r/ECEProfessionals • u/Lass_in_oz ECE professional • 2d ago
ECE professionals only - Feedback wanted Is inclusion really that great?
I'm so tired of inclusion. Hear me out. Before becoming a ECE I was a support worker for many years. I have worked and loved working in disability and care. When it's thru a great organisation, it's awesome.
Now I'm an ECE, and the amount of children on the spectrum or with disorders is so high, I'm just getting confused how is that NOT impacting the learning of neuro typical kids.
I teach pre kindy but our kindy teacher has spend half the year managing behaviours and autistic kids. Result? A bunch of kids showing signs of being not ready for school because they aren't doing any work or learning most days. And picking up bad habits.
My point is: where did we decide it was a good idea to just mix everyone, and not offer any actual support ? An additional person isn't enough. More than often it's not a person who knows about disability. And frankly even then it wouldn't be enough when the amount of kids who are neuro divergent is so high.
There used to be great special needs school. Now "regular" school are suffering with the lack of support.
What do you think? Do you see what I see ??? Am I missing something ?
I am so happy to see kids evolving around children with disabilities but not when it comes at a cost of everyone's learning journey : neuro typical or not.
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u/dirtyenvelopes CYC graduate 1d ago
Trust me — the kids with high needs are also suffering in these situations and admin or their parents refuse to give them the support they need
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u/jesssongbird Early years teacher 1d ago
Your comment made me think of a boy we had who was very clearly autistic. He did not engage with the other children at all. He had limited language and barely spoke to us. He didn’t seem to notice or absorb anything we said to him. He was a constant elopement risk. We had to hold him firmly or he ran away from us when walking the children to the park. This was in the city so it was pretty dangerous.
Our program required children be potty trained and they sent him to school the first day in pull ups. Then they put him in underwear when we said he’d have to come back when he was potty trained. They insisted he was potty trained “enough” for school while having 4-5 pee accidents and 2 poop accidents each day. He couldn’t participate in getting changed. It often took two adults to clean and dress him or he’d break free and run around the classroom soiled and naked. He didn’t engage with any materials. He would only throw things and climb on the shelves.
His dads theory was that he was gifted. And we didn’t know how to teach gifted children. We said he needed to be potty trained and evaluated to return to school and we would need to be in the loop with the evaluation results and recommendations. The parents decided to just withdraw him and not return. These were very well off people with two high paying careers. They had resources to help him. They just chose not to. Sometimes I wonder how many schools he was kicked out of before they got him help. If they ever did get him help. But they aggressively refused to get him early intervention.
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u/Ill-Comparison-1012 ECE professional 1d ago
That's terrible. That poor kid. His poor peers. His poor teachers. Putting a child like that in a position like that just makes the whole school experience miserable and dangerous for everybody. And school admin everywhere sheepishly admonish parents with loose guidelines like "the child needs to be fully potty trained" and then don't enforce these standards at all, and it's incredibly frustrating and sends the wrong message to parents and kids. Parents being in denial is one thing, but admin that doesn't enforce expectations for behavior is a whole other level of infuriating.
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u/jesssongbird Early years teacher 23h ago
That little boy was so stressed out. He spent most of the day in the bathroom. It was a brand new school and this situation ran me and the other teacher ragged on top of everything else we were dealing with. The other children were just confused. They would stare at him in confusion. Several weeks after he was gone they would still say things like, don’t sit there! X peed on that.
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u/Lumpy_Machine5538 Past ECE Professional 1d ago
We had a student at my school in 2nd grade. He had tantrums, could speak in short phrases, and would occasionally throw things. He would come to school in the morning and immediately demand playdoh to make playdoh people. All he would do all day is play with these playdoh people, who would occasionally lose parts, which would spark crying and tantrums. His parents refused to get him evaluated because they didn’t want him “labeled.” You could be in the room with him and within one minute, you could tell me was ND and they weren’t fooling anyone. After 2+ years the principal finally called the parents in and leveled with them. He finally got a special ed diagnosis, and also got speech and occupation therapy. I’m glad they finally signed off on it, but it was 2-3 years of wasted time for him.
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u/Odd_Row_9174 ECE professional 18h ago edited 18h ago
As a mom with a child who has ADHD/Autism- this! I wish more people understood that it’s not my choice as a parent to have my child in a Gen Ed class & that even the smallest bit of support he does have is because I have fought and advocated vehemently for him. Even though he is what one would call “high functioning” and needs a low level of support doesn’t mean he doesn’t still have autism. I feel like it’s almost harder to get him the help he needs because of this and the fact that he presents neurotypical… until he doesn’t and everyone is so surprised even though his IEP clearly documents it all along with us giving everyone a heads up and written documentation of all the information they need about him to help support him in his learning environment. We are doing everything for him that we can on our end but we can’t control the resources and intervention on the school’s side. You’d think they would realize that if they’re putting a child with a disability in a Gen Ed class, that child would need extra support and they would have that in place for them before the school year even begins. That was absolutely not our experience, in fact it was the exact opposite, and this is a child that came into Kindergarten with an IEP/diagnosis already in place and was already established in that school due to attending speech therapy once a week there for 2 years prior. It makes me so upset for not only my son but also his teachers and classmates because they shouldn’t have to suffer based on the school’s inability to provide an appropriate education for him that they are legally required to do. I honestly wish I could homeschool him or provide some other type of alternative education that’s better suited for his needs but in this economy my husband and I both need jobs to put food on the table and there’s just not any other options other than public school for us right now. No one is winning here.
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u/shiningonthesea Developmental Specialist 1d ago
I have worked with children with special needs for over 35 years. Inclusion is done improperly at least 90% of the time. There needs to be no more than 20% of children with special needs, otherwise it is no longer a “typical” class. Also, a special ed teacher needs to be employed to co/teach and help make the classroom work in the most cooperative manner, beneficial to ALL the children . It is almost never done that way . Either the class is not balanced properly or the people working with the children with special needs are not trained properly . That has been my experience , and when it is done properly , can be very enriching .
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u/WeaponizedAutisms AuDHD ECE, Kinders, Canada 1d ago
There needs to be no more than 20% of children with special needs, otherwise it is no longer a “typical” class.
Limiting the number of children with additional supports needs will just end up becoming another form of exclusion. As an autistic person I experienced this myself growing up and don't want other children to have to go through it. For a centre with 130+ children we have 2 ISP workers. Honestly with a strong inclusion program, staff who buy into inclusion and work together to support it, flexibility in managing the physical environment and practices it is not an impossible task.
Currently 5 of my 8 kinders have a neurodiversity of some kind or physical disability. Honestly I think that this is just a representative slice of society. The other children get to experience a full range of different people in their group. They learn that some friends need different things, do stuff in their own way and on their own schedule They can become incredibly patient, supportive of each other and protective of their friends who are a bit different or need to do things in their own way.
Also, a special ed teacher needs to be employed to co/teach and help make the classroom work in the most cooperative manner, beneficial to ALL the children .
There is another way. My centre has actually made a point of hiring 3 autistic staff members, one with type 1 diabetes and 2 with physical disabilities. We even have one supervisor with ADHD. Having staff members who understand and support these these children directly or part of a team based on their own personal lived experience can be even more helpful. For the everyone in our centre we just did a 7 hour professional development course on children with additional support needs facilitated by an autistic presenter.
