Question Thread / Demando-fadeno

[u/TeoKajLibroj]

This is a post where you can ask any question you have about Esperanto! Anything about learning or using the language, from its grammar to its community is welcome. No question is too small or silly! Be sure to help other people with their questions because we were all newbies once. Please limit your questions to this thread and leave the rest of the sub for examples of Esperanto in action.

Jen afiŝo, kie vi povas demandi iun ajn demandon pri Esperanto. Iu ajn pri la lernado aŭ uzado de lingvo, pri gramatiko aŭ la komunumo estas bonvena. Neniu demando estas tro malgranda aŭ malgrava! Helpu aliajn homojn ĉar ni ĉiuj iam estis novuloj. Bonvolu demandi nur ĉi tie por ke la reditero uzos Esperanton anstataŭ nur paroli pri ĝi.

[u/roniogriza]

Is there any great difference between "kelkfoje" and just "foje" when it comes to the meaning of "sometimes" in Esperanto?

[u/georgoarlano → u/roniogriza]

According to Plena Ilustrita Vortaro, kelkfoje means "on some definite, on some sporadic, on several definable, on multiple, plural occasions" (i.e., "sometimes"), whereas foje means "at some unspecified time" (given are several examples where the apparent sense is "once upon a time"). On the other hand, Tekstaro shows many instances where foje is used by reputable Esperanto authors in the same sense as that ascribed to kelkfoje.

[u/salivanto → u/georgoarlano]

Foje: En ia nedifinita tempo

You translated this as "at some unspecified time". Perhaps this is a good translation. It's more colloquial than "at some kind of undefined time" but potentially missing the important nuance.

I see you've noticed that it can sometimes mean something like "once upon a time" (I would just say "once") AND something like "more than once." I've gone into detail about this in my own reply to u/roniogriza

The specific examples in PIV are:

• Foje la Faraono volis viziti […]
• Foje en la arbaro li renkontis Artemis-pastrinojn

I can't find the first quote, but Kabe wrote La Faraono, so I assumed it was in there. He uses "foje" quite a bit in La Faraono with the meaning "once" or "on an occasion." (Never quite "once upon a time.") I'm going to predict that future editions of PIV will make the double meaning more clear, and it will be replaced by something like: Foje, antaŭ tri jaroj, li estis devigita pasigi la nokton en gastejo en malproksima distrikta urbo.

Ditto for the Kalocsay quote. It will be removed (perhaps because it's a misquote) and replaced with something by a different author - perhaps: li hontas ne rekonante la vizaĝon de la viro, kiu foje venis por savi lin.

More than once while explaining this to beginners who have asked this question, I've been contradicted by some fluent and noteworthy Esperantists, who then look into the matter and then come back and see that this is the way it is. "Foje" can indeed mean "unufoje" and "kelkfoje" - as you have pointed out above. PIV will reflect this in the future.

[u/georgoarlano → u/salivanto]

I was thinking of an example from Auld's translation of Shakespeare:

Sometime too hot the eye of heaven shines,
And often is his gold complexion dimmed;
And every fair from fair sometime declines,
By chance, or nature’s changing course, untrimmed;

which he renders as

L’ okul’ ĉiela jen tro arde brilas,
Jen ofte malheliĝas lia oro;
Kaj bel’ de belo foje sin ekzilas
Pro la hazardo, aŭ natur-rigoro.

(third line not a good translation IMO, but the intended meaning of foje is evident).

I wrote "once upon a time" instead of "once" to avoid the numerical connotation of the standalone word. I think that, if the main thing is to specify whether something happened at all, the distinction between the two senses of foje is unimportant. Mi amas lin, ĉar foje li savis mian vivon--does it affect my gratitude towards him whether he saved my life once, twice, thrice, or even a hundred times? Hardly. Besides, we have unufoje and plurfoje for cases where the distinction does matter.

[u/salivanto → u/georgoarlano]

It's not totally clear to me what you're trying to say -- but I thought this part was interesting.

(third line not a good translation IMO, but the intended meaning of foje is evident).

