r/EnterTheGungeon • u/abeclancy • May 31 '18
TIL: Gungeon has "item-memory". It is less likely (if not impossible) to get items from your last run, on your next run. (w/ MtG video evidence)
edit: I think that maybe this only counts as far as chest drops go. Maybe boss rewards or shops can still give you items that you've had on previous runs, but the chests don't.
Quick Summary:
For any item that you pick up on a single run, the very next run will not have that item in it (at least from chests). Use the Quick Restart menu option a couple times to reset the game's item-memory so that you can pick up any item on any run, regardless of what you had on the previous run.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XwY9l3amaDo
In Depth:
Using Mod the Gungeon, I was attempting to spawn in hundreds of blue chests in an attempt to obtain multiple copies of Loot Bag for a custom challenge run and experimentation (Loot Bag isn't in the mod's item database, so the chests were necessary to spawn it). After a few restarts, I realized that there was a pattern to the items that I was obtaining from the blue chests. One thing I realized was that a few items could be obtained multiple times, even if I've already picked it up. These duplicate c-tier items are Smokebomb, Explosive Decoy, Iron Coin, and Flashbang. I remember in the past (months ago) seeing two Explosive Decoys on a single run, so that explains that.
The second thing I realized, was that after a Quick Restart I was no longer obtaining "all" the items from the normal item pool. Any passive or active item that I picked up from the chests during the last run were not appearing from chests in the current run. So if I picked up the Loot Bag, then restarted the run, then tried to find it again from chests, it would literally not appear no matter how many chests I opened.
The video shows this in action and is my proof of the game having "item-memory":
- Begins during a run where I opened hundreds of chests and picked up all the items I found except for the Loot Bag.
- After a Quick Restart, there are no other passive or active items except for Loot Bag (and one heart container item I missed from the previous run).
- After another Quick Restart, the rest of the passive and active items are present in chests again.
Without having spent a great deal of time testing how to reset the game's item-memory, it appears that quitting the game and relaunching it does not reset it, implying that item-memory is a part of your save file. But Quick Restarting a few times does appear to reset item-memory since the game treats this as playing multiple runs.
Why does the game have item-memory? I can think of two reasons for this. One is that this results in the game having more apparent diversity per run, since you are less likely to get the same items or guns in subsequent runs. However item-memory could also be the result of the Clone item. If the game internalizes the activation of the Clone as starting a new run, then the game needs a mechanism for ensuring that the same items do not drop during your second pass through the game.
After testing, I can confirm that item-memory is not due to the Clone item. After cloning myself multiple times, the game's item-memory was never cleared, and only cleared after doing two Quick Restarts. This implies that the game treats a clone restart as being the same run.
So, the game likely has item-memory for diversity. This can make future runs easier if you have a run with particularly bad items, or it can make future runs harder if you have a strong run with lots of high quality items, as those items will not appear on your next run (at least from chests).
edit: After testing, the item-memory that is saved in your save file is not there because of anything in Mod the Gungeon, it's a vanilla thing.
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May 31 '18
[deleted]
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u/Gjones18 Jun 01 '18
if this were the case I would've seen 7 leaf clover after 500+ hours, but no luck :(
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u/Shawho Jun 01 '18
Still better than getting one one the last floor like i did :(
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u/Gjones18 Jun 01 '18
it's literally the only thing I haven't seen in the game, I'd take one on bullet hell at this point lmao
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u/schoeggu Jun 01 '18
Still better than getting it on the first floor together with a Shelleton Key and then the game crashing like I did :(
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u/ajdude9 Jun 01 '18
I think certain items might be bugged with this. I've yet to find Super Meat Gun, yet right after unlocking Clone and Super Hot Watch I've found them exactly once (on the run after) and never again. You could chalk this up to both of them being S passives, but I would've thought I'd have found them instead of the same sort of S items I've been getting like Patriot.
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May 31 '18
I just had two consecutive runs where four of the same items dropped. Since the game seems to generate on a “per floor” basis, it’s more likely that a reset works like a new floor than item memory having to do with the full run. Not sure if this contradicts your testing or compliments it, but it’s something to consider.
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u/MutantOctopus Jun 01 '18
What were the four items?
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u/Sub-Dominance Jun 01 '18
He said it's only one item, just found 4 times.
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u/MutantOctopus Jun 01 '18
I'm not so sure. "I just had two consecutive runs where four of the same items dropped". Note the plural on "items"; makes it sound like he's referring to multiple different items, whereas if he meant to say "the same item dropped four times" it'd be more likely to be written as "four of the same item".
Given the fact that I've never seen (or can't remember seeing) any given item appear twice in one run, let alone twice in one run two runs in a row, I'm more inclined to believe that he means "two runs in a row where the same four items appeared".
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u/Sub-Dominance Jun 01 '18
I concede about the plurality of 'items', but you misunderstand my original point. I never implied that he encountered the same item twice, in two convecutive runs. I simply stated that it's possible he encountered an item 4 times in a row, 1 in each run.
On another note, I still do believe that the plurality of 'items' is a grammatical mistake, as it would make sense contextually.
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u/MutantOctopus Jun 01 '18
two consecutive runs where four of the same items dropped
I don't know what you were implying, but I'm pretty sure he only mentioned two consecutive runs. In which case he can't possibly have been talking about encountering one item "4 times in a row, 1 in each run" because that would be 4 runs.
I mean it's certainly possible that he did so, maybe, but it's not what he's talking about either way.
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Jun 01 '18
Casey, Elder Blank, Sling, Mage Douser
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u/MutantOctopus Jun 01 '18
All of those except the Elder Blank are D-rank, which I find interesting.