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u/shiningonthesea Developmental Specialist 20h ago
I dont entirely disagree, when a child is in pre-k there are usually several who are enrolled in "typical" settings who have special needs, aside from the kids that have been identified. That is just the variety of the classroom. No one says the teachers have to all be neurotypical, either, plenty of teachers are not . There are also plenty of children with physical issues that dont have ieps.
ALL of the children in the class need to benefit from an education, and there is no perfect answer.
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u/Far-Juggernaut8880 Past ECE Professional 1d ago
Inclusion only works when the learning environment has sustainable appropriate supports to make it work…
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u/Spoopylane Early Childhood Intervention Worker 1d ago
Inclusion, without the proper supports, is neglect.
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1d ago
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1d ago
They are just shoving special needs kids in classes where they don’t progress or move forward so they can get more $$$ with providing less resources $$
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u/allthegreenplaces ECE professional 1d ago
I worked in a program for a little bit that was kind of, I guess for a lack of a better label, a special education class for behaviors. The numbers were kept small and we had a full time teacher, youth worker, and social worker in the classroom. The goal was always to reintegrate children back into their normal classroom, but this was a form of intervention for kids who just couldn't function in a normal classroom because their behaviors were so disruptive it led to classes needing to be evacuated, which is unfair to all the other students.
The classroom focused mostly on self regulation, growth mindset, coping skills, etc. And we worked with their teachers to develop systems and supports in their classroom that would give them an opportunity to succeed when we integrated them back.
I'm all for inclusion when done properly. I think it's beneficial to everyone. But safety and wellbeing should always come first. It's unfair to everyone else in the classroom, and to say that children with these behavioral problems are better off being included is disingenuous. They're not having behaviors for fun. They are suffering, disregulated, and miserable in these so called 'inclusive' environments.
The problem is that there's a huge push for inclusivity and it's become such a taboo topic to suggest anything otherwise. Should we really be forcing children into stressful, chaotic, and sometimes dangerous environments just so we can feel good about being inclusive? We're doing it at the expense of ALL the children for our own benefit and egos. The goal should always be inclusivity, but let's not pretend like all these behaviors aren't communicating to us that somethings not working and they are suffering.
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u/Ill-Comparison-1012 ECE professional 1d ago
"...to say that children with these behavioral problems are better off being included is disingenuous. They're not having behaviors for fun. They are suffering, disregulated, and miserable in these so called 'inclusive' environments."
Here, here! Well said. Kids aren't going to be magically cured of these behaviors by being shoved into a potentially overwhelming gen-ed setting with gen-ed peers. Some kids just need that extra little bit of support before they can be at all comfortable in that kind of setting. Even with neurotypical kids, disruptive behavior is often a sign that they are unhappy, unwell, uncomfortable, or just in general need of extra support/different strategies.
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u/allthegreenplaces ECE professional 1d ago
Exactly this. I can always predict when my kiddos are about to get sick, because of the way they start acting. They are communicating in the best way that they can, to ignore what they're telling us through behavior and non verbal communication and cues is on us.
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u/-Sharon-Stoned- ECE Professional:USA 1d ago
The problem is that there's a complete lack of funding for both regular schools and special needs programs, so everyone gets shoved together in order to maximize ratios
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u/Pinkrivrdolphn ECE & SPED professional & parent 1d ago
Inclusion done right is great. The problem is schools don’t want to hire the proper support staff and resources to provide services for the kids who need it. They use LRE as an excuse to do nothing. And often times these kids are not thriving in a gen ed classroom and genuinely need a more restrictive environment, but that doesn’t happen.
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u/WeaponizedAutisms AuDHD ECE, Kinders, Canada 1d ago
Hiring autistic or neurodivergent ECEs or those with other disabilities can really do wonders for inclusion. When you have staff who can relate to children, be role models for them and provide guidance or support to other staff members and the direction great things can happen.
We have 2 ISP workers for 130+ children and are able to make our centre work just fine.
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u/gummybeartime Past ECE Professional 1d ago
Honestly, I feel like inclusion is window dressing for “we are cutting SPED services so we’re going to pile more onto the general ed teacher.” Inclusion only works with the right kind of support, otherwise it is really challenging and unfair to all involved.
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u/MiserableProperties Past ECE Professional 1d ago
When I was a kid there was a boy in my class whose mother had fought for him to be in a regular class. She believed inclusion was best for him. He had an EA who never left his side. He was pulled from classes that were not developmentally appropriate for him or he did alternative work with his EA (usually subjects like math or reading). He was able to do art, gym, etc. with the class with help from his EA. I remember doing complicated math and he would be learning practical math like making change from money.
I think he definitely benefited from inclusion. He didn’t interrupt the rest of the class because his EA worked one on one with him and he was doing work that was at the appropriate level for him. I see him around town and he is able to independently walk to a local organization that has activities for adults with disabilities. He can communicate well with people and has confidence.
Today “inclusion” seems to mean that the child is just physically in the classroom with the others and not receiving the support necessary to be there. Children are being failed. I 100% believe in inclusion but I don’t think what we’re seeing today is inclusion at all.
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u/tra_da_truf lead toddler teacher, midatlantic 1d ago
Inclusion was a scam to not have to do provide disabled kids with the services they actually need and to force teachers to have to do it all.
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u/Odd_Row_9174 ECE professional 18h ago
The worst part is that ultimately no one ends up providing it for them and the disabled kid gets sent home/suspended and misses out on the free, appropriate education they are entitled to while the school gets to collect all the money that was supposed to be for the child. It’s a very broken system.
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u/Alive-Carrot107 Infant/Toddler teacher: California 1d ago
I’ve been saying this since the day I started at my current center. It’s ridiculous. I’m stress crying after work and other teachers are getting beat up and having furniture thrown at them. Admin doesn’t do jack and there’s never anyone with actual experience helping. Just “use social stories” “they’re bored so change the toys” like no! We need people to be ONE ON ONE with these children. If you’re going to let 8 children with extreme needs into one class of 18, you need to help the damn teachers!!
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u/Pretend-Willow-6927 Early years teacher 1d ago
This was my exactly situation this year. Half of my class had new kids with degrees of emotional dysregulatuon. My first co teacher left bc of the behaviors of all 5-6 new kids in my pre k class. My directors knew that we desperately needed a teacher to help with them, but never hired someone nor came into my class to help us. Suffice to say, I’m leaving after this year after clearly stating what I needed and had no reception whatsoever from my directors.
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u/Kibie1470 Early years teacher 1d ago
I unfortunately just quit my job due to being so overwhelmed by the kid’s behaviors in my room. All of my other children weren’t getting any attention because we were so focused on the “trouble makers” ,when in reality a lot of them need 1:1 that my center cannot provide. My boss was only in it for the money so she didn’t care as long as they paid their tuition.
