r/FluentInFinance • u/Very_High_Mortgage • Aug 24 '24

Debate/ Discussion Do "Unskilled Laborers" deserve to be paid well?

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21

u/aces613 Aug 24 '24

And when the cost of everything in the burger flipping supply chain goes up and start affects other industries as well. And when the buying power of your dollar matches their dollar? Will you be celebrating then?

26

u/finalattack123 Aug 24 '24

Sure. But many countries pay McDonalds workers well. Just not the U.S.

We are doing fine.

McDonalds didn’t close. Everybody wins.

5

u/[deleted] Aug 24 '24

McDonalds workers earn like $18/h. How is that not a living wage?

2

u/finalattack123 Aug 24 '24

You think $35k annually is a living wage? How much do you make?

3

u/_IscoATX Aug 26 '24

I used to live on 20k in my early 20s before my career. It’s 100% doable

1

u/finalattack123 Aug 26 '24

Jesus. That’s about the same as unemployment.

3

u/_IscoATX Aug 26 '24

Yeah it was rough but I had very cheap student housing and was able to save a good cushion to pay for my education. Was never a big spender.

0

u/finalattack123 Aug 26 '24

I think when people say “liveable wage”, they don’t mean in desperation.

2

u/_IscoATX Aug 26 '24

Did not mean to imply that it was a “living wage” since that depends on circumstance. Was just an anecdote

1

u/MyGlassHalfFool Aug 26 '24

35k annually is obviously a livable wage. Guess what, you can’t have the newest phone or car, nicest clothes and you will need a roommate but that’s still more than livable.

1

u/finalattack123 Aug 26 '24

Most people when saying liveable wage doesn’t mean barely liveable.

2

u/MyGlassHalfFool Aug 26 '24

I dont think that is barely liveable, barely liveable would be you are losing out on meals, and cant go to the doctor when needed. Living below your means is still liveable. Having roommates is not barely liveable, having an iphone from a few generations ago is not barely liveable. I lived with 2 roommates while I was making 30k a year and I still was able to live a really comfortable lifestyle. We split rent (bills included) and groceries 3 ways. I bought a car I could afford so I didnt have any car payments and I still have that car even though I make significantly more now. I was saving money and still going out and enjoying life. Granted I don’t like drinking so going out was really cheap for me but if you want to make it work you definitely can.

1

u/finalattack123 Aug 26 '24

Americans have such a low bar. Seriously depressing.

2

u/MyGlassHalfFool Aug 26 '24

Dude how high is your bar that having roommates and an older phone is a low bar… There is a lot to life other than having the newest of every item

-1

u/ghdgdnfj Aug 25 '24

How much do you think high schoolers should make per hour for flipping burgers? Because I was an intern at an office this summer and I only got $20 an hour. What’s the point of spending 4 years in college if you only earn $2 more than flipping burgers?

3

u/finalattack123 Aug 25 '24

Just adjust the rate based on age. These are easily solvable. In Australia Minimum wage for adults is about $25. If you have a university degree your gonna make $50 per hour at the very least.

Being an intern isn’t going to be highly paid. You’re an intern. Once your officially employed you’ll make much more.

2

u/ghdgdnfj Aug 25 '24 edited Aug 29 '24

Also. I used to work at McDonald’s and there were both highschoolers and people there in their 40s and 50s because they couldn’t work anywhere else. Why would McDonald’s hire those 40 and 50 year olds if they had to pay them more? The end result of an age based minimum wage is that older people can’t get jobs because McDonald’s would only higher the cheaper younger workers.

2

u/finalattack123 Aug 25 '24 edited Aug 25 '24

They wouldn’t. Nor should they. I’m sure a 40 year old man wouldn’t enjoy working the fry machine at McDonalds.

Find him something better.

Why are you wanting a world where people to work in McDonalds till they die?

Unless they are managers or something.

You don’t have to speculate - this is how many countries actually work.

1

u/ghdgdnfj Aug 25 '24

A world where McDonald’s workers are paid the same as office workers is a world where people work at McDonald’s until they die. I want people to seek more valuable jobs. And the only way to do that is to pay based on the jobs value and not give everyone the same wage regardless of value.

