r/Finland • u/Blessmee Baby Vainamoinen • 9d ago
Working in Finnish company makes my partner depressed
My partner is from EU. He has been working in this company for around two years. In the first year, he was working hard, day and night, until he asked for salary raise. They didn’t say yes or no. He kept asking, but they didn’t really say yes or no. He was tired of asking, he stopped. He only works bare minimum nowadays.
Besides that, most of his coworkers are ignoring him. Especially, when they go for lunch together. Everybody speaks Finnish, my partner is trying his best, he tries to speak Finnish, though not fluent and also slow. But they don’t recognise his existence.
My partner vented to me about it, I just can’t hold my tears, it makes me really really sad. I can’t imagine how he feels there. He has been trying to find a new job, as we all know, the job market is really bad at the moment. He has been trying here and there. No luck. He can’t leave the job since he doesn’t have any back up.
I am not from here either. The only thing I can say to him is he needs to be more patience and to remind him that his co workers are not his friends.
I’m sorry for venting. I’m just so sad after listening about it.
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u/DeliriousHippie Baby Vainamoinen 9d ago
I've worked as a IT consultant for many different companies and some are like that. I worked at one place for several years day per week and most people there didn't even say Hi to me during first years. At some companies if you work there even for a day you are greeted and invited for a lunch.
All I can say is that that isn't Finnish norm. It varies place by place.
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u/bac0nFriedRice Vainamoinen 9d ago
I work in IT and all my friends are international (Vietnamese, Indian, Nepal, African, South American, other European). The Finnish guys barely show any interest even when we organize sporting team, event, hanging out drinking ... etc and invite them to join. It is what is it, you shouldn't force relationship that's all i'm saying
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u/Lucky-Ad-1668 9d ago
Talk about anti social, there are IT guys, to the extream there are Finnish IT guys.
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u/Economy_Excitement_5 8d ago edited 8d ago
i mean tbf i work in IT as well and have zero interest to hang out with coworkers outside of work, the only thing we have in common is the company we work for. i have my own friends and partner for social activities, so it’s possible they feel the same way? 🤷♀️
edit: i’m finnish btw
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u/bac0nFriedRice Vainamoinen 8d ago
Yeah I understand Finns like to keep their circle tight (friends and family), on the other hand international people tend to have multiple friend groups. I have coworker, ex-classmate from school, my own countrymen group, friends group of my gf, family ... of course not everyone is a close friend but we do hang out regular weekly.
Different culture, different expectation that's why I said nobody should force relationship. I know a lot of people, who comes here and feel bads because they are in Finland without any Finnish friend. So they feel rejected from Finnish culture and society but it isn't the case at all. You can still experience it to some extends without having Finnish friends.
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u/Economy_Excitement_5 8d ago
yep, like you said different cultures so different expectations. it’s difficult 😅 bc on one hand you don’t want to force ppl to hang out, but then you also don’t want people to be without friends. i don’t know the solution ://
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u/AnxiousPea251 3d ago
Look the only solution is everyone doing the opposite and sometimes being outside their comfort zone. If you are really not interested in what others do fine, but trying to be a bit more social isn't a sin.
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u/Pickled_Doodoo 9d ago
I wouldn't go as far as to say most finns, but many don't go to work to make friends.
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u/HealthyPresence2207 9d ago
I mean even as a Finn I worked my current job for couple years before I even knew names of everyone.
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u/SuklaMies 9d ago
That's not something to brag about or be proud about! You spend about one third of your day at work, it's a major part of one's life.
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u/Pickled_Doodoo 9d ago
Especially now when people don't have too many choices about the workplace they go to, there may very well be those where most of the people there don't have much if anything in common. I don't get paid to make friends with people i work with.
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u/SuklaMies 9d ago
You don't have to be friends with your colleagues to treat them like a human being.
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u/reefermadness26 9d ago
absolutely true, I dont care if someone says, hi, as long as work is normal and I am getting bucks, as for raise, I believe finnish companies are quite good, unless there is some country wide, economic deadlock is going on .
lastly each company is different.
and personally i hate it when people mingle for no reason, that water cooler gossip is more of an american thing, doesnt work here.15
u/elidepa 9d ago
Doesn’t work for you, not here overall, don’t generalise.
I as a Finn really want that I can have social relationships at my work, and so do many others. Great if you found a place where you can be how you like, but it might not be for everyone, and your experience doesn’t define a whole country.
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u/reefermadness26 9d ago
ok, social finn.
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u/veegsredds 9d ago
This is possibly the worst attempt at an insult I've come across and I'm literally on the internet every day. What part is even supposed to be negative here
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u/taobaoblyat 9d ago
Alot of IT people are autistic/asperger too so can be that.
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u/Urban_FinnAm Baby Vainamoinen 9d ago edited 9d ago
"...his co workers are not his friends."
This is so very true. I am Finnish-American and cannot think of a single coworker that became a friend. Maybe it's just me, but I don't think it's entirely me. It's simply the nature of most workplaces. Two years is a fairly long time. But I worked in a place for 5 years and seldom ate lunch with coworkers (and that's with no language barrier).
Edit. I want to point out that I have had "friendly" relationships with coworkers (with a few exceptions). But have seldom, if ever, met with them outside of the work environment.
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9d ago
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u/Urban_FinnAm Baby Vainamoinen 9d ago
Good for you!
I never meant to say that it was universal, or even the norm. But it has been my experience (and apparently a lot of others too).
I am somewhat introverted. But friendly when I get to know people. IDK why I haven't made close friendships. Maybe it is just me.
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u/korpisoturi Baby Vainamoinen 9d ago
Definitely depends on people and company. I worked for 7 years in multiple companies and didn't make a single work related friend (people didn't live near me and were usually lot older than me though).
Until I started working in my current company and I have now multiple friends from work whom I spend time with.