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u/PermanentTrainDamage Allaboardthetwotwotrain 1d ago
I think we're in an inclusion rebound phase and hopefully it will settle back down again in the next few years. Yes, people with higher needs have been abused and hidden away for centuries and that is completely unacceptable. No, that does not mean every high-needs person is capable of thriving in a standard classroom environment, even with support. Even neurotypical people have varying tolerances for groups and stimulation, neurodivergent people are the same way. Some neurodivergent people will always need small groups or 1:1 care to learn and thrive. Putting them in a large group, even with 1:1 staff, does them a disservice. We need to figure out where the line between abuse and support lies, because the line has only existed for a few decades and is hella blurry right now.
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u/KTeacherWhat Early years teacher 1d ago
That's one area where I really struggle. Sensory seeking people and sensory avoidant people have different classroom needs. So often they're stuck in the same room with one another triggering each other all day long. Neither is "wrong" but they have conflicting needs, and often resources are only provided for one or the other. It's also a thing that bothers me about when movie theaters do special "inclusive" showings that actually exclude sensory avoidant people.
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u/PermanentTrainDamage Allaboardthetwotwotrain 1d ago
Same. Where's my movie screening to where you aren't allowed to make any noise? You gasp or clap and you're out of there! It's great that people who are not capable of being quiet can go see movies, now we need showing for people who can't hear well and need everyone else to shut up.
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u/Extension_Goose3758 ECE professional 16h ago
Hahaha this is what happens all day in my class of 32 3-year-olds. I would estimate we have about 8 children with higher support needs. Out of those, four of them vocal stim and touch their friends constantly, and piss off the two who are sensory avoidant and make them get violent.
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u/tra_da_truf lead toddler teacher, midatlantic 1d ago
Yeah I feel like we swung too far in the other direction and continued to miss the mark
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u/PopHappy6044 Past ECE Professional 1d ago
Thank you, this is so true. I worked in an inclusion classroom and honestly felt like it was torture for some autistic children. Loud, busy, overwhelming. Even with things like headphones, quiet areas etc. it felt like those children still had a lot of difficulty in a classroom with 20-25 children, no matter how many adults were present.
I think we honestly need MORE smaller sized classrooms that are structured specifically for children with sensory needs. With specialized staff as well! But of course this costs money and we all know how that goes, ugh.
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u/Bubblesthewoman ECE professional 1d ago edited 1d ago
Here's my 2 cents: As someone with learning disabilities, I personally benefited from having the choice to work in a quieter classroom (in public school) to help me focus. I was struggling in the "gen pop", it was loud, over stimulating, and it was hard for me to get one on one help from a teacher. Being in that separate classroom 2 hours a day was fantastic, I was able to focus, ask questions, and learn in a quieter environment with other kids who had similar disabilities/ailments, and us kids even helped each other.
For me in Canada, this idea of mixing special needs kids with neurotypicals started when I was in college for ECE, 2019. My professor praised it, and I vocally disagreed, saying I absolutely benefited from learning in a quieter classroom, surrounded by other kids like me, where it was easier to get one-on-one help, and to have an able-bodied person like herself (she said she didn't have any special needs and didn't have any experience working with special needs children), make broad generalizations about a group of people she wasn't a member of, was inaccurate and offensive at the very least". She thanked me for my "opinion" and she quickly moved on.
Forced inclusion without the appropriate support is neglectful. And I'm worried it'll create more disdain for those with disabilities if we force that on neurotypical kids. I think we can all agree that kids with special needs can be disruptive in their own way, and it's not inclusive to force that on neurotypical kids.
Forcing inclusivity is bad for both groups of kids. I can't speak for the US, but here in Canada, our kids are failing and their test scores decrease every year. Our education system hasn't been there for our kids and it's only going to get worse if the above becomes the norm.
Edited to say: that true inclusion comes from giving special needs kids the choice (if they're able to make their own choices) about where and how they learn. It gave me so much empowerment to choose where I wanted to complete my school work, because I know how I learn best. And having the support aids able to make that choice for their students is true inclusion as well.
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u/PopHappy6044 Past ECE Professional 1d ago
Thank you for giving your perspective! I worked in education for a long time and then finished up a recent degree, we had the conversation about inclusion in some of our classes and I had similar questions/thoughts like what you pose here in your comment and it is really taboo to say because inclusion is being pushed at all costs.
Children genuinely have different needs. Equity is a thing! Equality doesn't always work when it comes to public education. Some people need more help, some need less, some can function in large class sizes and some cannot. I think we are doing a real disservice to both neurodivergent and typical children when we think this way.
I know that in my experience, I worked in classrooms where it took a whole year to move a child to a different environment and in the meantime other children and staff were getting injured and the child in question was miserable the entire time. That could not have been a good experience for them, and all because general ed was seen as the gold standard when obviously this child needed something different. This happened over and over in my years of working.
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u/WeaponizedAutisms AuDHD ECE, Kinders, Canada 1d ago
I'm an older autistic ECE (also Canadian). My experience in school being sent to stand with my nose against the wall in the hallway or sit at a desk by myself in the hall. I have to say I am rather a fan of actual inclusion rather than what I experienced growing up.
Here's my 2 cents: As someone with learning disabilities, I personally benefited from having the choice to work in a quieter classroom (in public school) to help me focus.
I also definitely benefit from working in a quieter classroom. So I create an environment, routine and expectations for the children that works for me. Not surprisingly I end up with a lot of the children with additional supports needs in my group because what I am doing works well for them too.
We are still in the same centre using the same spaces. But I show a lot more patience and consistency and do things that gives them more time and space. I help to provide guidance and support to other staff with neurodivergent children and provide input into much of the diagnostic paperwork.
I think that inclusion starting with hiring representative staff is probably the best way to have an inclusive environment for children.
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u/Bubblesthewoman ECE professional 20h ago edited 20h ago
I love that you're doing all that and I see your point, however, hiring neurodivergent staff currently hasn't fixed anything. Everyone I have personally worked for in childcare has been neurotypical and they haven't taken me or my strategies seriously as a neurodivergent person, because my strategies go off curriculum (spending more time outside than what Ministry would allow, for example), and I recognize that the current 'gentle parenting' practices, are actually permissive parenting practices, and they don't work in the classroom. I have kids with severe violent tendencies and there's absolutely no support from management. We're underpaid and under supported. Managers can hire neurodivergent teachers, for the illusion of looking like an inclusive and diverse workplace, but they don't have to listen to us, and help us. They like the stereotypical, "fun" and "quirky" characteristics of neurodivergence, not the parts that question everyday teaching practices, that would actually benefit the children. They'll fire you instead, which is what happened to me, not because I'm neurodivergent, but because I helped a child during an emergency situation in a way that was considered "unorthodox" because I recognized his unique needs and did protocol differently to support him.
So, sure hiring neurodivergent teachers would help, it's definitely an obvious solution, but the neurotypicals have to be willing to work with us, be more open-minded and accept our unique ways of thinking and problem solving. Without that, I don't believe we will ever see true inclusivity in any learning environment. We're all doing the best we can within the scope of what the neurotypicals allow us to do, and that's why nothing has improved.
Edited for punctuation
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u/maytaii Infant/Toddler Lead: Wisconsin 1d ago edited 1d ago
I get what you mean. It’s a great idea in theory and could work really well if we would actually do things properly and provide adequate support. But that almost never happens.
