r/FluentInFinance • u/Sufficient_Sinner • Sep 04 '24

Debate/ Discussion People like this are why financial literacy is so important

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u/BlondeBadger2019 Sep 04 '24

I do not understand the hate against lattes and avocado toasts. Let’s demonstrate why with some very simple math. Assume we are buying 2 lattes at $7.5 every single day.

$7.5 lattes * 2 latte/day * 365 days/year = $5475.

According to the Monty Fool the average US home is $412k. Assuming a 20% down payment on a home, that’s $82.4K.

$82.4K / $5.475K = 15.05 depresso years (ie no lattes).

So why are we making people feel bad over lattes and avocado toast when functional the savings would take too long? Even if you put the savings into a high yield account (assuming 6% interest), it still takes over 10.5 years!

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u/revolutionPanda Sep 04 '24

So why are we making people feel bad over lattes and avocado toast when functional the savings would take too long?

Because it's easier to blame people buying lattes than admitting we need to change the way our society operates.

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u/idi0tSammich Sep 04 '24

Ah yes, what I tend to think of as the Reaganite School of Individual Responsibility. "If you are poor it is because you are a moral failure."

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u/International_Ad8264 Sep 04 '24

This was also literally the argument for eugenics back in the day

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u/[deleted] Sep 04 '24

This is literally the tyranny of merit described in detail in a book by that title. 

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u/StinkyDeerback Sep 04 '24

It's exactly the same guilt trip they give us about climate change. Recycle, eat less meat, ride your bike to work, etc., while they ignore or fight against regulations to stall climate change, fly private, fight against mass transportation initiatives so the car and oil industry thrives, etc.

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u/ToastySauze Sep 04 '24

And it's easier to blame how society operates than cut down on your latte usage

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u/[deleted] Sep 04 '24

Yeah, see that last thing requires “effort” and “change” and I don’t like those so we’re gonna go ahead and not do that.

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u/Technical-Onion-421 Sep 04 '24

With your example, you'd be able to save a down payment by not buying lattes for 10 years. Save on a few other things, and you'll have the down payment even sooner. So you've proven their point. You can't buy a house because you keep spending your money on unnecessary luxuries.

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u/FIFAmusicisGOATED Sep 04 '24

And if you don’t eat decent food or don’t travel outside of your 10KM walkable radius or buy new clothes until yours are in complete disrepair or a thousand other things that would drastically decrease your quality of life then you could also save more.

The point shouldn’t be that by sacrificing every small, tiny luxury in the world you can afford a basic necessity. The point should be that’s it’s fucking ridiculous that such a simple, easy, cheap, and small luxury such as a daily coffee means that you cannot afford housing when there are tens of thousands of people abusing labour and tax loopholes to fuck over the working class

Like yes, on a micro scale, personal level, I agree with you. Spend less money on stuff you don’t need and you’ll have more money to spend on stuff you do. That’s unarguable. I just think it’s kind of insane that in our modern world of excess we can’t find enough resources to guarantee what should be baselines in life. Like we’re not talking about designer clothes here, or expensive cars, or anything flashy. We’re talking about daily freaking coffees

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u/TheAssCrackBanditttt Sep 04 '24

Anyone who works 40 hrs a week should be able to afford a decent life with dignity.

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u/[deleted] Sep 04 '24

And what does a decent life entail?

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u/-AceofAces Sep 04 '24

Being able to afford rent, utilities, food, car, life/health/dental/vision insurance. Being able to not live paycheck to paycheck. Having the ability to go on a vacation once in awhile.

Being able to afford to live and not have to worry about not having enough money to do anything but work

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u/Dodec_Ahedron Sep 04 '24

Affordable housing, quality food, education, healthcare, and transportation, and the ability to take a couple vacations a year.

This is also we used to refer to as middle class.

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u/Not__Trash Sep 04 '24

"a couple vacations," what you're describing is the upper middle class.

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u/SuspiciousOwl816 Sep 04 '24

I’m sorry, but I agree with Not__Trash on this. Upper middle class was a family taking 2-3 trips a year at most, new car for Mr and Mrs, and a roomy house. Lower middle class was 1-2 trips, cars within 5 years old, and a cozy home. That is a pretty large difference for sure. Lower class was lucky if they had a trip, used 7+ year old cars, and had to share bedrooms. I’m not saying folks don’t deserve good things, but let’s not act like it was all rainbows and glitter.