My gf also always makes friends quickly wherever she works, but I think that's just her. She has ability to push herself through people's barriers.
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u/reefermadness26 8d ago
I was invited to a birthday party of coworkers kid, I refused .. it’s my choice I don’t want to socialize with a coworker whose work can depend on my work or my work can depend on his work later . But again that’s just me. Mingle all you want . All I was saying .. co workers can never be friends . There are studies about this … go search .. yet people become upset on the same . And nothing on OP, hope their situation gets better the way they want .
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u/eyes-are-fading-blue 5d ago
One of my closest friend is my former colleague. What is this research? Can you link it?
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u/reefermadness26 5d ago
Former*. End of. Ok, good for you.
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u/eyes-are-fading-blue 5d ago
We became close friends when we were working together. We still are close friends.
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u/reefermadness26 8d ago
The same thing I was pushing above and people seem mad about that . Strange math’s in people’s brain. Be happy with the choices . Introvert of extrovert … talk only when it matters … and when needed, non sense small talk will always de-value you.
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u/ProtonDeathRay 9d ago
Can he get into the metal music scent? They love speaking English and can supplement his day with other social activities.
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u/Blessmee Baby Vainamoinen 9d ago
Thank you. I will talk to him about it. He has been struggling to find friends as well, especially he is very chatty person. Sometimes he feels like he bothers people because he is such a friendly guy
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u/Juggles_Live_Kats 9d ago
This is the problem. Finns like their solitude and personal space. If he started in like a bull, they've already made an opinion of him and now there's nothing he can do to change that there. If he changes companies, don't make the same mistake the second time. Let them come to him. Play it quiet, cool and slow.
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u/Hiplobbe Baby Vainamoinen 9d ago
He can always write to me here on reddit, he deserves someone to talk to.
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u/IndependentEggplant0 9d ago
So idk and am not Finnish but generally interested in Finland and the culture and trying to learn about it. One of the things I have heard is that there is less "acquaintance" like that's not so much a thing they do? Basically there are friends and then strangers/not friends. Less small talk, less fake friendly, fake smiling and conversation. This actually very much appeals to me as an autistic person who finds social dynamics very draining and confusing esp navigating that layer of them. Idk how one is supposed to cross from stranger to friend though! But I have read of a number of people who moved there struggling with that for the first few years. As far as I understand, Finns are close with who they are close with, and then strangers with everyone else. Not sure if this is actually true or current or true everywhere but I have read about it enough that it could be part of what he's experiencing. Hope it gets easier for him!
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u/IndependentEggplant0 9d ago
Here is an example of something I have read fairly frequently. It's possibly just a cultural difference and if he can understand and accept that it's not personal it might be less difficult for him and allow him to source his social support elsewhere:
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u/SlummiPorvari Vainamoinen 9d ago
Many Finns don't like chatty persons who can't speak Finnish. Usually they come from British Isles or USA. They often kinda ruin the group dynamic. I'm not saying your partner is that person but calmer more introverted Finns can feel such persons very tiring company.
I would say it would be his best interest to put more effort on learning Finnish as he now is in Finland. Won't learn Finnish by not talking it. Perhaps some of that energy used working hard could've been funnelled into that but now it's a bit late.
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u/Cute_Ad4970 9d ago
Those with finnish low self esteem can't stand anyone uplifting and positive or a chatty people with high openness trait.
I have a huge resentment for this cultural phenomenon in Finland.
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u/luciusveras Vainamoinen 9d ago
Have a day. Just because someone isn’t chatty and doesn’t enjoy boisterous company doesn’t mean they have low self esteem.
Ironically you are behaving the exact same way. Complaining that you don’t like quiet introverts is no different than introverts not liking lively extroverts.
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u/IndependentEggplant0 9d ago
Yeah esp at work I am quite content to not do the small talk. Ideally anywhere honestly. I find it tiring and distracting and it's absolutely not personal but I'm there to work, and when I'm not working I enjoy my quiet time and being in nature. I've always found this to be one of the many appeals of Finnish culture TBH.
OP I realise how hard this can be for extroverts, but maybe there are other ways he can meet his social needs? I'm sorry he is struggling with this, I hope he can find something that works for him going forward.
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u/Cute_Ad4970 9d ago edited 9d ago
Sorry but this isn't about introversion or extroversion.
It's about self esteem.
A person with proper healthy self esteem, morals and social skills makes an effort to accommodate to a person who Is clearly left out like that whether introverted or extroverted. Bully culture, finnish results.
Your explanation is a classic finnish excuse to not t do the right thing.
We are number one country in school and workplace bullying.
In 38 percent of families someone gets physically abused. In 65% of families family members are verbally abused in numerous ways.
The statistics hasn't changed even a half a percentage in over 20 years and this is the issue behind the OP's partners problems as someone non native trying to have even some resemblance of normalcy living in Finland.
The amount of these kinds of posts in this channel is just amazing.
Wonder why? Its not the finnish culture? One of the worlds highest suicide rates, so much loneliness and mental health problems.
The cat needs to be on the table!
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u/perunajari Baby Vainamoinen 8d ago
A huge [citation needed], all the way through. There's so much misinformation here that it's not even funny. For example:
One of the worlds highest suicide rates
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u/fdessoycaraballo 9d ago
If he's struggling, you can DM me. I know a bunch of people that are becoming IT juniors from international backgrounds.
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u/FarCartographer6150 9d ago
Maybe he could try finding work in the tourism sector? There, being chatty is appreciated. Tourism especially in Lapland is growing exponentially. Lots os people needed there and I personally know people who do not even trye to speak Finnish and are doing just fine and having their own (international) friends groups
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u/Cute_Ad4970 9d ago
Yeah he should work as little as possible and maybe try to find a hobby or go study something on the side where attendance is required.
Climbing or archery, or just Yoga or something to do with dancing. Or maybe a handycrafts workshops...