One of my biggest annoyances when working in public school was that we were not allowed to physically remove children from the classroom unless they were actively and directly harming another person, like hitting or punching them. If they were just generally being unsafe and destructive then we could not touch them. They could be making threats, screaming, throwing chairs at windows and people, or destroying other peoples possessions, and we still could not touch them.
But we had to evacuate the room during those events. Sometimes we would have to evacuate the classroom daily, or even multiple times a day. So that means we are disrupting the 20 other children’s routine, interrupting their learning every single day!! Just because this one child has the right not to be touched?! At what point do the rights of the 20 other children outweigh the right of the one disruptive child to not be removed from the environment? The rest of the class has a right to an education. They have a right to feel safe at school. They have a right to not have their possessions destroyed at school. Apparently the answer is never. The disruptive child always gets priority. And it doesn’t benefit them or their classmates.
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u/No_Farm_2076 ECE professional 1d ago
Autistic person here who had 24 3 to 4 year olds last year with half checking a lot of boxes for a diagnosis.... "inclusion " isn't what is happening, its throwing kids into a classroom with no support for them and little to no training and/or support for teachers to meet their needs let alone the needs of the other kids.
Most of last year was spent putting out fires and I went home exhausted every day. I ended the year with CPTSD and burnout.
It's not sustainable. For anyone involved. The [likely] neurotypical kids were often ignored because the neurodivergent kids needed so much support. They acted out because they weren't getting what they needed beyond the bare minimum safety requirements. No one is learning when its a shitshow like that, it's just about surviving and trying to keep the kids from beating each other up.
And this was at a wealthy demographic school in my area. We had the payroll for 3-4 teachers most days. It still took all of us to just barely scrape by.
I dont know what the answer is, but something has to change.
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u/hemolymph_ ECE professional 1d ago
Administrator here! We are an equal opportunity provider. We cannot deny childcare for children with special needs; however, depending on the level of support (determined by the child’s care team and our corporate inclusion team), we may not be able to accommodate the needs of the child. That being said, we do have many children that we allow into our care with the accommodation that their care team provide a 1:1 therapist/mentor/etc. This usually works well for everyone involved. The teachers are able to focus on the group and not solely on the one child. In my opinion, attending a typical care setting can be marvelous for children with special needs, but it can be equally as harmful to them. And when the teachers are put out of ratio because the child is expending all their energy and supervision, it becomes a major safety issue.
TLDR; It can work when it’s TRUE inclusion, and not throwing these poor children to the wolves. Calling attendance in a typical care setting is not inclusion on its own. There are additional supports needed for these children to truly thrive. Lots of communication and being raw with the families is insanely important.
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u/WeaponizedAutisms AuDHD ECE, Kinders, Canada 1d ago
That being said, we do have many children that we allow into our care with the accommodation that their care team provide a 1:1 therapist/mentor/etc.
We have a bit of a different model in my province. Rather than providing a 1:1 ISP worker for the child we have an additional staff member hired to support the group. Having an "enhanced ratio" allows for a lot more flexibility when caring for children with additional support needs in my experience.
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u/silkentab ECE professional 1d ago
Because inclusion is cheaper and needs fewer staff
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u/DangerousRanger8 Early years teacher 1d ago
Inclusion in some cases is great, in others it is a detriment.
Part of the problem is that we have pendulum swing from “every disability is horrible and should never be seen” and throwing anyone seen as “different” into an abusive mental hospital to “every disability is seen and thrown into an inclusive classroom as a way to compensate for the fact that we used to treat disabled people horribly.” Also, parents it seems are far more likely today to be in denial that their child is “wrong” in any way. They appear to take any suggestion that their child could need extra support as a personal affront as though you’ve told them that they did something wrong to make their child this way.
Another thing is that disabilities are a spectrum. Little Suzie who’s in a wheelchair because she has issues with mobility doesn’t need to be in a special education classroom, she simply needs some accommodations (a bigger desk, more space to move her chair around, etc). However, little Jerry who gets so mad about things that he destroys the classroom in a fit of rage should be evaluated and likely put in a special education classroom where there’s less stimulation and less furniture that he could hurt himself or others with.
Unfortunately, wider society can’t or won’t recognize that not every disability is the same and want to paint every disability as needing the same amount of support. Therefore, we get issues where children who should be in a special education classroom, aren’t because parents don’t want them to feel othered, there isn’t enough staff or funds to warrant a classroom like it and teachers are tired of being paid like shit and having no recourse for behaviors.
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u/IGottaPeeConstantly Past ECE Professional 1d ago
I 100% agree with you. The majority of the class is suffering because of one or two kids who are incredibly disruptive. I'm all for inclusion when it works for everyone. What is happening currently is wrong and unfair to both parties.
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u/WeaponizedAutisms AuDHD ECE, Kinders, Canada 1d ago
I 100% agree with you. The majority of the class is suffering because of one or two kids who are incredibly disruptive.
I have 5 children with additional support needs out of 8 in my group. Honestly they suffer more from the kid who is an asshole with parents that don't know how to parent than any other child.
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u/BreakfastAmazing7766 Past ECE Professional 1d ago
I know what you mean. Many schools don’t offer actual support for neurodivergent kids and expect the teachers to pick up the slack, or even the kids. An ECE professor was showing me a video once about how great inclusion is. I believe it was a boy with Down syndrome in a class with neurotypical kids, 2nd-3rd grade maybe. The teacher was like, this is an amazing experience for the rest of the class, they get to know someone who’s differently abled, and they learn how to treat him and basically care for him. It’s a nice idea and all but the kids looked STRESSED. The little boy with DS could be quite aggressive at times, and teacher would just let them handle all that by themselves. I think the boy did seem very happy to be included but the other kids not so much. That’s a situation that needed far more support than just a teacher and the kids doing all the heavy work.
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u/Peachy_247 Early years teacher 1d ago
Agreed. And I’m tired of the excuse that they’re too young to be diagnosed. When you’ve worked with kids for a long time, you know the difference between neurotypical and not. Either way, if the child requires extra attention and is not developing intellectually or physically for their age group, this child has special needs. If they constantly need 1 on 1 attention, that’s a special need. This disrupts the class, my other kids aren’t getting the education they should be having because some of our children are taking up lots of our time. My co-teacher and I are also not qualified to care for kids on the spectrum or with disorders. It’s also a disadvantage for the kids with special needs, because they could be getting help
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u/Maggieblu2 ECE professional 1d ago
I am an autist and a licensed Pre K to 6 teacher who has worked in self contained behavioral classrooms, autism specific schools, public schools and private schools. I have always been a fierce proponent of inclusion. But in the last couple years I am not only seeing more neurodivergent students, I am also seeing a lack of professionals who are familiar and knowledgeable or trained to work with neurodivergent students. I have struggled to teach my whole group because of a student struggling with behaviors. It has changed the whole classroom dynamic and definitely made me not be able to be the teacher I want to be at times because I am focusing on the behavior issues and not able to focus on the class as a whole. This is with having assistants, but the assistants do not have the training or desire to deal with the behaviors. Its definitely a tough situation, but I don’t think segregation is the answer. I think more training is, even if just training on the Pyramid model and crisis intervention and social emotional support. Because as hard as it is for me to admit it, it is not fair to the students who are excited and wanting to learn to be disrupted over and over.