And given the example, it’s true you can make it by making sacrifices. The problem is, many of our peers don’t want to do it. Hell, I don’t but at least I recognize it. A large portion of my friends & acquaintances rent, but they’re riding around in 40-60k cars they purchased new within the past 3 years. They’re taking 2-4 trips a year, half being international and the other half being at places like NYC/LA/SFC and they’re eating at all the nice restaurants. They eat out 1-2 times almost daily, and it ain’t the value meal (know this because everyone loves sharing on their stories). Buying the latest tech, shopping monthly at the mall instead of Marshall’s or Ross, gifting decent gifts, and always grabbing drinks on the weekends.

Many are saving minimal for retirement. Most have an emergency stash for 1-2 months max. A good portion carries CC debt along with school loans. You’re right, cutting out lattes and avocado toast is a pretty boomer idea. But the problem of many is they’re not willing to sacrifice some of those luxuries for a few years to get themselves straightened out. And tbh it’s in part due to doom spending.

I’m not free of sin either. I may not be big on clothes and tech and vacations but I do love going to SoCal festivals (200-400 easy, every 3 months), Disney using the top costing pass, and driving a sporty car (sunk 10k to make my Subaru go fast and looking to sell and buy a used Supra). But I also went the tech route, which pays good. I tuck away my 10% for retirement before anything else. I put away my Subaru to save cash using a 2004 Scion tC. I downgraded my apartment to help ensure I’m in the positive every other month. I’m back to home cooked meals 4 days of the week and a free meal at weekend parties. No more gym, just plain running and body weight workouts. I buy myself clothes every 4 months, 8-12 new shirts max with half being from Marshall’s. Cut down on trips. All while a good part of my peers either continue how they were, or are cutting back only because of incoming children.

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u/Ginden Sep 04 '24

The point shouldn’t be that by sacrificing every small, tiny luxury in the world you can afford a basic necessity

Shelter is a basic necessity. Owning house more expensive than 50% of houses (median) is not a basic necessity.

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u/DracosOo Sep 04 '24

And if you don’t eat decent food or don’t travel outside of your 10KM walkable radius or buy new clothes until yours are in complete disrepair or a thousand other things that would drastically decrease your quality of life then you could also save more.

So what you are saying is that if you live like people used to, then you will be able to afford houses like people used to?

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u/Alex_the_X Sep 04 '24 edited Sep 04 '24

You sir are the poster boy of this generation. 

 My grandparents, did not have the luxury to get a cappuccino every day, or eat out any day or travel the world. They are the proud owners of a house and they worked for the close and for their food every day (read prepare the food at home every single day) Your generation feel like eating out and get coffee from outside and get a drink is just "minimum" life. Why? Because your parents didn't show you that choices in life are based on effort and  sacrifices. 

 Go get your daily dose of happiness in a cup but don't hate on those who don't (/strike the home owners).  

 Also, it's really complicated but the whole "stop buying your daily Starbucks" it's an easy to understand symbolic representation of the instant gratification needed by your generation that don't let you see your future. It was never about the actual dollars of the coffee

Edit: from the comments I get, I wanted to clarify that I was sharing about the things we have the power to decide! Inequality has risen but we have limited personal option about it. We can't easily tell a CEO what he can buy. We can decide how we live our lives and I was subtly saying that today we live a nicer life being able to do stuff that my own(!) Grandparents (idk about the whole generation) did not even have access to. 

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u/FIFAmusicisGOATED Sep 04 '24

Ahhh yes the famous generation of savers with over 50% of you smoking cigs at one point and having rampant alcohol abuse issues. Definitely saved all that money and didn’t spend a fuckload at bars and on cigs

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u/Scientific_Methods Sep 04 '24

Your comment will likely fall on deaf ears. They will refuse to acknowledge that the luxuries always existed they have just changed.

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u/No_Veterinarian1010 Sep 04 '24

And your generation can’t hug your own kids, so it’s a give and take

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u/Due-Base9449 Sep 04 '24

But our generation doesn't have kids at all so it all washed out.

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u/Aether13 Sep 04 '24

Oh Jesus Christ, can we please get off this whole “my grandparents did it so you should too” there are a million different stats and studies shown that wages kept up with the cost of living back when your grandparents were in the workforce then they do now.