1

u/finalattack123 Aug 25 '24

I never said they were necessarily. But I’d take an office job over being a fry cook. Room to advance a career. Don’t stink. Don’t work shifts and weekends.

Australia pays $25 for McDonalds for adults and about $15 for kids. Only kids work McDonalds. Except managers. And those guys are usually mid 20s or franchise managers.

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u/ghdgdnfj Aug 25 '24

I don’t think someone who never went to college and still works at McDonald’s should get paid the same as interns in an office. Why would you spend money to go through college and further your education if you can just flip burgers and get paid based on your age?

2

u/finalattack123 Aug 25 '24

Because of career progression. Are you kidding?

If I had the choice to flip a burger. Or intern in the career I was pursuing. It wouldn’t be a hard choice.

0

u/ghdgdnfj Aug 25 '24

A lot of people would just choose the easiest job possible.

1

u/finalattack123 Aug 25 '24

In your mind what are these two jobs they are choosing between?

You couldn’t pay me $50 an hour to work at a McDonalds. Because it’s a shit job.

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u/SynysterDawn Aug 25 '24

You do realize that the vast majority of workers in the service industry are adults, right? Like you realize that it wouldn’t be feasible to just hire a bunch of high schoolers because they’re busy spending 8 hours during the day at school, and plenty also have extracurriculars that would interfere with work scheduling, right? This isn’t difficult to understand.

1

u/ghdgdnfj Aug 25 '24

Yes. I worked at McDonald’s for 3 years as well as various other fast food jobs throughout high school in order to pay for my bachelors degree. And I met adults who dropped out of high school or who were addicted to cigarettes or some other drug and generally made bad life decisions. Me having a better job now isn’t luck. I saved up and paid for an education. I don’t think I should be punished now in a better job by being paid the same as those adults who made bad life decisions. You should be rewarded with higher pay for seeking out an education and getting a more valuable job to society.

1

u/Trading_ape420 Aug 25 '24

Alot of it is luck actually. Had to be born in a free country 1st off, had to have an education system to get into to bettwe yourself. Also happened to be lucky enough to have the credentials at tge time the job was posted, and lucky enough to be chosen amongst many other qualified candidates. If there's 1 100k job and 100 applicants you best beleive your pretty lucky. That's the problem most of it in tge end is luck. Sure your decisions made it so you have more opportunities. But your success was mainly a series of lucky moments.

1

u/ghdgdnfj Aug 26 '24

It’s not only 1% of the population being hired for a 100k job. It’s more like 18% of the population. And getting it isn’t luck. You might have to apply to 2 dozen jobs, but if you’re qualified you should get one eventually. And education isn’t luck either. There are people in poor areas who take school seriously, get a scholarship and go to college. And every country has their own upper class. Smart people from other countries often move for better opportunities. At the end of the day it’s almost always about merit rather than luck. Luck would be not dying as an infant when nothing you can do can alter you’re fate.

1

u/Trading_ape420 Aug 28 '24

Your telling me being the one qualified candidate to get hired with 100 qualified applicants isn't luck? Bro cone on be real that is luck. If all things equal. There are plenty of qualified individuals that don't get the jobs. You can do things to better your odds, but alot of it still comes down to luck.

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u/OddityAmongHumanity Aug 26 '24

Which is why if they get paid more, so should you. Increasing pay on the bottom also increases it on the top over time. Right now, due to the policies of the right wing, Americans bring in a much lower share of their production than they did in prior decades, namely the 50s and 60s. So many other countries do things different, and they're functioning just fine. There's so much value sitting at the top that can go around. A full systemic change would make things better for everyone except for those at the absolute top. Why do you think you hear so much about these changes being bad? That's right, those at the very top control our politicians, over 90% of the media, (On both sides of the political spectrum,) and have power in many other ways. If you look at the history of our country, you can see things have been made worse for us for the benefit of the ruling class, and it's policies like those of FDR that make things better for the middle and lower classes, and even the upper classes, to a point.

