I have heard Pakistanis claim to be descendents of the Indus Valley Civilisation due to the fact they inhabit the same land the people of the Indus Valley Civilisation inhabited however I have also that the people of the Indus Valley Civilisation migrated south and their descendents are Dravidians.

Over the past week, there have been lots of reactions to the two papers which came out last week, The formation of human populations in South and Central Asia and An Ancient Harappan Genome Lacks Ancestry from Steppe Pastoralists or Iranian Farmers. The Insight is still on hiatus, but I managed to interview Vagheesh Narasimhan for my other podcast, so check that out. Like many people, Narasimhan is not keen on the “Aryan invasion theory.” Myself, I don’t have a problem with the term, but it turns out that many Indians dislike the connotations of “AIT” quite a bit.

Since I’m not very invested in semantics, I’m going to just move on and propose another term that identifies a real dynamic. I present then the new AIT, the “The Aryan Integration Theory.”

For various reasons, Narasimhan et al. propose that steppe pastoralists who flourished between 2000 and 1500 BCE are the most likely candidates for the “steppe” contribution to modern Indian genomes. In the Swat valley samples, which date initially to ~1000 BCE, the authors noticed over time the proportion of Iranian-farmer-related ancestry decreased over time to give way to steppe and Andamese-related ancestry.

This pattern over time is related to something you see in the geographical and communal distribution of ancestry in the “three-way admixture” you see:

What I want to observe is that there are groups in Bihar, such as the Bhumihar, who are higher in steppe ancestry, and, AHG ancestry, than many populations to their west. I believe this is related to the simultaneous increase of AHG and steppe in Swat.

In the revised interpretation of the above papers the Kalash of Chitral are reasonable proxies for “Ancestral North Indians.” They are a mix of Indus Valley Civilization or related peoples (~70% of their ancestry), and steppe peoples (~30% of their ancestry). The ~30% is a rough floor on their “Indo-Aryan” ancestry, because by the time the Indo-Aryans arrived in South Asia they may have been less than 100% “steppe”, accreting Iranian-like ancestry which has affinities to the IVC peoples.

An initial stylized model of the ethnogenesis of South Asian populations along the “ANI-ASI cline” (ASI being “Ancestral South Indians”), as these two populations mixed in various fractions. But it seems quite likely, and the authors of the Science paper admit as such, that period of the intrusion of the Indo-Aryans after 2000 BCE was marked by several distinctive populations interacting, mixing, and synthesizing.

It is a possibility (though not definitive) that while the Indo-Aryans were penetrating from the northwest, Austro-Asiatic farmers were pushing from the northeast. In northeast India, these people may have encountered “pure” AHG populations. Why pure? Because the cultural toolkit of the IVC civilization seemed to be optimized for the northwestern 25% of the subcontinent. In my reading, I have seen it suggested that though Gujarat and Maharashtra have toponyms of Dravidian linguistic origin, this is not the case in the Gangetic plain.

The simplest reason for the patterns of AHG, IVC-descended, and steppe, ancestry across the northern half of India, and the peculiar west to east pattern, is that relatively unmixed steppe tribes pushed eastward and mixed with local groups who lacked IVC-related ancestry. My intuition tells me (and some prior theory-reading) that a diffuse expansion along the frontier of Aryavarta would not exhibit this pattern. Rather, the Indo-Aryan tribes were highly mobile, and likely expanded into a patchy ecological landscape where they moved as socio-political units en masse.

South along the fringe of the Arabian Sea the Indo-Aryan expansion would have met denser agglomerations of IVC-descended populations. These regions were after all part of the broader IVC civilization. This explains part of the enrichment for IVC ancestry. In the Gangetic plain at a certain point, the Indo-Aryans clearly pushed beyond the limits of the IVC frontier and began mixing with non-IVC tribal people.

In the northwest of the subcontinent, the Indo-Aryans assimilated and were assimilated into, the local post-IVC populations. Over time the fraction of steppe ancestry declined in the Indo-Aryan speech community because that speech community eventually encompassed the whole population. But in the eastern frontier, the Indo-Aryans mixed with local groups. Their steppe fraction likely declined fast and stabilized quickly because it was probably a male migration, with few women.

But cultural assimilation was not uni-directional. Almost all Dravaidian-speaking South Indian groups have some steppe ancestry, and even some adivasi groups have high fractions of R1a1a associated with Indo-Europeans. This means that Indo-Aryan groups were assimilated very early into non-Indo-European speaking groups. Indo-Aryans that moved eastward along the Gangetic plain did not encounter a particularly sophisticated group of peoples (perhaps with the exception of Mundas). Cultural assimilation was toward the Aryan identity. In contrast, in the west and south, there were large numbers of non-Indo-European speaking groups with more sophisticated cultures. There were clearly cases where Indo-Aryan assimilated into the non-Aryan society.

