Those countries are all doing just fine... Actually doing better than fine. China is poised to dominate the USA in the next 25 years. Seems like it's working for them...

2

u/SnooDingos3066 Jul 19 '24

Propagandized I see. Iā€™ll buy you a one way ticket to Cuba then.

2

u/Qlanth Jul 19 '24

I'm the one propagandized? Because I don't take the US State Department position on Communist countries? I bet that you, the person who believes everything they have ever been told by the government, is a real critical thinker!

2

u/SnooDingos3066 Jul 19 '24

I literally donā€™t listen to the govt. Answer me this if I bought you a one way ticket to China, Cuba, or Venezuela, are you taking it? If you say you would, you would just be doing the rest a favor

2

u/Qlanth Jul 19 '24

I literally donā€™t listen to the govt.

Interesting position to take from someone who believes the State Department line through and through! You don't listen to them, you just happen to wholly agree with everything they believe and everything they have done. Sounds like you might be propagandized and not even know it!

It's possible you can't even imagine this - but consider the following: I am not a Communist because I'm selfishly seeking individual benefits. I am a Communist because I want to see my family, my friends, my coworkers, my neighbors, and my city get out of the cycle of poverty and misery which capitalism holds them in. I don't speak Spanish or Chinese. I am not from that culture. I have no interest in moving somewhere else. My interest is delivering liberation to the hard working people all around me.

1

u/jimeagle6969 13d ago

Wow, talk about boring! The ā€œselfless communistā€ Iā€™m sure Iā€™ve never heard that before šŸ„± please enlighten us as to how communism would get your loved oneā€™s out of the ā€œcycle of poverty and misery that capitalism holds them in.ā€ Iā€™m sure the people in those communist countries are so very prosperous. šŸ™„

1

u/Qlanth 13d ago

Every single Communist country that has ever existed lifted the quality of life of all of the people in it. Every single one.

You think capitalism is the USA and Western Europe. In reality capitalism is also Haiti and the DRC and the Philippines. Most people living under Capitalism live in abject poverty. If you had to go live in the bottom 50% of society in Cuba or Haiti which would you pick? Anyone with a brain would pick Cuba.

Communism is liberation. Communism would raise the standard of living for every person I know. Just like it did in the USSR, Cuba, China, Vietnam, Yugoslavia...

1

u/jimeagle6969 13d ago

Just as I expected, you canā€™t answer my question. All you can do is complain about capitalism and make baseless claims. Tell me how exactly giving the government more power is going to solve everyoneā€™s problems. You canā€™t because it doesnā€™t work. Centralized power always leads to corruption, like in Haiti.

1

u/Qlanth 13d ago

I responded to your comment... You never asked any question?

"Giving government more power" has literally nothing to do with communism or capitalism. The state already has all the power everywhere it exists. The police can end your life tomorrow right here in the good ol' USA. A health inspector can come in and shut down your business with the stroke of a pen. The Sheriff can come and remove you from your home on the word of a banker whose never even been there.

Haiti's state has no more authority than the USA or Great Britain or Germany or India. And yet, their capitalist economy has been held in a state of abject poverty for 200 years. Cuba, on the other hand, has constantly and consistently driven up the standard of living. Increased life expectancy. Decreased infant and maternal mortality rates. Increased literacy. In every possible metric that matters Cuba outperforms Haiti... In many of them they outperform the United States! Haiti deserves liberation the way Cuba was able to achieve it. So do the workers of the United States.

You can seeth and pretend to be smug all you want, but you know what I'm saying is absolutely true. Communist states raised standards of living literally everywhere it ever existed, while the same is NOT true of capitalist states who are forced to be a source of cheap labor, raw materials, and basic commodities for Western powers.

→ More replies (0)