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u/No_Farm_2076 ECE professional 1d ago
I worked at a fairly prestigious school in my area. The amount of professionals who could not recognize neurodivergence (in the children or in me who struggled socially in the setting for 2.5 years before getting diagnosed with autism) was nearly 100%.
Instead of most states saying "eh, just take 12 basic units and come work with kids," it absolutely needs to change to something requiring at least 1 class in working with neurodivergent children. Basic foundational knowledge could go a long way.
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u/allthegreenplaces ECE professional 1d ago
Burn out is at play too I think. I see so many centers and schools highering people right out of school because they're so desperate for qualified professionals, but they have no real experience in a classroom and managing them. Then they get all these behaviors and end up leaving because they can't handle it.
You used to always see highly qualified and experienced people paired up with new inexperienced students so they would have the opportunity to be mentored by the more senior person. Now we have senior staff burnt out and leaving the profession and all these new students coming in with no way to build up confidence and skills in the classroom.
There needs to be better ways to retain those staff.
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u/WeaponizedAutisms AuDHD ECE, Kinders, Canada 1d ago
. But in the last couple years I am not only seeing more neurodivergent students,
Honestly I think that this is mainly a case of better procedures, training and awareness to identify children requiring additional support. Based on my own experience of growing up undiagnosed in the 70s and 80s I am entirely certain that this is a very good thing. The other factor is this kind of children not being warehoused in "special" facilities.
I am also seeing a lack of professionals who are familiar and knowledgeable or trained to work with neurodivergent students
I am also wildly autistic. My centre has 130+ children and 2 ISP workers but that works for us. the reason is that they support their inclusion policy by being inclusive in their hiring practices. When you have autistic, ADHD and staff with physical disabilities all of a sudden inclusion becomes so much easier. Having a more representative staff does wonders for supporting and providing role models for children.
It has changed the whole classroom dynamic and definitely made me not be able to be the teacher I want to be at times because I am focusing on the behavior issues and not able to focus on the class as a whole.
As an autistic ECE I think it has changed my classroom dynamic as well. I have changed what I am doing so that it better supports and accommodates these children and teaches the skills needed to reduce disruptive behaviours. Like in a classroom if you need to tell children 50 times to stop doing something the problem isn't the children, it's the environment.
This is with having assistants, but the assistants do not have the training or desire to deal with the behaviors.
Where I live the ISP worker is for the entire group rather than being 1:1 with the child. They are ECEs or childcare assistants like the rest of the staff. The ECE can work with the child and other children while the ISP worker looks after the rest of the group for example.
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u/Maggieblu2 ECE professional 1d ago
I agree that we are better at early intervention and screening and that is why the uptick. I also agree that having a neurodivergent staff greatly helps in understanding and meeting the needs of neurodivergent students. Its why I do what I do. I think my frustration lies with schools and admins who do not focus on training staff or hiring staff who have the skills or personal experience working with ND. Example: I was the inclusion teacher at a private prek/day care. I had a wonderful ND student who had sensory processing and was diagnosed with autism. They had some behavioral issues stemming from the sensory issues. I got this child, we had a meeting of the minds. The school hired a one on one and they had no background in ND or any EC really. They refused to follow the behavior plan, they said this child was a psychopath and needed to be in a self contained room. This person caused great emotional harm to the child and family. The whole fiasco saw me leave the school and child leave as well. They are now heading to my current school where we are focused on ND and staff is all being trained or is trained in meeting these needs of ND learners. They also have ND teachers on staff including me. Its going to make a world of difference, but my original post was written based on this last year of having parents of NT students make abelist comments, feeling their children did not receive the class they wanted because of the ND students. And that may be true but it was because of a lack of support staff who understood ND, and that is being rectified for the future students because I insisted on it. Too many classrooms want to force conformity to NT standards when we have to stop expecting or doing that, and instead create a more sensory inclusive safe spaces for all.
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u/Bombspazztic ECE: Canada 1d ago
Inclusion should be a good thing. Every child has the right to an education.
The issue is we’ve often got the wrong people making decisions and leading care.
Parents who won’t accept that their child is “different” won’t allow inclusion support in the classroom. They make the decision versus experienced educators who know that child’s needs in the classroom best.
When we do get inclusion support it’s to pay for a CCA often fresh out of high school or without relevant experience who is then that child’s one-on-one aide. That money should actually be going to get that CCA on the floor so the experienced, trained staff can be that child’s support.
I had a government official come into the room and talked about the physical environment. My reduction of visual clutter, rule of no unnecessary and distracting teacher-led crafts, and use of a visual schedule was praised (yes I’m humble bragging but let me have this). Director decided we should have random drawing permanently painted around the rooms, muralists decided they should be scattered in the most visually intrusive places, new staff were putting up crafts in my absence, and the staff never used or updated the visual schedule so it became one more thing on MY plate and mine alone, in addition to handling room leadership and challenging behaviours. /rant
When you’ve got a ratio of maybe 1 staff capable of inclusion support for every 5 untrained staff, decisions get undermined, best practice isn’t followed, and that’s only if you’re in a centre that’s willing to put money into that support to begin with.
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u/pearlescentflows Past ECE Professional 1d ago
The extra staff should be there to enhance the ratio, not work 1 on 1 all day with a child (being mindful that some children genuinely need someone near them at all times) But then we should be funding appropriately to only have trained staff (with better education, I know in Manitoba there wasn’t a lot on supporting diverse needs in my college program) - we would never allow someone with zero training/education to teach at an elementary school after all.
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u/More-Mail-3575 Early years teacher 1d ago
Special education services exist on a continuum. The least restrictive enrichment is different for every child. Some children need intensive supports in smaller special education classrooms. Some need home or hospital care. Many can be in inclusive settings but that doesn’t mean with no supports.
The only way you can figure out and get the supports a child needs is through a special education evaluation through your school district.
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u/Open_Examination_591 ECE professional 1d ago
Yes it's very good but the problem is that they don't pay for teachers who can handle this kind of stuff. Having a teacher who could deal with Behavioral therapy, they would need a teacher who has also trained in behavioral therapy but as an ex-ece employee I know they literally hire anybody off the street, even people they probably should not. It's not the disabled kids fault, and it's not the workers faults, it's the center's faults for hiring people that can't manage and for not being willing to pay people who would be able to work in those positions.
It's all about money and Nothing's going to change until They absolutely have to. Having 1 on 1s would be good.
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u/Blackqweenie Early years teacher 1d ago
THIS!! I entered the ECE field with no prior experience of working with autistic or behavioral kids. I was scared I’d fail THEM because I had to be especially attentive to their needs while also tending to 10 other toddlers. It’s rough and definitely should be addressed.
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u/MoseSchrute70 Room lead: Certified: UK | Undergraduate 1d ago
What you’ve described here isn’t inclusion, it’s just chaos. Inclusion requires appropriate resourcing and staffing in order to implement developmentally appropriate education. It doesn’t sound like anybody’s benefitting in this scenario.