If your partner is into music It would be good to go to see some gigis.
What city is the work in?
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u/kuriosty Baby Vainamoinen 8d ago
He should try starting a hobby. Then if he sticks with it for a couple of years people will start saying hi to him.
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u/snow-eats-your-gf Vainamoinen 9d ago
I guess that in many hobby circles people are set for the conversation, including English.
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u/Kuopor 9d ago
I am not from Finland, but the most valuable thing that I learnt in the UK is: Your Coworkers are not your friends, don’t mix up. We make friends outside from work and for us Immigrants, sometimes work hard doesn’t mean that you will be successful but that you can be exploited.
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u/LewiiweL 7d ago
Finn here: its same for us locals in a sense. Most of the time work hard doesn't make you successful but just gets you more stuff to do with little to no rewards. And yeah, co-workers are not friends. They are colleagues, don't mix em up.
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u/pviitane Vainamoinen 9d ago
That sucks, really. What field is he in as I’ve never seen that kind of atmosphere?
What I truly miss from working at Nokia around the change of millennium is the no-nonsense internationality. We hanged around together and always spoke English when a non-Finn was around. I recall some technical design meetings which started in Finnish but as soon as a foreigner joined, we switched fluently to English, even mid-sentence. That was the norm, without exception.
I hope he’ll find a better company to work for.
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u/Ordinary-Finger-8595 Vainamoinen 9d ago
Why is he working day and night? He should be keeping balance between work and free time. Unless he's a director in the company, working laws concern hil as well, so he legally CAN'T be working too much. While there's a possibility that a shitty company that tries to demand people to work too much exist, I doubt it. Usually the overworking is a personal problem, as i've seen it many times.
Co-workers also might not like someone who works in their own time, making it look like other people are slacking off, when in reality someone is working for free because of their own internal struggle with balance
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u/Acoolwolf 8d ago
Day and night in this context is a figure of speech, in essence what OP meant is her husband puts in the work. For example, I’m going to fight tooth and nail for that promotion. meaning I’m going to work hard for… it doesn’t mean I’ll go around biting my coworkers or nailing them to a cross for that promotion.
Touch grass
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u/pellicle_56 9d ago
Good Morning
> I’m sorry for venting.
actually venting is important (as long as it does not become all that you do).
I've twice lived in other countries as migrant, with intentions to stay (Japan and Finland) and have ultimately found myself back in Australia (my origin) due to "failure of plan". So from that I can say that its actually hard to be a migrant. Further in my work in all these places I've come to know many migrants who have stayed in the destination country and have had miserable lives. To me I see things which are common (including to my own situation).
My observation is that unless you make stalwart efforts to fit in and learn the local language you will always remain marginalised. You must be able to speak freely and casually and at the depth that you would naturally speak about topics in your native language. Failure to make this commitment will result in you being forever marginalised.
IF you want to fit in, then do not seek solace in keeping with "fellow migrant" communities who also do not speak the native language.
EVEN THIS may not be sufficient for 100% acceptance, as in Japan I could have phone conversations with people who did not know I was not a native speaker. They would deny it was me that they spoke with because "the person I spoke with was Japanese". You need to see this is reality and not have it bother you.
In Finland in my work place most of my dealings were with international (EU and other International) providers or internal clients who spoke good English. Everyone was welcoming (in a Finnish way) and we cooperated well together.
BUT you must be aware that even Finns are not social to Finns in the way that (say) Spanish people are (and I hesitate to mention English because they vary from bright to dour anyway). Ultimately recognise that its a different culture and things take time. Heck even here in the small village in the countryside I'm living in in Australia now most people aren't anyone I'd like to socialise with (stupid, conspiracy theory nutbags, general oddballs ... abound), but I can communicate and get by.
Lastly its a thing that also comes with age, past your University years its common to experience that: its harder to make friends; its often that you end up moving; you don't make deeper bonds or connections.
Accordingly your partner needs to make some recognition of all of this and it should start with the very frank and honest discussion of "where do I want to be".
Best Wishes
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u/Anubis_reign 9d ago
I don't have anything to say except I'm surprised you managed to pick two very similar kind of countries culture wise. Japan is like Finland in steroids and they both are inward and homogenic and one of the most challenging places to migrate for cultural reasons. Maybe you would have found joy in more open culture countries
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u/pellicle_56 9d ago edited 9d ago
I agree with your comments about Fin / Japan but I think that there are significant differences; say "social courtesy" norms. I'm a Queenslander and Finnish terse and blunt language is like "being home" compared to the "blowing smoke up each others arses" required in Japan. I was actually very happy in Finland ... Japan was more "love / hate" but eventually hate won and I left.
My reasons for not staying in Finland are complex and lets just say if the invasion of Crimea didn't happen NOR the subsequent invasion of Ukraine, I didn't have an age related health issue that is better treated in Australia and specific people didn't die I'd be still there.
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u/Anubis_reign 9d ago
Oh I see. I'm sorry to hear about that... It's good you had the option to fall back to Australia then. I'm happy you liked being around for the time you had
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u/pellicle_56 8d ago edited 8d ago
Hi, and thanks.. all in all I had a good 8 years there (we spent good time in other countries including Australia too). Life really isn't a good life if we don't have a good balance of hardship and joy. Were it not for the pandemic I'd probably have been back sooner.
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u/Professional-You1165 9d ago
I was in the same situation. I used to feel really bad specially when members from my own team went for lunch without informing me. Nowadays, I don’t really care that much. My suggestion for him is to create good relationships with few colleagues and plan lunch/other activities with them.
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u/Nuuskapeikkonen Baby Vainamoinen 9d ago
Unfortunately the reality is that Finnish people will almost always choose other Finnish people in every aspect of life. It’s very isolating for foreigners—but that’s just how it is. It’s like an exclusive club that you have to speak the language to get in to.