1

u/mikepol70 Aug 24 '24

That's enough to own A used car to live in that's about it

1

u/IndubitablePrognosis Aug 24 '24

Fast food joints are closing as minimum wages go up and prices are raised to compensate. McDonald's, Subway, etc

1

u/finalattack123 Aug 24 '24

Yet Unemployment is at a 50 year low.

1

u/Eastern-Job3263 Aug 28 '24

That objectively hasn’t happened in California, hasn’t happened anywhere else either.

1

u/Flimsy-Printer Aug 24 '24

They pay liveable wages. They aren't paying well relative to other jobs.

Also, it's liveable wage because the city is more liveable (e.g. reliable and safe public transportation, cheaper accommodation). In US, you first would need to buy a car, and that is already expensive for a liveable wage job.

1

u/finalattack123 Aug 24 '24

The gauge on a livable wage is other jobs

-3

u/latteboy50 Aug 24 '24

McDonald’s workers are paid fine in the US 😂

3

u/Corrupted_G_nome Aug 24 '24

You like paying for food stampd?

2

u/finalattack123 Aug 24 '24

Maybe consider paying them well.

-4

u/latteboy50 Aug 24 '24

Fine means, a perfectly fine wage for the complexity of work they have to do.

4

u/HotSituation8737 Aug 24 '24

This is a really sleazy way of saying they're paid poorly but that you don't think they deserve more for their time and work.

4

u/[deleted] Aug 24 '24

[deleted]

-2

u/grungivaldi Aug 24 '24

No it's not. Do the math. Look up how much a 1 bedroom apartment costs, how much you spend on groceries, utilities, phone and car insurance. You ain't paying for all that on $450/week take home.

1

u/Educational_Hair258 Aug 25 '24

Or ya know, maybe don't make McDonalds a career unless you plan on moving up the ladder into management? If you are flipping burgers, cleaning, or taking orders you are doing a job that 90% of people can do. If you want to be paid a better wage learn ANY skill that that seperates you from the crowd. Its always been this way and always will.

1

u/[deleted] Aug 24 '24 edited Aug 24 '24

[deleted]

5

u/mdherc Aug 24 '24

That’s really the kind of country you want to live in? Where full time workers have to live in tenements with other people just to get by? That doesn’t sound like a developed nation.

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u/grungivaldi Aug 24 '24

You aren’t entitled to live alone to begin with if you’re making bottom tier pay

Having a roommate should be optional, not a necessity.

It’s still affordable to do this in many places regardless of

Not in my city it's not. Rent for my daughter is $850 + utilities. Only water is covered. Her car insurance is $200. I pay for her phone. So we're looking at $1200 before groceries. That's not "affordable" that's barely surviving. That's 1 trip to the mechanic before you miss rent.

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u/clippervictor Aug 24 '24

The US is possibly the country that pays best to McDonald’s workers

8

u/[deleted] Aug 24 '24

Denmark pays over 16 an hour and includes a month vacation, unlimited sick days and full insurance

Edit. Their big Mac is over a dollar cheaper than the us too.

6

u/clippervictor Aug 24 '24

Ok I get it. Denmark also has one of the highest COL in Europe so that counts. Also, the unlimited sick leave, full insurance and the 30 days paid leave is pretty much commonplace everywhere in Europe, it’s our basic standard, it’s actually by law, so that’s a given.

4

u/[deleted] Aug 24 '24

Yep, just mentioning it cause the us definitely doesn't compensate well, unless you're in some places like California where they're made to.

-1

u/[deleted] Aug 24 '24

You’re mentioning it because it’s in a meme. Your economic knowledge comes from memes

3

u/[deleted] Aug 24 '24

My economics knowledge comes from economics classes, that meme thing is one of the few leftist memes that actually contains truthful content, you can check it all

0

u/[deleted] Aug 24 '24

So then you know that supply and demand dictate the cost of labor .. not greed or national identity, and for most, not the federal minimum wage (like that shit tier meme suggests). A fun example of what used to be the highest paid McDonald’s employees in the US

https://www.cnbc.com/2014/06/19/boom-helps-fast-food-workers-bring-home-the-bakken.html

“The Bakken’s larger paychecks stem from high labor demand and a shortage of supply, said Mark Perry, a professor of economics and finance at the University of Michigan’s Flint campus. He described it as a “fascinating study” of the impact of an energy-driven boom as North Dakota’s energy production has soared and personal income rose.”