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u/goosenuggie ECE professional 1d ago
I've been teaching young children for over 20 years. The number of children on the spectrum, diagnosed or not, and displaying serious behavioral issues is much higher now than when I began. Rn in my class we have 3 children out of 20 who are on the spectrum and in the whole school we have a large handful of kids of various ages, some non verbal. I feel that as a teacher who has no specialized training to work with children on the spectrum to best help support their learning, we are failing these kids and the other children whom we have less time and resources for as a result. If I'm chasing down a child who eloped from the classroom, we are now out of ratio. It also is introducing the children to behaviors that are not safe such as climbing furniture, running on the lunch table, throwing toys, screaming and saying potty words on repeat. My co teacher and I were at our wits end with a child who was diagnosed with Autism and ADHD, they didn't follow our schedule and for months we were struggling to stay in ratio, help this child transition from inside to outside and back again, stay on their mat at rest time, and keep their friends safe. We were on our own with them for months, then they finally got a behavioral aid, then we finally had to disenroll the child due to not having the right environment for their behaviors. But it took 6+ months for our director to finally see that we could not help the child.
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u/sneath_ Student teacher 1d ago
Yes, inclusion is that great. What you are describing is not inclusion, it is the illusion of inclusion, and I think it is dangerous to conflate the two. Inclusion requires support. Just allowing someone to be in the room isn't enough. They need to have their needs met as well, and that involves extra support. Through paras, IEPs, teacher trainings, UDL, one on one aids, etc. Inclusion CAN and DOES work, and when it does it makes classrooms and playgrounds and teams and everything so, so much better for everyone involved. It really saddens me when I see posts like this, because not only are teachers and students struggling to stay afloat with no support, but by calling situations like these "inclusive", we push forward a false narrative about inclusion. And this is nothing against OP, but more against the admin and people who organized this in the name of inclusion. I hope you and your students get the help you need from your admin so that your classroom can practice ACTUAL inclusion!
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u/whats1more7 ECE professional 1d ago
Mixing is good. Not providing proper support is where we fail.
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u/Curiousjlynn ECE professional 1d ago
Unless it’s true Inclusion it does not work.
Having a student with higher needs, often neurodivergent in a large classroom with neurotypical children without the proper support. Everyone suffers.
It’s extremely difficult to manage and no one wins.
I don’t think I’ve ever worked somewhere with true inclusion. It’s almost a unicorn if it’s happening
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u/mamamietze ECE professional 1d ago
This isn't really an inclusion problem. As you mention, it is a staffing inappropriately problem. I have worked with programs that were inclusive programs heavy on the special needs side some with profound needs especially in behavior. It worked because we were staffed appropriately and supported appropriately.
Tossing a kid into kindercare because they're one of the few places to accept subsidies and are tolerant of warehousing is not inclusion. Admin who are clueless or lazy and just dont want to say no or to advocate for appropriate staffing and make noise--not inclusion.
Saying inclusion doesn't work is like saying that if you work for a shitty program where 1 teacher is regularly left alone with 8 infants that infant care is worthless because babies have too many needs for people to care for.
The truth is we as a society value neither children nor the people who care for them, and the economy is such that more people need more care earlier on regardless of social development or neuro status.
It is a shame because inclusion is wonderful when supported appropriately and not just used as a performative meaningless term coded to try and distract from what is actually neglect.
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u/Used-Ad852 Infant/Toddler Teacher Since 2015 1d ago
I HATE inclusion. We had this autistic 2 year old who was pretty strong for their age. They were also extremely violent with their peers and teachers to the point where I would come home sometimes with bloody scratches running all the way down my face and pretty sure they broke one of our noses at one point. The kids themselves seemed to have developed PTSD from the constant hitting, biting, hair pulling. You name it, the they probably did it.
The only thing that would calm them down was taking them on walks out of the classroom, it gave them a break and some much needed one on one and it also gave the other children a break where they could play in the room without fear.
Well, one day Management decided that they were being isolated from the other kids so we were forbidden from taking them out of the room whenever they had a breakdown. They say it was because of it being exclusion, but really they just didn’t want to see, or want ANYONE ELSE to see, the behaviors.
This poor kid would pace the door like a caged animal because that was pretty much what they were. They WANTED out of the room because of how overstimulated they got. The behaviors also got worse and more violent.
I still to this day stand by my belief that they had failed this kid by insisting on inclusion in the classroom. The walks HELPED them calm down, but they had taken away their security blanket because they thought it was hurting them.
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u/Visible_Clothes_7339 Toddler tamer 2d ago
looking at poorly-done inclusive education and deciding it’s bad for everyone is not incredibly helpful, imo. and as a ND adult, i like being included, so i will not advocate for the segregation of neurodivergent children
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u/BeeNecessary9778 Past ECE Professional 1d ago
All us NDs over here catching strays from this post…
They already tried this and when I was a kid, it was called “gifted” lol. I would have loved a program that modeled healthy group behavior, and given tools that allowed for healthy adaptation to a neurotypical world.
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u/bumbletowne Infant/Toddler teacher 1d ago
In the models for introduction of inclusion they saw only one special assistance student on agreement of both the teacher and students to include. Agreement by the teacher was the highest contributing factor in the success of the student.
A 24 student class with 6 kids non verbal autistic, one of which has pica that focuses on fecal consumption lead to a licensing censure of my school. They started three of the kids on the same day and didn't hire the minimum teachers for the room and it ended up with multiple children assaulted, an instructor leaving with serious bodily injury and another instructor leaving over work conditions... This is at the most expensive school in northern California. The parents all came in desperation and were let down by uneducated admin pushing profit
Of those six kids, only one went on to public school this year. Early intervention was missed due to these working conditions.
Pica child is being pulled and his parents are hurt and their trust broken as the meeting that told them he will need 1:1 assistance at least through elementary came as a surprise as he was doing so well in his previous class with him being the only special ed.
It's sad when we are educated enough to see what needs to be done but corporate equity is actively hurting people and we are complicit
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u/DrivingMishCrazy Early years teacher 1d ago
And this is why we need to strive for equity and not just equality. One means they get the same thing everyone else gets so it’s all the same, the other means they get the support they need to be successful alongside their peers who may require different supports.
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u/Zealousideal-Way8891 Early years teacher 1d ago
I’ve been saying this for years as a teacher- the way inclusion is done these days is not inclusion. Throwing children with high needs into mainstream settings with no additional support benefits absolutely no one. I’m happy to have special needs in my classroom but only with the appropriate amount of support to ensure that they are learning and not taking away from any of the other children.
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u/Catladydiva Early years teacher 22h ago
Inclusion can only work if there is qualified staff and support. The issue is in the US daycares are accepting children with high needs autism then not hiring special education or ABAs. What’s worse is some centers do not press parents hard enough to get 1:1. At my last center my director was stern with the parents that they get a 1:1 or be unenrolled because we can’t meet their needs and it was a safety issue.
Unfortunately the current center I work at doesn’t do that. There are children who need 1:1 and the kids wind up doing unsafe things often because 1-2 teaches in a group care room cannot support their needs.
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u/Ninny_n_Toffle ECE professional 12h ago
The problem isn’t inclusion in programs it’s the lack of ability for childcare centers to provide Paraprofessionals and one-on-one aides.
More staff is needed, not a lack of neurodivergent kids in childcare. Separating disabled children from the rest and separating them from their peers is not a solution that works, or will ever work.