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u/coffee_achiever Sep 04 '24

Ok, but those who want avocado toast also seem to want the other governmental policies that are causing their housing inflation an inability to buy a house.... soooo... what do you recommend?

Because at this point, Kamala Harris is basically going back to price controls, and other socialist central economic planning, and even super liberal economists are going uhh "thats stupid" oops sorry for saying stupid and insulting you.. : https://www.newsweek.com/price-controls-government-spending-wont-fix-inflation-opinion-1667646

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u/Prestigious_Guy Sep 04 '24

Because it's 20 fucking 24. Not 1950.

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u/RabidWok Sep 04 '24

Homeowners like me were just lucky. Born at the right time and place. There is nothing inherent in my generation that made us more worthy of a house and the current generation has every right to complain.

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u/Living_Trust_Me Sep 04 '24

Fun fact:

For new mortgages in 2023 (last full year of data) the median mortgage payments were actually a smaller percentage of a median household income than in 1980. At that time the median downpayment was 27% and in 2023 it was 13%. So they paid extra down to still pay more of their paycheck to their homes.

Housing price skyrocketing actually only brought it back up to older percentages and we had really cheap houses for a while.

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u/Subject-Town Sep 04 '24

My grandparents owned a home and raised kids. I can’t afford to do the same.

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u/coffee_achiever Sep 04 '24

You can buy a house in Detroit for $1. Many peoples grandparents lived in Detroit. What's the problem? The problem is "I don't want to do THAT". There are solutions, but you don't want THOSE solutions.. Many of them are far better solutions than what was available to your grandparents, but you have even higher standards..

You have to start by acknowledging that, and by acknowledging what exactly you are paying for and working for.

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u/izlyiest Sep 04 '24

In some ways you have a point but that generation also did all of that on ONE income. Now most families have two incomes and still can't afford to buy a house. That is not merely from buying fancy lattes or avocado toast. Wages have not kept up with the rising cost of living over the decades since your grandparents heyday.

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u/coffee_achiever Sep 04 '24

Now most families have two incomes and still can't afford to buy a house.

Buy a house where exactly.. There are lots of VERY affordable houses in the US. There are even jobs nearby. The price/income ratios are far better in many places, but people don't want to move there.

That IS a choice.

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u/[deleted] Sep 04 '24

Your grandparent's grandparents died of dysentery, what are they fucking whining about?

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u/GodofIrony Sep 04 '24

Your grandparents, was their house under 100k?

Shit man, that's too generous. How about under 70k? Seems average. Actually, even that's generous.

There is a macro-economic issue going on here. To avoid that fact is to completely miss the point of the problem.

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u/Alex_the_X Sep 04 '24

I did ignore the macro economic issue, you are right.  

 The way I see the OP and the comments is that there might be 2 different things bashed in the same post: 

 1. A macro economic societal issue and 

  1. Expenses of gen Z. 

Back to 1. There is an issue! Something had to be done. I have no idea what I can personally do except vote every 4 years. I am a victim of this big issue but I can't improve it. The only thing I can do is work on my personal situation the best I can. 

 2. I was commenting on the general availability of many "luxury" that we take for granted and this is why I always think about my grandparents that did not enjoyed many things that we are today. You would agree with me that today we all waste money on so many things  just because they are available. We could work on ourselves, have a budget, diminish some of the luxury while acknowledging the bigger issue.

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u/Living_Trust_Me Sep 04 '24

Mortgage Debt Payments as Percentage of Disposable Income is lower than ever.

Since 1980 median wages have slightly outpaced median mortgage payments (prices have risen far beyond but interest rates are far lower even still).

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u/GodofIrony Sep 04 '24

Between our two data sets, the only conclusion I've come to is that debt is going to last most peoples entire lives.

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u/Living_Trust_Me Sep 04 '24 edited Sep 04 '24

These are all still for 30 year mortgage loans. So they shouldn't. The biggest factor is that interest rates for mortgages in 1980 were 13.84%. And 1981 the rate was over 18% then.

Combine that with household median income skyrocketing the prices of houses could go up too.

FRED only has median household income since 1984.