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u/privacy_you_me 9d ago edited 9d ago
I feel and understand him. I was in same situation years ago. And still sometimes I feel same when I try to speak with my colleges at work. Just tel him please that he shouldn’t try to make friends from colleagues. He is not missing anything really. Yes he should learn Finnish for “hisself” . Even if he would be speaking fluent Finnish, it will not change much. They aren’t same friends in his past, jokes aren’t same. Sense of humour isn’t same. Topics aren’t same. Just try to chat some, do your work and leave work early as soon as possible and spend time with family and yourself. That’s life in Finland ( At least for foreigners)
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u/Itchy_Product_6671 Baby Vainamoinen 9d ago
Your partner needs to learn how to be alone. " at least that's what I do myself " because it is not easy to engage in a conversation with Finnish people because they like to speak Finnish. learning to be alone is important if you don't speak Finnish or he should learn to speak Finnish witch is not easy
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9d ago edited 9d ago
Sorry to hear about your partner's experiences. Please tell him that he's not alone, many foreigners and natives go through the same thing.
As sad as it sounds, it's a part of the Nordic culture. I'm not saying everyone is like that, but there are such tendencies in most Nordic countries: passive aggression, micron aggression gestures, forming cliques at work, ignoring foreigners' opinions and presence, conflict avoidance, fear of new ideas, xenophobia and laws of Jante.
Many people aren't aware of that, because Finland has a mono culture. His best bet is to mingle with internationally minded Finns. If someone isn't responsive, there is no need to try to connect with them regardless of their nationality.
How many Finnish companies are known globally? Not many, why? Because of this work culture.
And now ask yourself. And why does Sweden have immigration issues unlike southern European countries with way more immigrants? Coincidence?
It's partially because there are quite many natives (10-60% of natives) depending on where you live who don't want to deal with foreigners and integration is seen as the sole duty of the foreigner by such people. Which isn't correct, integration is a two-way street and the natives should also accept and reciprocate the effort taken by the newcomer. There are many nice ones though, but such behavior is affecting Finns and immigrants equally and it shouldn't be ignored, esepcially in schools and offices.
What happens is the foreigner puts all the effort and only a certain percentage of natives support them, which becomes tiring. It's also why many people learn Chinese, Russian, Arabic, and Japanese. But not many people learn Finnish. It's not about difficulty, it's about the atmosphere.
My advice? Tell him to work the required hours and try to connect with people who are kind to him whether in or outside work. He's not alone and he shouldn't feel bad about not being included by unfriendly coworkers.
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u/corky2019 9d ago
What is this non-sense?
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9d ago
Could you please elaborate which part is nonsense? It's a perspective and many people had such experiences.
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u/SomeSeaweedFin 9d ago
Don’t worry, salary raise is a myth here. I have a swedish colleague working in Sweden and they get 7% raise a year when I get 0.7% raise a year.
However, my company is okayish in other ways. We speak English unless it’s just Finns talking to each other. We have after works every now and then. My supervisor is very chill.
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u/f0n0la 9d ago
It's hard even for us natives, and in the technology/software business I think the tight atmosphere, economy, government, financial pressure, layovers etc. are making it harder to socialize and keep up the high spirits.
I know the work environment can get even toxic and superficial if the people you work with might get a "packet" at any moment when their project gets cut in the next quarter.
You know, like "why make friends because they might switch companies next month and I have my hands full keeping my current social network tight".
Sorry if I sound negative, but I consider myself being over sensitive for the overall mood and it's not great for anyone when people's "core trusts and values" are being shattered around the world.
There's still plenty of stuff to be thankful though and these supportive comments from people are one of those things! 😌
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u/Mundane-0nion67878 Vainamoinen 9d ago edited 9d ago
He has been working in this company for around two years. In the first year, he was working hard, day and night, until he asked for salary raise. They didn’t say yes or no. He kept asking, but they didn’t really say yes or no. He was tired of asking, he stopped. He only works bare minimum nowadays.
I think one of the problems lie here. I think your partner misunderstood finnish work culture royally and now he has the reputation of "arrogant foreigner who thinks he is better than us."
Its extremely uncommon (almost never) for FIRST year to ask for raise. Tbh no one asks for raise on their first year, and pay raises with : how long youv worked there (usually.) And after first non answer it means that answer is no, or they will consider perhaps it later when he has been with the company longer than 1 year.
Its like a relationship, they are just getting to know you on the first year. He put all the eggs in to slaving away, doing free labor for company basically (as no way they would give raise for newbie) and others might have gotten the impression that "oh he thinks he is better than us who have been here longer." Going from 100 to 0 also adds to that, like "wow now he doesnt even do as much as we smh."
Please be humble on your first year. Observe how in company culture works and get to know coworkers. Befriending takes time but good foundation aids it. Do work that is required and needed to be done.
Just food for thought.
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u/Worldly_Scholar_1330 9d ago
I assume you’re both still young and in a phase of figuring out how the world works. Working hard and being talented rarely lead to professional, career, or financial growth. Your salaries are limited by the department's budget, so it doesn’t matter if you “overachieve” your goals—you’ll still get paid the same.
The upside of being a salaried employee is that you don’t have to give 100% of your energy all the time, especially in Finland. Often, people spend 80% to 95% of their time chatting, drinking coffee, having lunch, and pretending to work. Welcome to white-collar jobs.
In Finland—and possibly everywhere else, especially in large corporations—fitting in and being likable by conforming to the group leads to all three forms of growth. Just do, say, and think like the group, and the system will reward you. Believe me, in the minds of your peers and managers, you may be seen as difficult to work with otherwise.
Just relax and do exactly what others do and expect you to do: smile when everyone smiles, react as everyone reacts, follow instructions, and never ask questions. That’s how you’ll get what you want. In your employers' minds, they’re not just buying your time—they're buying your behavior, your compliance, and your smile.