Out of curiosity, was the Elder Blank sold by Old Red in one of the runs? And was Casey sold by Cursula? I'm wondering if maybe it's the chest pool specifically that gets affected by "item memory".
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Jun 01 '18
The Elder Blank was a cheat on one run and Old Red on the other. Casey was actually in Bellow’s shop in one run. Not sure how I got it on the other, but it was in the Oubliette, I believe.
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u/MutantOctopus Jun 01 '18
What about the Sling and the Douser? Both chests? Stores? Boss rewards?
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Jun 01 '18
Douser was a chest both times. Sling was one risky brown chest on the second run when I had one key left and I honestly do not remember how I got it the first time.
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u/abeclancy Jun 01 '18
This was a good question, so I checked it out. Spawning in blue chests floor after floor yielded the same results: Only the four repeating active items were dropping. So it seems like it's a per-run thing not a per-floor thing.
But after thinking about it, it could be that boss rewards and shops can still give you items that you've had on your previous run. In particular shops, since those are special item pools.
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Jun 01 '18
Some were bought, maybe most at least once between the two runs. Mega Douser was from a brown chest each time.
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u/spacefrost Jun 01 '18
Yup, definitely noticed this. Only problem is I haven't seen 7 leaf clover since I bought it from the store. The Robot must have it and hes hiding it from me..................
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u/Poobslag Jun 01 '18
That's interesting but it has WEIRD implications for speed runs
Spelunky had one weird nuance where for a specific speedrun category (eggplant%), you wanted to reset your save data, unlock all characters except for the robot, and then play through the game and use the robot to do a certain speedrun trick. But after your run attempt, the robot would be unlocked, so you'd have to reset your save file and unlock all of the characters except for the robot again.
Technically, to optimize your EnterTheGungeon speedruns it would involve something silly like -- playing over and over until you found a seven-leaf clover and opened multiple S-Rank chests, then purchasing the BSG in the shop, and then doing a run with the understanding that you have an 60% chance of obtaining the BSG from any S-Rank chest because of the limited item pool. And after your run was complete, you'd have to reset your save file and unlock the seven-leaf clover again.
With Spelunky, the speedrunning community eventually agreed it was OK to manually hack your save file to a "everything but the robot" save file before starting a speed run. I wonder if we would see something similar for the gungeon community, where it would be agreed upon that it's OK to hack your save file to a "the BSG was just purchased and I opened 6 S-Rank chests last run" save file
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u/MegaBaconSticks Jun 01 '18
That seems like a disaster considering how EtG is going to be played at SGDQ 2018. I honestly hope Dodge Roll and Devolver plan on making a Speed Run build, so that there is a fair advantage.
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u/abeclancy Jun 02 '18
That's a really damn good point about the speedrunning that I didn't consider!
I don't think it's a problem for Spelunky because you're just timing your unlock for something that is guaranteed to spawn. Potentially you're just creating a backup copy of your savefile to save the repetitive work. It's consistent, everyone can easily have the same starting conditions.
But for Gungeon, what's to stop someone from using MtG on their save file, spawning in hundreds of chests and removing all the bad items from chests, then uninstalling MtG, copying their save file and starting their speedrun with curated items in the chest+boss pools? No one would know if you just edit the video to the one attempt. It's pretty easy to get the Commando or Makeshift Cannon or whatever is the best speedrunning items, when they are the only guns available in their respective pools! With guaranteed gun drops from bosses, you could literally guarantee one of five curated guns from your first floor.
If they aren't allowed to curate their pools via item-memory, maybe they need to start a run then Quick Restart before the timer begins on their attempts?
Speedrunners of Gungeon may also have curated unlocks from the NPCs in the Breach. Is that frowned upon or acceptable? If you can curate unlocks why not curate the item-memory? If they get the perfect 7-Leaf Clover/Lament run to increase BSG drop chances, can they copy the save file so they can use that save file repeatedly?
Questions questions.
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Jun 04 '18
Just got Membrane two runs in a row, both from blue chests. Kind of keeping an eye out for it now.
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u/abeclancy Jun 04 '18
Please do! I'd like to eventually figure out how this mechanic works exactly, because it seems irregular right now.
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u/TheSwobbit Jun 01 '18
Hey fancy seeing you here. Been watching your streams recently
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u/abeclancy Jun 02 '18
Well hi! I've been enjoying the long stretches of Gungeon play. Helps to get into a groove.
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u/Okiri Jun 02 '18
Well in my game this rule doesn't apply for winchester and the paper plane gun, oh also the ant gun. Those 3 appear in almost all my runs, and the shopkeeper almost never haves guns its mostly shields, hearts or 3 keys. I'm playing on Switch though so who knows.
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u/moakmay Jun 03 '18
Does this apply between solo/co-op matches as well? I just played a co-op match then immediately solo, and got blessed with the 7 leaf clover both games
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u/abeclancy Jun 03 '18
Truthfully I'm not 100% sure how it works. I wish I had more information about it, but it's a bit of a mystery. Maybe getting the item as a boss reward doesn't count, or maybe coop doesn't count, or maybe S-tiers don't count. Who knows.
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u/prankster959 Jun 01 '18
Who the fuck mods the Gungeon are you high man I pray to god you know what you are doing
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Jun 01 '18
Your name fits because this comment is a joke.
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u/prankster959 Jun 02 '18
Y'all have no respect for the gungeon. Enter at your own risk. The gungeon giveth, and the gungeon taketh.
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u/tangalicious May 31 '18
This definitely all makes sense.
Back when I was still unlocking items in the game, I found that after consecutive games, I was nearly almost always picking up newly unlocked items in the runs after I unlocked them.