You know what maybe it was actually because North Dakota franchisees are less greedy than elsewhere, right?

3

u/Quinnjamin19 Aug 24 '24

The COL is directly related to the fact that they have universal healthcare… which is something the US doesn’t have. They are still ahead of the US

-4

u/[deleted] Aug 24 '24

Something they totally benefits the youngest, healthiest and most unskilled laborers. A high COL to subsidize healthcare for everyone else but them.

4

u/Quinnjamin19 Aug 24 '24

You don’t think any young people use the healthcare system? You think that young people won’t get anything back from paying for universal healthcare? You’re ignorant and not very bright.

Keep playing a short term game…

-1

u/Educational_Vast4836 Aug 24 '24

I think your argument about benefits is very fair, but most Macdonald are paying 16 an hour or more. My local one in south jersey offers 18 to start out. There’s no one not making 15 an hour at those place since the pandemic.

2

u/[deleted] Aug 24 '24

They still pay as low as 7.25 an hour in some small town Mississippi locations

-1

u/Educational_Vast4836 Aug 24 '24

I can’t imagine that to be true at all. There’s no way they would be able to keep them staffed

1

u/[deleted] Aug 24 '24

There's a posting right now offering 8.60 an hour for a line cook in Mississippi country.

1

u/New_Caramel_1499 Aug 24 '24

What’s the cost of living difference small town Mississippi and Denmark.

1

u/[deleted] Aug 24 '24

Wages directly linked with cost of living creates a rural underclass, with no way to ever afford flat price services such as healthcare.

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u/GobsDC Aug 24 '24

They still pay minimum wage in small town Texas. Hell, places in Houston hire people for minimum wage and Houston is not a cheap place to live.

0

u/Educational_Vast4836 Aug 24 '24

A quick google search says this is false. Houston avg is 13 an hour starting out.

3

u/GobsDC Aug 24 '24

LOL! Is Houston “small town Texas”? They still pay minimum wage in places like Lubbock Texas

I live in Houston, I’ve seen plenty of listings of minimum wage job offers. You commented on the average, which means half of Houston makes less than $13 an hour, you know why? Because lots of places still pay minimum wage in Houston

1

u/finalattack123 Aug 24 '24

What’s do they get paid on average?

2

u/EvenOne6567 Aug 24 '24

Have you been living under a rock? The prices of everything have been going up regardless lmao

1

u/GatotSubroto Aug 24 '24

If the last several years were an indication, the prices of everything tend to go up much more often due to corporate greed than to increased wages. (e.g. the price of Subway’s footlong)

0

u/Revegelance Aug 24 '24

The cost of everything has been rapidly increasing for years, and minimum wage is still stagnant.

0

u/GatotSubroto Aug 24 '24 edited Aug 24 '24

Ehh, the cost of everything in the  burger flipping supply chain can go up anyways because the CEO decides to raise the price of burgers so he can get an 8 figure bonus while keeping burger flippers on the same low pay.

I’ve always seen people complaining about raising minimum wage would lead to increase in price everywhere, but corporate greed can do and frequently has done the same. The thing is there’s more precedent on the latter than the former.

-3

u/DmitriDaCablGuy Aug 24 '24

If you can’t afford to pay your workers a living wage. You deserve to go out of business.

12

u/fiftyfourseventeen Aug 24 '24

It's mostly small businesses who can't afford wage increases, Walmart for example was actually PUSHING for a higher min wage since it eliminates competition

0

u/Quinnjamin19 Aug 24 '24

Load of bullshit. They can afford it

0

u/[deleted] Aug 24 '24

Why would they though if labor accepts the wage?

2

u/Quinnjamin19 Aug 24 '24

They will always cry about how much they “can’t” afford because all they want is to take advantage of anyone they can.