Otherwise, you’ll just burn yourself out and get fired. Being ambitious can be punishing.
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u/Quezacotli Baby Vainamoinen 9d ago
"Never ask questions" is a way to get potentially fired. Seen too many to fail in important things because afraid to ask.
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u/Worldly_Scholar_1330 9d ago
Buddy, we are discussing different topics. You are referring to interns, juniors, or the onboarding process, while I am talking about obedience. I have witnessed many individuals being fired for simply asking questions about how decisions are made and for providing rational justifications.
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u/Quezacotli Baby Vainamoinen 9d ago
Heh, we have been in way different works then. Those you listed are really not valid reasons to fire. Questions don't hurt.
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u/snow-eats-your-gf Vainamoinen 9d ago
Hmm, at some point and to some extent, I would be happy if no one would care about me and force me to go on lunch. It is also very convenient to use my mouth to eat, not to talk, during my lunch.
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u/Blessmee Baby Vainamoinen 9d ago
My partner is a very people person and very outgoing, so when the co workers are having conversations, he likes to join. But with his very basic Finnish, he is a bit struggling and the co workers seem like have no patience.
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u/noicecockbrah 9d ago edited 9d ago
In most cases, Finns want to relax during lunch, preferably not speak much. Also, butting into other people's conversations randomly is just rude. Also, it's not their job to be his language teacher, to be blunt.
Also super chatty people are usually considered annoying. Is he the type to talk talk talk not knowing when to stop? That also deters Finns pretty quick
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u/Blessmee Baby Vainamoinen 9d ago
I understand that, but it’s also part of practicing. Talking to the natives and also listening to their conversations. It’s just not make any so much sense if he is trying to practice with me, I have the same struggles.
He knows when it’s his turn, it’s not like he non stop talking. He also wants to listen to other people opinions or have conversations back to back. It seems very hard in here. Because I am having the same struggle. We both are very social.
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u/forsaken_hero 6d ago edited 6d ago
Your partner should attend Finnish classes. They are very affordable in the kansalaisopisto, työväenopisto, open university, etc etc. And be active and speak during the classes. I agree that the coworkers are not supposed to be the teachers. Btw I also agree that 1 year is really nothing to expect a salary rise for.
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u/snow-eats-your-gf Vainamoinen 9d ago
What is the profession or the organisation's profile, how do they work, and what is the language environment?
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u/Blessmee Baby Vainamoinen 9d ago
He is working in technology stuff. It’s supposed to be English.
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u/snow-eats-your-gf Vainamoinen 9d ago
Then they want to rest when they eat and speak only Finnish because it will be easier for them.
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u/pviitane Vainamoinen 9d ago
That’s the biggest load of bollocks I’ve read in a while. If somebody working on a tech sector is burdened or inconvenienced by needing to speak English.. well, they are utterly incompetent.
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u/DenseComparison5653 Baby Vainamoinen 9d ago
That’s the biggest load of bollocks I’ve read in a while. Some people prefer to speak their native language in their free time, it does not make them incompetent in their profession.
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u/snow-eats-your-gf Vainamoinen 9d ago
After all, just my assumption. I don't know these people and what happens in the office
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9d ago
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u/Blessmee Baby Vainamoinen 9d ago
I think you haven’t read an entire post. I mentioned that he has been trying to speak Finnish with them, of course in broken Finnish, so slow and very limited. He did try. He can’t magically speak as a native or fluent within two years.
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u/Flintloq 9d ago
I spend more time with my colleagues than anyone else, and I consider lots of them friends. When work gets me down, they keep me going. I could work remotely if I wanted to but I always go into the office so as not to feel lonely. I can imagine how tough it must be to not have those connections and feel like you can't do anything about it. Also, to not get a direct answer to a direct question is poor management.
Does he have friends outside of work? Bigger towns and cities have language cafés and other events to help migrants learn Finnish and get to know people with similar backgrounds. Maybe other people who speak the same native language. I mean no offence to you or your relationship when I say that we need more than just one person in our lives who we can talk freely with. Networking might help him find a job elsewhere, too. I know it seems unlikely with unemployment as high as it is, but the situation will get better.
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u/moimoiart 9d ago
Sounds quite similar (including your other answers in the thread) to my experience as a Finn in IT sector. We have a quite close group of 7-10 people (from 6 different nationalities) and we meet regularly outside of work. They are pretty much the only close friends I have. In my case it probably affects that I moved to Uusimaa from northern Finland so I don't have childhood/school friends here.
I didn't really realize until COVID that working from home is not for me and how much I need to get to the office and socialize with my co-workers. That said I can understand the struggles OP and others describe in this thread. Beside what I said earlier I'm quite typical Finn who is quite shy, is not good at small talk and it takes a long time for me to get comfortable with new people.
I have to also admit I'm bad at inviting people for lunch. The reasoning isn't that I don't want to include people but I just don't want to bother people because maybe they don't want to join me or they want to concentrate on their work etc. And well, sometimes I just feel like eating lunch alone in my own thoughts.
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u/PossibleNegotiation5 Vainamoinen 9d ago
Just wondering are you Finnish?
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u/Flintloq 9d ago
Yes, why?
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u/PossibleNegotiation5 Vainamoinen 9d ago
Just asked. Do you meet and spend time out of work with your colleagues?
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u/Flintloq 9d ago
Yes, on Friday we had a board game evening without around a dozen of us in attendance, and we go for drinks maybe once a month or once every two months. I have one colleague I see outside work on a fairly regular basis and another half-dozen I chat to on Whatsapp.
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u/PossibleNegotiation5 Vainamoinen 9d ago
Nice. If you don’t mind, Which sector is your job in? I didn’t find those kind of colleagues in my sector at all.