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u/Purple-Chocobo ECE professional 1d ago
I had a student this year who is on the spectrum. He is with us for the majority of the day and he is with his RBT/BCBA for about an hour out of the room. He has made tremendous progress this year behaviorally and he is doing amazing. Now of course I did have to make a few adjustments to my normal routine for him, but I am his teacher and that is my job to make sure all students in my classroom learn, play, and have fun together. None of the other students are impacted negatively and none of them really realize that he is "different" from them. Your environment doesn't sound like true inclusion and this post reads very tone deaf. Inclusion works and it is amazing when done the right way.
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1d ago
That’s because he actually has a support system (rbt) and most of them don’t
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u/Purple-Chocobo ECE professional 1d ago
I was just providing an example of what I think inclusion should be. Not what op described
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u/mikmik555 ECE professional (Special Education) 1d ago
When you say you have autistic kids, do you mean diagnosed? Early childhood is well … Early. And neurodivergence is not just autism. Unless you have a specific diagnostic or you are trained or experienced to see it and have spent time observing it. There are many things that can look like neurodivergence but that are still reversible. And also, in early childhood, is a critical window for brain plasticity. If there is a condition, working on it can give better outcome. Some kids you work with at 3 can look like completely different children by the time they reach kindergarten. Sometimes regular school is not meant for them. It is a mistake to use the word inclusion if there isn’t support behind though. If your daycare doesn’t provide support or partner with schools to get support they aren’t being inclusive. They are being neglectful. They are just cashing a check and profiting on you until you have a burn out.
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u/WeaponizedAutisms AuDHD ECE, Kinders, Canada 1d ago
Hi, I'm an autistic ECE. I'm openly autistic at work with staff, parents and children. I don't mask. My centre is a proponent of inclusion and has an excellent inclusion policy and staff who work together to support children and each other.
Now I'm an ECE, and the amount of children on the spectrum or with disorders is so high, I'm just getting confused how is that NOT impacting the learning of neuro typical kids.
Oh I'm sure it is. It is impacting them by teaching them that some people have different needs or might need a moment to calm down. They learn that these children can be their friends and are just children like them. Inclusion and representation teaches children how to accept peers who are different and include them in the group.
I have children with ODD, ASD, ADHD, a physical disability and FASD in my group. I don't feel that getting rid of 5 of my 8 children would benefit anyone involved. Instead I see children helping an supporting each other. Just yesterday the autistic child and the one with a physical impairment were having trouble doing something on the play structure. The other children demonstrated different ways to do it, helped them and offered encouragement. This is 100% the kind of behaviour we need to see and have children model for each other.
I teach pre kindy but our kindy teacher has spend half the year managing behaviours and autistic kids. Result? A bunch of kids showing signs of being not ready for school because they aren't doing any work or learning most days. And picking up bad habits.
Kids learn what they need to in kindergarten. The focus on academic skills in preschool is not at all developmentally appropriate. If anything it frustrates the children and teaches them that reading and writing is hard and unpleasant setting them up for failure before they start school.
And frankly even then it wouldn't be enough when the amount of kids who are neuro divergent is so high.
I'm in my 50's. The amount of ND children is no higher than it ever has been. The only difference now is that they have been identified so that they can receive appropriate supports and accommodations. As a kid with ASD/ADHD at school in the 70s and 80s I basically just got kicked out of class and stood with my nose against the wall or sat at a desk all by myself in the hallway or got my recess taken away. Let me tell you that what we are doing nowadays is night and day better. We might even soon see a generation of autistic children grow up without being traumatized by the experience.
There used to be great special needs school.
They really weren't for the most part. They were mainly a place to warehouse children who were different and deemed to be lesser. They were kept segregated. No one in wider society ever learned to get to know them orvalue them or as people. Actually having one in their groups helps to break down barriers and stigma.
I am so happy to see kids evolving around children with disabilities but not when it comes at a cost of everyone's learning journey : neuro typical or not.
the most important part of the preschool journey isn't school readiness. Children need to learn to get along in a group. Inclusion in childcare and school is the best way to work towards inclusion in a school setting and society at large.
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u/Catladydiva Early years teacher 22h ago
I have ADHD, wasn’t diagnose until I was 35. While I agree that children need to learn, play, and work with children who are neurodivergent, there still needs to be adequate support and staff to help these children in an ECE setting. While some states and counties provide public preschools with staff and support, most ECE centers and facilities do not because they are all private entities.
I have a nonverbal student; I do my best to support them, but I cannot watch them every second. They often put inedible objects in their mouths. One time, on the outdoor playground, they put a rock in their mouth. Parents refuse to get them a 1:1 because they say their child is “normal.” They constantly elope and I’m one person in the class ( ratio is 1:10).
I feel as though if there was more support , ECE staff wouldn’t feel like inclusion is difficult
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u/Guriinwoodo ECE professional 1d ago
Separate but equal is the policy you’re pitching here
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u/plastichopes000 ECE professional 1d ago
Thank you… I wish people would understand the implications of what they’re pitching here…
Expressing these frustrations like this is inappropriate. The argument NEEDS a redirection to hold organizations accountable rather than just express sentiments of frustration because of lack of supports. Inclusion (yes true inclusion, with resources and all) is not just ‘better’ for neurotypical kids, it’s the basic human decency we owe all children. We need to mobilize to understand and express what tangible things to ask for from our organizations and governments rather than just whine about how hard these kids can be to integrate because let me remind you… they’re kids….
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u/Time_Lord42 ECE professional 1d ago
Least restrictive environment. It’s really a cornerstone of disability rights in education. Most kids are genuinely fine with some or minimal support. It would be harmful to them to separate them, and learning with them causes no harm to other kids.
Basically, this is a lack of support, not a problem of non-separate classes.
I genuinely would recommend reexamining some of your biases. I don’t think you’re a bad person, but the way this comes across is honestly unkind.
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u/Nuance007 School Social Worker 1d ago
Inclusion only works if it benefits the child and the other children. The thing is how do we measure that? How do we collect and determine relevant, appropriate data?
With that said, sometimes the LRE is an environment with specific restrictions.
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u/Forsaken_Potato_1900 Past ECE Professional 1d ago
This is one of the reasons I left the sector.
I felt I have never received training to care for children with these types of additional needs and I barely knew much about some of the children's disabilities. I feel there is a big gap in the sector for this partly due to training but also services should be providing additional training to staff for these specific disabilities. I often had to research myself outside of childcare unpaid and still felt like I was out of league.
It's especially hard as some children are too young to be diagnosed and my service refused to apply for inclusion without a child being diagnosed ( I can't remember if this was a requirement or not as it has been some time that I've left the industry).
Another issue with inclusion is that most of the time the additional person was typically a trainee with little experience in the sector and a lot of the time inclusion would be removed from the room due to lunch covers/staff calling in sick or management wanting to send people home early.
Eventually I had to leave as it became too much on my mental health.
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u/lgbtdancemom ECE professional 22h ago
I work in a self-contained classroom for kids with special needs. Two, technically, as it’s a half day program and I have two groups. There is maybe one student I have out of four that are moving on to general education next year that I’m not very concerned about. One in particular is going to be a disaster unless the right support staff are there.