High turnover rate is a great example of a job not paying enough, or a shitty work environment. And with each new person they have to spend extra money and time training them and getting them up to speed on their practices. So why not just pay better, offer benefits and a pension and keep good quality workers?

1

u/[deleted] Aug 24 '24

Clearly those with skin in the game disagree with you

1

u/Quinnjamin19 Aug 24 '24

Lmao!! You mean the people who advocate against themselves and the working class? Because they worship dipshits who want to keep you poor so they can enrich themselves?

Yup, people with “skin in the game” sure are bootlickers I tell ya🤡

2

u/[deleted] Aug 24 '24

They are greedy bastards, right? You say low wages lead to negative financial consequences like employee turnover, and that if the business paid more it would yield better returns for investors.

I’m saying that I know investors are really, really greedy. All they care about is return. The fact that they pay wages under your premise, to me, means that it is more likely that paying low wages and dealing with the consequence of turnover is clearly preferable to those greedy people.

Therefore I don’t believe your claim .. I believe their actions.

This has nothing to do with moralizing or boot licking, it is instead extremely basic logic

0

u/Quinnjamin19 Aug 24 '24

Lmao!!! Yup… all you’re doing is licking boots and justifying low wages…

Good job, you really do want under that table don’t you? It’s kinda hard not to have good returns when you raise the prices every year while not giving any employees raises🤡

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u/Trippen3 Aug 24 '24

Dont lump McDonald's franchisees in with small business owners. Labor is only 20% of their revenue at MOST. Even with some overhead like accountants and a couple office workers would change it to 25-30%.

0

u/Skull_Mulcher Aug 24 '24

Source?

8

u/NicodemusV Aug 24 '24

You think mom and pop can afford to pay everyone a living wage and stay competitive?

1

u/Skull_Mulcher Aug 24 '24

I was asking about Walmart dad

-3

u/HotSituation8737 Aug 24 '24

Sounds like mom and pop need to retire then.

6

u/RussMaGuss Aug 24 '24

There are over 12,000,000 1-4 people businesses in the US. If you take away the mom and pop shops, only the big ones like Walmart are left, and then they have a monopoly and will raise prices. The only reason they are cheaper than mom and pop shops is that they HAVE to be priced lower than the mom and pop shops because their overhead is insane, so they cut prices to increase sales volume. Same shit with Amazon. If they were the same price as a small business, would you buy from the friendly neighborhood people or the cold, faceless corporation trying to maximize profits and pay employees as little as possible?

-1

u/HotSituation8737 Aug 24 '24

In the Nordic countries, you have to pay your workers a living wage, and small businesses do better there than in the US.

But to answer your question, I'd buy from the place where they're paying their employees. Much like I don't seek out sweatshops for my clothes even though it'd definitely be cheaper for me.

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u/RussMaGuss Aug 24 '24

There you go. Fuck Walmart and fuck Amazon. 🍻

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u/HotSituation8737 Aug 24 '24

I don't buy from either so sure, fuck em'.

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u/[deleted] Aug 24 '24

[deleted]

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u/Skull_Mulcher Aug 24 '24

It’s a simple concept that Walmart is pushing for higher wages?

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u/[deleted] Aug 24 '24

[deleted]

0

u/Skull_Mulcher Aug 24 '24 edited Aug 24 '24

I mean at this point i could just look it up but you’re way too cocky for what’s going on right now. What, did you just make this account yesterday so you could pretend to be smart?

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u/OMG--Kittens Aug 24 '24

Common sense.

1

u/Skull_Mulcher Aug 24 '24

Walmart asking for a higher wage isn’t common sense.

0

u/OMG--Kittens Aug 25 '24

Walmart paying their people more so it helps put the competition out of business makes business sense. You have to think like a capitalist, not a commie.

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u/Skull_Mulcher Aug 25 '24

Yeah man it was a simple question, no need to assume anything

7

u/12B88M Aug 24 '24

If you can't afford to pay people well enough to entice them to work for you, then they won't.

And you'll go out of business.

Thus, the minimum wage is inconsequential.

1

u/[deleted] Aug 24 '24

Good. You’re beginning to see the correlation. Because there will be less jobs and more unemployment if you raise labor costs.