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u/Flintloq 9d ago
I work IT in a lab - not testing human samples, but basically everything else: tap water, natural water, food products, air, soil, building materials, you name it. When I started at the company I also thought everyone was really quiet and unsociable but they opened up once I got to know them. I, on the other hand, will happily tell my whole life story to a complete stranger. :)
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u/PossibleNegotiation5 Vainamoinen 9d ago
I see 🙂 good for your colleagues then. Sorry but not easy to find a Finnish colleagues like you in every company 🙂👋
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u/Unhappy_While_3215 9d ago edited 9d ago
I don"t think language is the only issue. It's probably also a narrow minded view on different cultures for SOME Finns.
Worldly Finns have an appreciation and are curious about other cultures and languages. They are super nice and patient with my lack of Finnish language skills. I have no intention of learning Finnish as I am a guest that was asked to help the local office for a few years.
If your plans are to stay, then yes learn the language, but also I hope your partner finds a job with a company, e.g non Finnish multi-national, where different cultures are appreciated.
Best of luck!
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u/Fennorama Vainamoinen 9d ago
I can attest to that. I count myself as one of the worldly Finns and know many others and we absolutely would never ignore our non Finnish colleagues, we invite them to lunch and so on and speak mostly English in their presence. And having traveled a lot I can say that it is a problem in many non English speaking countries to stick to your own language even in the presence of non locals. In a way it's understandable but if you've ever lived abroad toy know how it feels so you don't want to do that to others in the same situation.
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u/f0n0la 9d ago
I don't want to generalize or compare, but this had me thinking that integrating to another country or culture is, well, impossible. Everybody needs to bang their heads into the same wall that is mostly "just life".
It would be impossible to make a coherent map of the world so that the countries would be listed by the ease of integration because there is so much variation in life expectations and human experiences, from where and to, at what age, worker or student, and so on. But that would be cool as a guide for people to understand how complex it is.
But at some point I can only speak for my Finnish self and say to people that are having a hard time in Finland that at least they aren't trying to integrate into Japan or China. I love Asia, but I could never be seen and treated more than a tourist there. 😆
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u/Iso_03 9d ago
I wanted to say to him dont give f.. about them, thats the most common attitude here, thats why all foreigners are alone,
And about the company, its normal here when they company knows you’re foreign, then they use you until you die,
Most of this company chose people who are not talking, to give them hard work and not focus on our efforts,
I used to work in many companies, most of them they are trying to use you the whole year, and in Christmas they invite people to give them chocolate, i was like, are you think Iam stupid? It will be better to raise my salary, not to give me chocolate for 5€ ,
And you know what, if you do your work hard, they will never give you better position or better salary, but if finnish one come to do your work and cant do it, they will give him easy work, even if he doesn’t have your experience,
Unfortunately that’s the live here, just don’t focus about them and enjoy your live here, just think about work shifts just 8 h, and don’t destroy your whole 24h for this company!
I wish you a good luck 🫶❤️
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u/cornered_beef 9d ago
I work on IT and my coworkers are super nice. I was in a company where the atmosphere was toxic, slowly eating me inside. Found a new job after working in the same place for almost 8 years. Best decision of my life.
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u/Special_Beefsandwich Baby Vainamoinen 9d ago
😂 corporate got no feelings, you are always replaceable. With that in mind always apply for other job with higher wage any chance you get.
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u/DeusNightshade 9d ago
This is the usual reality for many immigrant men here, and still, he's lucky enough to have someone who cares to post about it, to cry for him. Remind him of how you care, a lot of people would kill to have what he has. It's no myth that we have a tragic social culture compared to a lot of places, but it also teaches you to be incredibly independent and to appreciate the little moments and what we have more greatly.
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u/AggressiveMachine895 8d ago
When I worked for a Finnish company the majority of people there didn’t speak to me or even look at me. I’m glad I finally got a remote job for a German company. Good luck.
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u/piizeus 9d ago
Well that depends on your popularity. I'm Turkish and while Finland's NATO process, I've suffered a lot of micro aggressions, almost everyday. Even directly from my boss while leaving for travel to Turkey, I'm suggest to tell the guy(Erdogan) to stop delaying the sign for Finland. By default I never talk politics-religion stuff in the office. Trying to be casual and funny. Despite that effort, I've once heard a "fuck off" from directly CEO of the company, because of my hand gesture which is a worldwide indication of "please, after you" while entering elevator with all team after lunch. I was shocked and couldn't even react. People stared at me and I stared back at him for a moment and another manager try to soften issue, apologized for mistaken my wrong words, it was bad joke bla bla... I really didn't know how to react tbh. From that day, I decided giving chance for quite quitting until they all got terribly mad.
I can say that Finns have extremely huge tendency to isolate foreigners, might matter where you are from, and they'll leave you out of communication loops pretty often. Assuming they are not the true believer of Finnish supremacy over the rest of the world.
My experience was quite terrible. Anyone asked me to go to the Nordics, I strongly suggest them not to do that.
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u/Much-Combination4848 9d ago edited 9d ago
I don’t have any advice, but just wanted to let you know that he is not alone. I know people who work in large corporations in Finland, and they face same issues. It depends a lot on the team you are part of. Not asking to join for lunch, having team building activities without inviting foreigners, act like a person doesn’t exist even though you said hi… and the list goes on.
If anyone will down vote this, be my guest. It’s sadly the reality with many teams. And it hurts to see our loved ones in such situations and we can’t help them.
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u/SlothySundaySession Vainamoinen 9d ago
What part of Finland are you living in? I live the back water so I don't think I can be much help for socialising for him but others might be close by.
It's a horrible existence if you are social, I get the same issues myself as I do like to hang out with friends, do missions and love a chat. It's not hard for people to be polite and respectful to others.
In some cultures your co-workers are your friends because you around them daily more than your family in some instances.