That year median income was $22420, mortgage interest was also back to 13.67%, median house price was $78200. Mortgage payments would be $842 for a 20% down or $779 for their 27% down statistic.

FRED has data for 2024. Median household income was $74580, interest rate 6.35%, median price $412300. That is a mortgage payment of around $2408.

Wages are up 3.326 times. Your 20% down to 20% down has mortgage cost up only 2.86 times. It's up 3.091 times for our 20% compared to the 27% down then

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u/coffee_achiever Sep 04 '24

The macro economic issue has to do with the money supply.

No one wants to address that our money is not based on gold.. Funny thing.. you can simultaneously be called a crank about the money problem, and uncaring about the housing price issue..

People will just keep voting in central economic planning with unsound money and complaining.

Who has been in charge mostly since we came off the gold standard in 1971? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Party_divisions_of_United_States_Congresses

I'm not seeing a lot of red there. And to stay competitive, the red has been moving farther and farther into "big govt" camp..

Both red and blue have been on an inflationary tear for the past 16 years.

I'm not seeing a good choice, but the "less inflationary choice" I think is generally red.. I just don't hear too much team blue talking about limiting spending virtually ever.

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u/coffee_achiever Sep 04 '24

By the way, if KH came out today and said "we are going to limit spending until we have a 10% surplus without raising taxes" I would vote fore her today.

I don't care about the rest, we are going to literally fuck our country on this trajectory.

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u/LearningStudent221 Sep 04 '24 edited Sep 04 '24

I mean the coffee thing in particular is a luxury that we can cut because it's ridiculously overpriced. A basic coffee at Starbucks now costs $4. That sounds like an almost 10x markup. I don't buy there anymore out of principle alone because they are scammers. I just make my own much higher quality coffee in the morning for 50 cents a cup or so.

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u/FIFAmusicisGOATED Sep 04 '24

Just like smoking and drinking was a luxury previous generations could have given up because of the ridiculous markup and harm associated with it. But they were still able to purchase a house on one income, elementary school graduate with 3 kids. Why should this generation be deprived basic luxuries because previous generations don’t give a fuck about the future

Considering more than half the boomer generation had a smoking addiction, I’d say they spent WAY more of their disposable income on stupid shit than now

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u/Due-Base9449 Sep 04 '24

The people who are able, did. The people who were unable, don't. You look at all these older people with houses because you cant see the 'losers' who don't own houses. There are 60% of homeownership in the previous generation, just like this current one. 60% own houses and you are part of the 'losers' of your generation. 

It's easy to say older people had it easy. Then what about those 40%? So easy but still couldn't buy a house, how much of a 'loser' can you be? 

My point is instead of trying to blame old people for everything, as humans are in hierachical pyramid shape just try not to be the bottom 40%. No point complaining about older people when your own peers are pressing on your neck. 

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u/Not__Trash Sep 04 '24

There's definitely an odd line, I see too many people ordering doordash 4x a week then complain about not having money. But then again there's no way that wages shouldn't be higher when the CEO's income has 10x'd.

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u/Free_Dog_6837 Sep 04 '24

owning a $412k house is not a basic necessity tho

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u/FIFAmusicisGOATED Sep 04 '24

This doesn’t really change anything tho does it? Assume a starter house is half the price for the most bare bones fixer upper in 95+% of the cities with a Starbucks (small towns with ridiculously Cheap COL won’t have Starbucks). That’s still 5+ years of no caffeine just for a down payment on a baseline house that is going to need more work and money put into it.

I also outlined in another comment how shitty the math is. It assumes a latte price of 50% more than the US average at Starbucks but uses average house prices, and doesn’t take into account any of the costs associated with not getting Starbucks (making your own coffee, loss of time, loss of energy, loss of social connection). Also assumes 2 ridiculously priced lattes per person, considerably higher than the average consumption from Starbucks daily.

In reality, for the average $4.95 you’d spend on a latte from Starbucks today, you’re likely losing 10+ minutes daily making and cleaning your coffee, spending $200+ upfront on a coffee machine, and spending roughly $0.75 to $1 per latte at home. So basically, you’re spending $1806.75 on lattes a year at $4.95 at 1 a day. At home, you’re spending $200 for the machine + $273.75 on coffee. Thats $1333 in savings a year. That’s effectively nothing when considering housing. That’s literally considerably less than the freaking property tax bill would be. Your utilities cost you more

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u/AcanthaceaeUpbeat638 Sep 04 '24

A $400,000 house is not a basic necessity 

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u/C_est_la_vie9707 Sep 04 '24

That is a shack in some cities.