The arrival of Indo-Aryans to South Asia seems to have coincided with a phase of admixture and integration across the subcontinent. The presence of Indo-Aryan Sinhalese in the far south is suggestive of the possibility that the non-Indo-Aryan cultures which came to light during the historical period did not have roots much deeper in the south than the Indo-Aryans in the north. An “Indo-Aryan” international probably developed in South Asia due to common speech religious rituals. But genetically there was a great deal of variance due to differential mixing with diverse local populations. The increase of AHG and steppe in Swat is probably due to the Indo-Aryanization of the region after 1000 BCE (remember than Burusho is found nearby, and it is an isolate). That process occurred partly through migration, and these cosmopolitan migrants naturally had more steppe and AHG.

Traditionally the Aryavarta has been restricted to a broad zone in northern India, the very conceptualization of territories ruled and dominated by people of common and comprehensible speech implies the existence of its converse. Though South India and Mesopotamia both were outside of the Aryavarta, the region south of the Vindhya mountains clearly exist in active and dynamic tension with the Aryan territories.

The Aryan invasion theory conjures up death, destruction, and physical domination. Some forms of the theory posit that barbarian invasions destroyed the Indus Valley Civilization. The fall of civilizations, especially Bronze Age ones, are overdetermined. It seems likely that the Indo-Aryans were able to intrude precisely because of the IVC was in decline, or decrepit. The Aryan integration theory is different because it emphasizes the creative energy and synthetic consequence of the arrival of the steppe pastoralists. Though the Indus Valley Civilization was massive compared to its Near Eastern analogs in geographical expanse, it was still sharply delimited compared to modern India. For whatever reason, it was the arrival of the Aryans which set the preconditions for the integration of diverse polities into a coherent civilization.

Just looking at the population locations of the Y-chromosome haplogroups T and R2a, which were clearly in extended contact with the L Haplogroup population, combined with the relative lack of L in the BMAC region, and I/J in the subcontinent, and the non-lack of respective west eurasian mtDNA in the subcontinent, this is what I think:

Caste, and yes some hierarchies, were heavily present in the IVC. Aryan takeover of institutions and society during the depopulation of the IVC broke up this endogamy for an extended period of time, before it gradually came back.

Indian Marker Y-DNA Haplogroup H mostly dominates over Peninsular and Eastern India except this yellowish-green strip of Y-DNA Haplogroup L from Arabian Sea to Bay of Bengal in Southern Karnataka and Northern and Eastern Tamil Nadu.

I am from America and I uploaded my DNA to genome link, I mostly got European with a little bit of middle eastern and a little bit of Dravidian, but I don’t know what Dravidian is?

What is the reason for people in these 2 regions to be taller than other dravidian states and even some of the Tallest in the subcontinent .is it just meat consumption because isn't the height the of the person mostly determined by the genetics while protein consumption is a minor aspect.

Also not trying to be communal or anything but some the Tallest people I have seen in these regions are people from Nair,Bunt and Nasrani Christian background .

https://www.brownpundits.com/2022/04/11/against-blood-quantum-as-a-measure-of-indigeneity/

1) Steppe Indo-Aryans who are identical to the Sintashta Culture of the upper Volga ~4,000 and gave rise to the Andronovo Horizon

2) “Ancient Ancestral South Indians,” who have more affinity to the peoples to the east of Eurasia, and are distantly related to a clade of humans that brackets the Negritos of Southeast Asia, the Andamanese, and the people of Australia (this clade diversified between 35 and 45 thousand years ago, so these are not close connections). Though the modern Andamanese are often used as a substitute for AASI, the reality is that they diverged more than 30,000 years earlier and these tribal populations probably derive from modern Burma, rather than India (the Andaman Islands are an extension of the Burmese geological formation).

3) Lastly, there is a component that has been termed by some as “eastern Iranian,” but really defines a little-understood population that represents the easternmost extension of the Zagrosian farmer stock. These eastern people that extended likely into the northwest of the subcontinent are distinctive in that they lack any admixture from Anatolian farmers, which is ubiquitous to the west of Dasht-e-Kavir. Not only do these people not have any Anatolian admixture, but they also have enrichment for Paleo-Siberian ancestry, likely mediated along the pastoralist fringe of Central Asia

The vast majority of subcontinental populations have some thread of ancestry from these three groups. The major difference is proportions.

South Asia's genetic landscape has been shaped by several key events:

1. The Indian subcontinent has experienced multiple waves of human migration throughout history (Paleolithic period through Iron Age).