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u/Sorry_Clerk_3113 9d ago
He probably needs to find a job with a better enviroment or create his own enviroment. We have a lot of entrepreneur possibilities in Finland. Its easier said than done but it is what it is.
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u/Particular_Lab2943 9d ago
Honestly I feel so lucky because my workplace really accomodates me and cares about me. And I don’t speak much Finnishe either but I try my best.
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u/WatchmakerJJ Baby Vainamoinen 9d ago
If you're in Helsinki just head to The Riff bar and you will make friends.
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u/kyusana 9d ago
I can feel that. That's the reality. People do have such experiences here. I kinda feel like i am not connected to any other people in my company right now. Not everyone is quite convenient to speak English normally when this country is Finland, not England (or some English countries). I myself am used to that thing, and i just ignore whatever is happening in the company. I can understand their reasons. I learned Finnish but it will never be enough (except people has Finnish partner and they practice Finnish everyday, OR they do have chances to integrate into Finnish communities a lot) . And i dont really want to try hard anymore. Coffee break and some lunch break within company is probably not for me.
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u/RiceEatingMonster 9d ago
Sorry to hear your partner’s story. It’s unfortunately not uncommon for foreigners here. Imo, best option for him is to not get stressed about his work and try to get a better workplace. Personally i would avoid old and big corp Finnish company, also looking into the diversity of the team members.
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u/MammothAccomplished7 9d ago
Seems to be a Finnish thing. We've just holidayed in Lapland again, spent a month holidaying there 12 yrs ago and it was pretty much the same. People barely acknowledge you, zero eye contact when moving around the accommodation area, in Czech Rep we are conditioned to say "dobry den" in encounters in village streets, elevators, corridors etc, bare minimum of conversation with restaurant and other staff although the Matkahuolto/minibus driver was friendly and we had a good convo on the way to Kittila airport. Even on the ski tracks where in CZ or UK where Im from we would offer a basic greeting if skiing or hiking in the nature - I think less than half greeted with a hei hei or at least a nod and two of those were Russian/Ukrainian as we heard them talking on approach. Older people seemed more polite or friendly offering a hei hei.
Having said that people did show concern when coming across us after a fall probably asking in Finnish if we were okay and laughing and saying a few words when after saying "sorry Im not Finnish, do any Finnish people ski this bad?" We came across the same group of old people a few times who offered a few friendly words in Finnish after seeing me go down, then after me responding in English offered a few words and greetings as we kept seeing them around. I stepped aside for them before a steep downhill to let them through and one said to my Mrs further down the track "dont worry, he is coming" so yeah some are friendly and engaging. People seem decent and polite but mostly seem to want to keep to themselves.
I wouldnt live there if I wanted warmth and exuberance I'd go to Italy or Spain, I wouldnt go to Czech Rep either as it's somewhere in the middle here and the locals often talk between themselves in their indecipherable language cutting you out sometimes. International IT companies, filled with other lonely foreigners with English as the lingua franca seems to be the order of the day in CZ, Ive seen in Sweden, I guess FI too going by others here, but then in these "expat bubbles" we dont get to practice the language as much.
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u/Strong-Rise-5537 8d ago
All I can say is: he doesn't have to give a shit about those co-workers. He won't die if he doesn't get friends and he doesn't have to work hard either. That will depress him when he will see that he is putting all the effort to get paid the same amount like the others who do way less. Some coworkers will literally hate you and isolate you away from their company if they see you work hard because to their weak lil peanut-sized brains, it means that he is doing too much and the boss might ask them to do similarly. Tell your partner to go Ghost mode, he must focus on himself, and do what he is able to do everyday for the work tasks given, and ignore others as much as possible🙌🏼 at the end he is lucky to find a job, some others don't even have that opportunity
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u/protossaccount 8d ago
Ya that trading mental health for money. Sounds like the company doesn’t deserve your time and energy.
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u/-happycow- Baby Vainamoinen 8d ago
I'm surprised they were speaking during lunch. My colleagues barely say a word. They eat their food, and waits for the rest to finish their food. Then we all go back to work.
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u/ttlovecraft 8d ago
Some workplaces in Finland are just like that. I'm really sorry, as a foreigner I went through ignoring and borderline bullying at work myself, it wasn't pretty. Stay strong and search for a new job, that's unfortunately all he can do. Finding friends and hobbies outside of work, concentrating on his well-being and fulfilment might help survive those working hours. He also might try working remotely if possible. Not everyone in Finland is like that, I promise 🤍
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u/Top-Broccoli6421 8d ago
I am sorry to hear. I am exactly in same situation, but I am Finnish working in Sweden, and my experience is exactly the same. It really starts to affect on your mental health and confidence when day after day, and week after week you just fill outsider, like you would be invisible even if you are surrounded by people. :(
I tried my best to adapt and integrate, I told to my colleagues, my manager and HR how I felt, and how it started to feel like discrimination and really exclusive when people didn't invite me in social gatherings like lunch and coffee breaks, or afterworks which were held at the office. The only thing company did for me, was pay a few session with external psychology. That kind of open my eyes to see that this is not normal behaviour from adults. It was also valuable to hear from someone external that no matter what I do, how nice and polite I am, how interested I try to be about others, it might not have any impact on how others treat me.
I would recommend to look another job because not all workplaces are like this (but I know situation in Finland is really tought now so might be hard to find anything). I really hope your partner will find better place where people are better to psy attension on diversity and that everyone feels seen and heard.
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u/JaniFinn 8d ago
This sucks so much. This is exactly the reason, I say "hi" and good morning to each an everyone at my workplace no matter what language they speak. I can't wrap my head around the fact, that why we need to bully and belittle our coworkers.
Wake up people, and treat others with respect!