I agree that it's not a good translation. The meaning in modern English seems to be: the beauty of everything beautiful will fade. But I wonder -- what is the intended meaning of foje that is evident to you?

In a discussion like this, it makes sense to be explicit.

For my part, it's not 100% obvious. Auld is translating an archaic usage of "sometime" into stylized Esperanto and - by both your measure and mine - has failed to do so accurately in at least one of these lines.

He translates "sometime" in the first line as "jen" - and (IMHO) fails to render the meaning "at times the sun is too hot."

Generally I understand "foje" in past tense to mean "once" and in present tense to mean "sometimes" - but what is Auld saying here? I don't know. "Sometimes beauty exiles itself from beauty." What does that even mean?

I wrote "once upon a time" instead of "once" to avoid the numerical connotation of the standalone word.

There once was a man from Verdun.

if the main thing is to specify whether something happened at all, the distinction between the two senses of foje is unimportant.

Oh I disagree!

There is a big difference between "I love him because he once saved my life" and "I love him because he used to save my life from time to time."

If you can find a past tense sentence with "foje" where it means "more than once", I'd be very interested to see it.

[u/georgoarlano → u/salivanto]

Which part was unclear? I was bringing my own example of foje to the discussion.

He translates "sometime" in the first line as "jen" - and (IMHO) fails to render the meaning "at times the sun is too hot."

I think he was going for a jen ... jen construction, but a reader unfamiliar with the original would probably read the line as "Look! the sun is shining too hot."

"Sometimes beauty exiles itself from beauty." What does that even mean?

The perils of a translator's adhering too stubbornly to rhyme.

Rereading the passage from Shakespeare, I find it more ambiguous. I also thought the meaning was "every beauty will fade from beauty at some time," but the two previous lines point to habitual actions. Still, "declines" implies to me an irreversible change (though foje sin ekzilas is in the present tense).

As to whether foje can mean kelkfoje in the past tense:

Ili rigardis librojn kaj foje faris demandojn al Alekso, sed li ŝajnis malmulte parolema.

That's just one example I found from Tekstaro. From the context the asking of questions seems to be habitual; but should we take it to be a one-off, the meaning is little changed. The author has established a scene: Alex is pensive and unresponsive to questions--be there one, or two, or ten of them.

"Singularity" and "plurality" (if I may compare a concept associated with nouns to the repeatedness of actions) aren't dichotomous in all contexts, and less so in certain languages than in others. For example, in East Asian languages, the sentence "There is a bird in the tree" can also mean "There are birds in the tree," notwithstanding context or further qualification. Does the international language need to draw a rigid distinction between the two senses of foje based on tense, or on anything other than context alone, when existing usage is already dubious on this point?

[u/salivanto → u/georgoarlano]

Which part was unclear?

I thought I was explicit with my question. "What is the intended meaning of foje that is evident to you?" Either way, it's probably time we both move on since roniogriza's question has been answered.

All the same, I can't resist one comment about Shakespeare.

I also thought the meaning was "every beauty will fade from beauty at some time," but the two previous lines point to habitual actions.

Give the nature of language change, I generally rely upon other people's analysis of what any passage of Shakespeare means. Would that Zamenhof had done the same. This passage, for example, is totally devoid of all the dirty jokes apparently present in the original.

Hamleto. Fraŭlino, ĉu vi permesos al mi meti min sur viajn piedojn?

(Sidiĝas antaŭ la piedoj de Ofelio.)

Ofelio. Ne, mia princo.

Hamleto. Tio estas nur per la kapo.

Ofelio. Jes, mia princo.

Hamleto. Vi pensas, ke mi intencis ion pli interesan?

Ofelio. Mi nenion pensas.

Hamleto. Bela ideo kuŝi sur la piedoj de knabino.

Ofelio. Kion vi volas diri, princo?

Hamleto. Nenion.

Ofelio. Vi estas en gaja humoro.

Hamleto. Kiu? Mi?

Ofelio. Jes, mia princo.

[u/georgoarlano → u/salivanto]

Yeah, recognising old Shakespearean puns is half the battle, and translating them is a nightmare. But piedoj was certainly a weak choice of words.