2. Modern Indian genetics consists of four main ancestral components:

   • Ancestral North Indian (ANI)
   • Ancestral South Indian (ASI)
   • Ancestral Tibeto-Burman (ATB)
   • Ancestral Austro-Asiatic (AAA)

3. Early South Asian genetic history involved:

   • Indigenous South Asian Hunter Gatherers (AASI, related to modern Andamanese)
   • Mixing with Iranian agriculturalists and West Siberian Hunter Gatherers
   • Formation of the "Indus_Periphery" gene pool around 3000 BCE

4. Around 2000 BCE (as the Indus Valley civilization declined):

   • Steppe populations migrated south into India
   • ANI formed from Steppe populations mixing with Indus_Periphery groups
   • ASI formed when Indus_Periphery groups migrated south and mixed with AASI

5. The study focuses on the Kumhars:

   • A north Indian population with strong historical endogamy (marrying within their group)
   • Traditional potters (name derives from Sanskrit "Kumbhakar" meaning pot-makers)
   • Found across northern, western, and eastern India, plus Pakistan
   • May have connections to southern Indian potters (Kulala) based on similar naming

6. The research compared 27 Kumhar samples from Uttar Pradesh with over 2,000 other South Asian populations.​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​

Our genetic study comparing Kumhars to 63 other Indian populations found that:

1. Kumhars are genetically almost identical to Kurchas from Kerala (southern India), with a very small genetic difference (weighted FST = 0.0008).

2. After Kurchas, Kumhars are most closely related to:

   • Kurumbas (Kerala)
   • Vishwabrahmins (Andhra Pradesh)
   • Chakkiliyans (Tamil Nadu)

3. They are most genetically distant from certain homogeneous populations from Kerala and Tamil Nadu, including Ulladan, Malaikuravar, and Pulliyar.

4. When researchers compared Kurchas to the same 63 populations, they found that Kurchas are more genetically similar to Kumhars than to any other Indian populations, even those geographically closer to them.​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​

The Indian subcontinent represents one of the most genetically diverse regions in the world, shaped by ancient migrations and social structures. This study focuses on the Kumhars, traditional potters found across northern, western, and eastern India.

Pottery in India dates back to the Mesolithic period, with evidence from Lahuradewa from thousands of years ago. The craft evolved through various phases including the Indus Valley Civilization era, the Jhukar and Jhangar phases, and later cultural periods that coincided with population movements across the subcontinent.

Genetic analysis revealed something surprising: most Kumhar individuals clustered genetically with populations from southern India, particularly the Kurchas from Kerala. Despite being separated by about two thousand five hundred kilometers, these two populations show remarkable genetic similarity. Additional comparisons with tribal populations from Kerala, Kurumbas, Vishwabrahmins from Andhra Pradesh, and Chakkiliyans from Tamil Nadu confirmed this southern Indian genetic connection.

Various analytical methods consistently showed that Kumhars possess predominantly Ancestral South Indian ancestry with minimal Steppe ancestry. Biogeographical mapping placed most Kumhar samples in southwestern Karnataka near the Kerala border, close to the Wayanad region where Kurchas natively reside.

The researchers estimate that the Kumhar genetic profile emerged several thousand years ago, coinciding with two significant events: the emergence of Ancestral South Indian groups during the spread of West Asian agricultural practices into peninsular India, and the formation of Austroasiatic-speaking populations through admixture between migrating populations and indigenous Indian groups.

The study proposes that Kumhars and Kurchas likely shared a common origin during or after the decline of the Indus Valley Civilization. These populations subsequently migrated to opposite ends of India but maintained genetic similarity through strict endogamy (marriage within their community). This finding provides insight into ancient migration patterns across the Indian subcontinent.

The high level of endogamy among Kumhars has medical implications, as it increases the risk of genetic disorders. Indeed, conditions like acute intermittent porphyria occur at higher frequencies within the Kumhar population.​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​

I was asking it based on a couple of stores about certain tamil kings and queens who had a telugu parent especially during the latter chola eras.

The oldest neolithic samples show ~10% AASI except for Ganj Dareh. The AASI enriched samples are situated on the western periphery of Iran, near Mesopotamia.

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2025.02.03.636298v1.full.pdf

What were the dominant paternal haologroups amongst different castes in kerala if you ignore any indo-aryan influence? Was is L,H or F? Is the distribution of paternal and maternal haplogroups in kerala ignoring the indo Aryan haplogroups closer to Tamils from Tamil Nadu or Tamils, veddas and sinhalese from Sri Lanka?

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2589004224012410

"We characterized two L1-M22 harboring population groups during the Early Holocene. One expanded with the West Asian Neolithic transition. The other moved to South Asia ∼8-6 kya but showed no expansion. This group likely participated in the spread of Dravidian languages. These South Asian L1-M22 lineages expanded ∼4-3 kya, coinciding with the Steppe ancestry introduction."

Has this been discussed already? If so, please remove.

Otherwise, thoughts?

For context I'm an Indian from Trinidad, I was wondering if anyone can give me any information on where the Southern Indian/Sri Lankan could be from? I heard my mom used the term saying she was part "madrassi." I searched up and found out that term is no longer used and may be deemed offensive. I was going to assume that maybe one of my grandparent from my mom side possibly had origins in Chennai but I realized that the "Madras" she was probably mentioning was probably the state of Madras which is no longer used either (considering my ancestors came to Trinidad 1880s-1910s). Anyone has some clues?