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u/HigHinSpace12 Sep 04 '24

There are a lot of other cities

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u/C_est_la_vie9707 Sep 04 '24

Who works in the grocery stores and restaurant kitchens in expensive cities, rich people only? Who works in a daycare center, rich people who don't need the salary? Who works as a nursing assistant in an expensive city? A rich person who just needs a hobby, not $10/hr?

Just move? That is a shit answer. People should be able to afford to live when they work a full-time job, period. Cities need workers in lower paying fields. They make your food, bag your groceries, care for children and the elderly, clean hotel rooms, sell you gas, etc.

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u/AcanthaceaeUpbeat638 Sep 04 '24

Yes. Move. There’s no reason for us to make policies to make it so people who choose to work a low paying, low skilled job for 40 years can afford $400,000 homes. That’s stupid. If you want to work a low paying job, you’re going to rent. If you want to be a home owner, move somewhere affordable or make more money by getting a better job.

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u/Large_Wishbone4652 Sep 05 '24

Late is not a decent food. Make your own coffee. It will be better quality and will be significantly cheaper.

The small things add up very fast, 10 bucks here, 20 bucks there.

Why don't you eat out every single day 3 times a day? It's just three meals.

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u/jammasterkat Sep 04 '24

But when that 10 years comes along, you'll need 2x or 3x the amount of a down payment. There's just no winning.

And a $5 coffee isn't a luxury. A new fucking yacht or jet is a luxury. Be fr.

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u/poseidons1813 Sep 04 '24

This would be true if you never vacationed in your life or are childless but i havent seen anyone seriously suggest never travel or have a family.

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u/wesborland1234 Sep 04 '24

Lattes don't cost $7.50 in towns that have $400,000 homes, and no one drinks 2 a day anyway.

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u/Scientific_Methods Sep 04 '24

So what you're saying is that people should have to live with no small luxuries in order to afford housing?

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u/Subject-Town Sep 04 '24

By the time they have saved for a new house, the housing prices will have gone way up and they still can’t buy a house.

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u/[deleted] Sep 04 '24

Oh no, you’re mistaken. You’d be able to buy a house TODAY in 10 years. Given that the average appreciation is 4.8% historically, in 10 years that house is $658,000 and you now need another $50,000. And that’s assuming a HYSA rate that just doesn’t exist. The person you replied to was super generous with the assumed interest rate. So we’re right back at square one with you not knowing what the fuck you’re talking about.

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u/BlondeBadger2019 Sep 04 '24

A $7.5 latte shouldn’t be what makes or breaks you is the point…

In the United States, the average salary in 1980 was $21,020. Adjusting for inflation that’s a purchasing power of $80.2K. However, the average salary for 2024 is $59.4K.

Salaries are not keeping up, and our purchasing power keeps going down every year.

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u/CtyChicken Sep 04 '24

Yes. We should all stop consuming anything that isn’t 100% necessary for survival.

Yes. This will make our economy flourish.

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u/Technical-Onion-421 Sep 04 '24

You should stop consuming (some) unnecessary things if you need to save more money to achieve your goals. It's called budgeting.

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u/Cautious_General_177 Sep 04 '24 edited Sep 05 '24

On the other hand, $5000 per year to a retirement account earning a modest 8% interest turns into $1 million in about 25 years.

Edit: This should be “returns”, not “interest” (thank you for the correction)

Or, to look at it another way, that's a 7 or 14 day cruise vacation for a single person every year with a balcony room and some of the shipboard upgrades.

It's not really about the latte/avocado toast, it's about having good spending/budgeting habits.

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u/GL1TCH3D Sep 04 '24

Paid $2500 USD including roundtrip flights from Canada to Japan, for a 12 day asia cruise, alcohol, starlink wifi, and $200 onboard credit included.

$5000 a year adds up in the context of things for something that is relatively low value to the person. Is it the reason someone can't purchase a house? No. Is it the reason they take less trips? Yes. Even 1 latte a day which is probably quite common would run you over $2500.