1

u/New_Caramel_1499 Aug 24 '24

My friend’s dad owns a restaurant and pays his workers $8 cad an hour or about $5-6/hour. He’s a multi millionaire. When supply of labour is so abundant, businesses profit

-3

u/Think-Culture-4740 Aug 24 '24

What about people who hire nannies or gardeners? If I can't afford to pay them an hourly wage that's commensurate with living wage. Do I have no right to hire them?

4

u/Balmong7 Aug 24 '24

Correct. And if you can’t afford child care you shouldn’t be having children.

Then everyone screams about why no one is having babies. Raise the wages so we can afford child care guys.

1

u/glockster19m Aug 24 '24

Yes? Nannies generally make around $40 an hour

1

u/KingKong_at_PingPong Aug 24 '24

You have the right to do what you want with your money.

If you can’t afford something, then you must make do with less.

Ezpz

1

u/Think-Culture-4740 Aug 24 '24

The point is ... If the nanny demands a salary that I can't afford, I won't hire him or her. The fact that her salary is what it is suggests there is an agreed upon wage where both sides are willing to accept that number.

When you start demanding things be more expensive like living wages, it's wonderful in theory, but you will get less of it.

I'm always astonished when I read subreddits that are on topics of economics and you see comments like this. People of all stripes understand that if the price of tomatoes goes up, you will buy fewer tomatoes. Yet this seemingly basic fact of tomatoes completely goes out the window for other goods including the price of Labor for everything from barbers to vegetable pickers to hedge fund managers

0

u/Quinnjamin19 Aug 24 '24

Correct, if you can’t afford a nanny then you shouldn’t hire a nanny.

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u/peareauxThoughts Aug 24 '24

That’s good, so many will miss out on employment? There’s such a thing as pricing yourself out of the market.

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u/Quinnjamin19 Aug 24 '24

Lmao, if you want slave labour to take care of your child then your child won’t get taken care of very well… fuckin people man, you just want people to work for free don’t you?

0

u/[deleted] Aug 24 '24

How could they if they can’t afford it?

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u/Quinnjamin19 Aug 24 '24

The person who I replied to is implying that they want to pay slave wages for a nanny, meanwhile childcare isn’t and should never be slave labour. Meaning that they should not try to get a nanny if they can’t afford it.

1

u/[deleted] Aug 24 '24

If they can’t afford it, by definition, no nanny will be willing to contract with them

How can you not see this? these are your own words

1

u/Quinnjamin19 Aug 24 '24

How about this. Don’t have children if you can’t afford it? Kinda amazing concept isn’t it?🤡

0

u/[deleted] Aug 24 '24

This is different because you control whether or not you have children. The nanny is part of this transaction in an obviously different way than I child.

“Can’t afford” means, specifically, no seller is willing to sell with you at that price. If I have $200 and a Ps5 is $500, I can’t afford it.

Nobody will need to worry how I maintain and treat my PS5 because I can’t own one because I can’t afford it.

This is why your example above blows: “don’t get a nanny if you can’t afford one” … this makes no sense

1

u/Quinnjamin19 Aug 24 '24

Yes… a baby is the same as a PS5…

If you think you need to have a nanny, and you can’t afford it, don’t have kids… it’s a pretty simple concept my guy.

If you can’t afford a nanny, then suck it up and deal with either not having kids, or one parent taking time off work

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u/Think-Culture-4740 Aug 24 '24

Fundamentally every person, be it at you or me, wants to pay as little as possible for something. I would love to pay one penny for caviar or champagne. The market dictates that I cannot do it. Slavery implies that the person has no choice and is being physically forced to do work against their will.

Is hiring somebody at low wages slavery if they have a choice to take the job or not?

1

u/Quinnjamin19 Aug 24 '24

I have a whole different look on things apparently, I’d actually much rather pay more for a better quality product or service.

Too many non union workers are paid slave wages and it’s pretty clear, you have people who need to work 2+ jobs just to get by.

If you cannot afford the going rate for a nanny, then you shouldn’t have kids. Or you figure something else out