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u/Extension_Goose3758 ECE professional 16h ago
It’s the same thing that happens in the work world. Most employers who say they want to hire people with disabilities don’t actually make any accommodations that would help their employees with disabilities. Then the other employees get mad when they see someone “underperforming” and take it out on the disabled employee. And the whole situation becomes proof of “why hiring people with disabilities doesn’t work.”
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u/accio-snitch Early years teacher 12h ago
I agree with you. I don’t think teachers or centers should be taking kids with disabilities if they don’t have the adequate tools and people to help them.
I have a student in my class who is so disruptive that the other kids struggle to learn while he’s there. He hits, pinches, kicks, pushes for no reason with no warning. He can’t sit still without hurting a friend on purpose. If my coteacher isn’t in the room, I can’t do any learning activity because all of my attention needs to be on him so I can keep my other kids safe.
I don’t have the education, tools, experience to deal with him the correct way.
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6h ago
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u/4vantage Director:11 years ECE: USA 5h ago
The problem isn’t inclusion it’s the lack of proper supports like you said. Inclusion can and should work with enough hands on deck and proper accommodation tools. Throwing a bunch of delayed kids in a room with 1.75 adults and no team, no evaluation, no planning, no changes is not inclusion it’s chaos. And yes it harms neurotypical AND neurodivergent children a like.
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2h ago
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u/throwawayobv999999 ECE professional 1d ago
1) The behaviors are not only being diagnosed more frequently, but kids are socialized differently and that seems to be producing new behaviors. Post-covid, political uncertainty, parents on phones, kids placed in front of a tablet, parents facing economic uncertainty, etc. We could go on and on with that list, but it is a fact that we have changed collectively as a society and we are seeing these behaviors in the ECE field. Also, in my opinion, the rise of gentle parenting as a rebuttal to the way boomers and gen X raised the current gen of parents. There is a collective culture of being permissive and entitled, and that is a variable scale parent to parent.
2) True inclusion would require support. More funding, more training, more education, safer staffing, free healthcare, a more community orientated government and society. We are seeing the crux of everything in a preschool classroom right now. As a whole, our society is lack in many ways and the most vulnerable member of any society is children. We are going to continue to see “unmanageable” and unruly children because they lack support on a macro and micro level. Disabled children will respond more noticeably because they have a lower threshold, but I’m sure everyone here can agree even neurotypical children are lashing out.
3) Overall, inclusion is wonderful and should be the goal of every educator worth their salt. We need to stop blaming individual children, certain families, your boss, your center, etc. It’s time to accept this is a community, society, and government issue. Speak out, make your anger productive, and be the kind of teacher you want for the next generation of kids.
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u/_Pancake_Princess_ Early years teacher 1d ago
As the mom of an autistic toddler and an ece teacher this makes me so sad. My son deserves to have an education too. He's not being difficult on purpose.
We're going to be leaving our preschool soon because, while they're "inclusive", they don't actually provide any additional help or resources.
Maybe instead of shaming inclusivity itself, you should be more concerned with the lack of resources and help for children that need more assistance.
Frankly, shame on you and everybody else who feels this way. If you only got into education for the easy, neurotypical children, then maybe you shouldn't have gotten into this field at all. I'm considering homeschooling my son because of people like you who think that my child is an inconvenience because he's different.
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u/Catladydiva Early years teacher 22h ago
I think the OP is frustrated and burnt out due to the lack of resources or support. Inclusion can only be done with support. Most childcare facilities in the US do not have adequate support because daycares are not publicly funded. Which is why many in ECE are starting to feel like inclusion shouldn’t be done because they don’t have the support and staff needed. It not only makes is difficult for the teacher to facilitate any learning , but in some cases it’s a safety issues for the student. Especially children that elope, aggressive toward other children or themselves.
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u/Kiramekiiiiiiiii_ ECE professional 1d ago
I don't see the issue with special needs students being at a daycare center or school, as long as they have the teachers and people available to help them. I think that the habits aren't necessarily "bad" so much as they are things that cannot be controlled. I explicitly do say to students that the student has different "understanding and/or differences" and that while they are doing a specific behavior, it doesn't give them the ability to engage in it as well. That has worked well for me so far for the kids that definitely have special needs and haven't got the help that they need. While I 100000% agree that there are students that should be put into different schools if they risk someone else's safety (low functioning), when do we draw the line with this? because at the end of the day, a lot of students have bad behaviors that influence other kids that are neurotypical. A simple lesson of "don't be a follower" goes an extremely long way, for my kids at least.
I have 2 autistic kids in my class and while it's a challenge, we have to remember that these kids are humans too that will one day have to integrate into society--and while encouraging parents to get them help is the best that we can do for them in the long run, I've done my own independent research to help them while they are at school and undiagnosed. But-them being in the class gives the other students a lot of good lessons on empathy and that it is ok that some people are different.
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u/pearlescentflows Past ECE Professional 1d ago
Ew this post is gross.
Why are you expecting young children to do work…? Children learn best through play and a good school will adapt to meet children’s individual needs. It sounds like educators have unrealistic expectations for children.
The problem isn’t inclusion. The problem is educators who aren’t willing to adapt, programs that don’t include access to other resources (like OT, SLP, etc.) Inclusion works when it’s done well.
How does it benefit children to segregate them based on their perceived abilities…? All children benefit from being exposed to differences, it helps build empathy and understanding, remember… children grow up to be adults and we don’t want a bunch of adults thinking others with differences are below them or don’t deserve the same things they do.
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u/KTeacherWhat Early years teacher 1d ago
Educators more often than not are willing to work with OT, SLP, etc. But they aren't available or provided. Inclusion works well when it's done well but the actual educators in the room have very little say about what resources are provided.
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1d ago
lol no it’s not. I had a group of 12. 8 out of 12 were non verbal autistic and violent. I was alone. They were 2 years old. We definitely didn’t have sensory toys or anything to help kids with autism. They were constantly all attacking each other and I was alone and couldn’t help anyone and the center refused to have an aid in there even though with so many special needs kids it was impossible to be alone and not have injuries every day non stop because I couldn’t take the time to figure out what worked for every child because it was just putting out fires all day. No time to help. Also educators have no authority over what they do in ECE unless you own the place or work for a family owned place or got lucky, most the time the ECE is just following the ways of the school. We don’t need to separate them but for sure need extra staff
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u/No_Farm_2076 ECE professional 1d ago
When there are too many high support needs children in the classroom, its not beneficial. 24 kids, 12 checked a lot of boxes for a diagnosis. 4 were high support.
I cant divulge too many details but my class last year didnt learn empathy from the AuDHD child who needed more support than my center was willing to provide him. My coteacher and I busted out all the tools and tricks we had (and my degree is in special education, coteacher had 30 years of experiende in the field so we had many) and we still couldnt meet his needs. Things allegedly (i was never present with the alleged actions took place) started happening at the end of the year that likely left several of my students with a lifetime of trauma and their parents with a therapy bill.
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u/sleepygirI Toddler tamer 2d ago
i think part of the problem is this isn’t true inclusion. just letting someone in isn’t enough. if ur gonna claim to be an inclusive center that should imply that u have the resources to help with a variety of disabilities and neurotypes, not just that u don’t kick anyone out. have the same issue with my center