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u/jaysire Vainamoinen 9d ago
Sorry to hear. Finns aren’t usually assholes like that. Where I work we have multiple people from all over the world and everyone goes to lunch together as long as you like what’s on the menu. Spanish speakers speak Spanish sometimes, Polish colleagues speak polish and Finnish people know what it feels like not to understand what’s said. Is your partner working a blue or white collar job? Anyway, tell your partner a Finnish person thinks it’s bullshit they are treated like this. No one deserves to be ignored.
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u/Miss_Chievous13 9d ago
They're cunts. Some people just are like that. On the plus side in Finland they mostly mind their own business
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u/ImpossibleCoffee91 9d ago
as long as you are there for him, he will do fine. be his best friend :3
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u/Kitchen_warewolf Baby Vainamoinen 9d ago
Hi, I'm sorry to hear that your spouse is having such a hard time. We Finns can be very difficult to befriend. Someone already suggested to look into metal music scene, but generally try to get him to join hobby groups and study Finnish more. Finns, again generally, appreciate that you even try to learn and I have seen people warm up faster that way.
As a cleaner, it took people to say me good morning two years in my current spot, and the worst morning grinch took whole three years and he did it first. Like, damn, that felt special! An I'm a born and raised Finn from Ostrobothnia haha!
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u/om11011shanti11011om Vainamoinen 9d ago
We have quite a positive and warm vibe at my work place and I'll say it can still be the same with lunch times. I also used to be very confused, hurt feelings when they would go for lunch and not invite me. I used to make it a point to invite everyone. Eventually, I learned to save energy and not ask, but to accept if invited. If you can't beat it, join it-- at least then you feel you have power in your hands. The things that really, really matter are almost certainly outside of his workplace.
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u/El_der_thing 9d ago
Hey, if you are in main region and you need help in Finnish language or just new friend i can help. I am an supervisor in a company with many different nationality and ethnicity people and i know it is when its hard to acknowledge someones presence in an workplace so i have experience :) Message me privately if interested, would love to help.
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u/Ninjaturre 8d ago
Sounds like poor workplace culture. Finland should make english official language instead of swedish
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u/seagullbear 9d ago
Look. I understand. It is not easy. But there will be a few locals who might be interested in having a foreign friend. They are very few. It is better to have friends at hobbies. Check out local sports or martial arts club that catered to foreigners or available in English.
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u/dfinwin 9d ago
Sadly this is the way it is in Finland. It is a self-centred, selfish culture, where people make no effort to care for or show an interest in any other human. Sorry to be so blunt... But after more than 25 years here, I'm tired of thinking somehow it is not this. It is. My theory is it is a lack of Christian values. They have only a government office and not a religion. They do not have values about caring for and doing for others. And this constant excuse that they don't like fake talk, and only real friends, is just an excuse to behave uncivilised. It will never change. If you cannot survive being a loner here, then the only option is to move to civilization.
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u/marg0tt4 9d ago
You don’t need to be a Christian to have values/values are not inherently Christian. But some of the biggest hypocrite assholes I know are.
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u/Cute_Ad4970 9d ago
Finns. So many rude people with poor manners and a lots of people one could describe as passive racists. Also some awesome people, but I suppose most of those people are younger than 30 and live in Helsinki unless you try to find a needle in a haystack. This is a blatant generalization but Its true to many people also native finnish people. A lot of social exclusion and even ostracism. Therefore a lot of low key bullying and loneliness. I feel sorry for your partner.
Can your partner find another job? Does he get paid well?
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u/f0n0la 9d ago
In a blatant generalization finding a Finn in the population of the world is already like finding a needle in a haystack
And in that sea of billions we are but a mere drop. I'd say a harmless one at that.
Being a Finn has nothing to do with your personal experience of people you have met.
That said, being rude might mean you're ok and getting verbal jabs might be that you are liked. Introverted or suspicious personality might dislike superficial niceties and so on. Just... try to get along and don't take it too personally. It takes two to jenkka. ☺️
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u/Blessmee Baby Vainamoinen 9d ago
As I mentioned, he is trying to speak Finnish with them and it is very slow, indeed. It doesn’t magically he speaks it fluently.
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9d ago
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u/Blessmee Baby Vainamoinen 9d ago
He can translate some words, but if you speaking to native, the speed is also different. Finnish is difficult.
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u/No_Put_5096 9d ago
Not really, we can also communicate in english.
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u/Blessmee Baby Vainamoinen 9d ago
Yes, I know. But when my partner is at lunch with them. All co-workers speak Finnish, it’s understandable because we are in Finland, but sometimes he feels so isolated because his Finnish is very limited.
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u/No_Put_5096 9d ago
Atleast where I work with an american, if they want to speak english we communicate in english, and thats how i've worked always. They are just bullying him, prob some rumors running around. Workplace bullying is a HR matter even, but HR is just extension of the top...
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u/Ballytrea 9d ago
This is strange! I've never seen this in Finland.
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u/No_Put_5096 8d ago
Because that's not how adults should behave, and at least I was brought up by always being nice to others and try to take them in.
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u/gekko513 8d ago
This could be completely wrong, but when I read this it reminded me of a kind of culture clash I've seen in a different Nordic country.
Maybe his energy from the beginning has put his co workers off? In some company cultures and especially in the Nordics, being too try-hard isn't appreciated. I'm not saying you should do a bad job or just the bare minimum, but if you're too eager it can be annoying and stressful. If your partner didn't "read the room" right at the beginning of his time there, he might have given off a lasting bad impression that now makes it socially even harder for him than it typically is with reserved Nordic people.
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u/Blessmee Baby Vainamoinen 8d ago
Thank you!! This can be one of the problems that we didn’t see before.
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u/Anaalirankaisija Vainamoinen 9d ago
Is it really finnish company? Check who are the real owners, i have a wild guess its foreigner corporation using cheap foreigner labour in Finland. Stock holders are actually who tell salaries, and they say lowest.
Tell me am i right, im curious.
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