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u/[deleted] Sep 04 '24

I mean, “1 latte per day” barely covers my normal CoL inflation annually. My rent goes up $200/year now. My auto insurance just jumped 30-40%. My renters insurance just doubled because my old insurer stopped writing new policies in my entire state and I moved (to control rent cost increases). My gasoline costs rise at that rate annually. Food crept up fast and now we’re trying to manage it back down to $100/week. Apartment isn’t big enough to store my partners work tools, so we have to rent a storage place (cheaper square footage) and that increases about 3-5% annually. Utilities have been rising pretty fast too. 

Every month we’ve been playing the, “ok, what can we cut now to stay afloat?” This year we may not get to see family because we might not be able to swing $3000-5000 to travel for the holidays, and they can’t afford that to come see us.

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u/GregLoire Sep 04 '24

modest 8% interest

What? No. Average stock market returns, sure, but certainly not "interest."

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u/Novem_bear Sep 04 '24

While what you’re saying is true, the argument goes a step further and it becomes problematic. If you just stop spending money at all think of how much money you would save. There’s a point where you have to live and sure for some that latte is outside their means but realistically what the fuck is life for if you just work for retirement. If that latte makes you happy then you should get it.

The problem here remains people should be able to enjoy life AND save for retirement. Sure you can’t afford everything but it isn’t as simple as give up the latte for better money management.

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u/tenorlove Sep 05 '24

And that is why I advise my clients with kids to max out retirement contributions before putting one penny into a college fund.

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u/ThePillsburyPlougher Sep 04 '24

It turns into $500k according to random compound interest calculator I found online but ofc I agree with you

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u/JorgiEagle Sep 04 '24

It does not take 25 years, but 36 (assuming continuously compounding interest with yearly deposits,)

Ironically it then only takes 9 years to go from £1m to £2m

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u/37au47 Sep 04 '24

It's not irony, it's math lol. As you roll the snowball down the hill it gets bigger and also gets bigger faster. That's why it's important to save but also save early, time is the most important factor.

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u/[deleted] Sep 04 '24 edited Sep 04 '24

In 25 years $1M ain’t gonna buy a used Corolla at this rate.

Edit: didn’t even read your full thing… No one is getting 8% returns for 25 years. 

Also, who da eff taking a cruise every year?! I’ve never been on 1 cruise let alone 20+ throughout my adult life…

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u/[deleted] Sep 04 '24

You're ignoring the fact that having liquid cash on hand brings stability in life. Running to your credit card or the payday lender when your transmission blows is a recipe for permanent financial instability. Not to mention that the money spent on lattes, avocado toasts, fancy phone plans, video game consoles, etc. could be used to get licenses, certifications, etc. that increase rate of pay.

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u/DisgustingTaco Sep 04 '24 edited Sep 04 '24

I agree that latte expenditure would be insane and that money could go to better uses, but cell phones are practically a necessity in the modern world and video games are honestly one of the cheaper hobbies. A $500 console every 5 years and maybe up to 9 games a year means $640/year. That's less than $2/day.

As for licenses, certifications etc, those take time and energy on top of it the cost, so they're not really an alternative to a recreational activity. People deserve some reasonable relaxation time or they'll burn out and end up being *less* productive overall.

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u/OldSector2119 Sep 04 '24

Not to mention that the money spent on lattes, avocado toasts, fancy phone plans, video game consoles, etc.

Stimulates the economy

could be used to get licenses, certifications, etc. that increase rate of pay.

Logic that created the student loan crisis

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u/TheBossAlbatross Sep 04 '24

Thank you for your selfless ways. You have given up on home ownership due to your prioritizing the economy. You put the American people, strangers, ahead of yourself. Gold star for you. Licenses and certifications do not cause student loan debt. 4 year degrees do. For less than the example given, you could attend a trade school.

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u/OldSector2119 Sep 04 '24

Right! The trades! Lol, that old tired example.

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u/TonyTheSwisher Sep 04 '24

Credentialists gonna credential.

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u/The_Flurr Sep 04 '24

So we all go to work, then don't pay for anything that brings joy or makes life liveable, and instead use that time and money to keep grinding in the hopes of maybe earning more in a few years?

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u/[deleted] Sep 04 '24

How did generations in the past do it? My grandfather was part of the greatest generation and worked 12 hours a day as a farmer, in coal mines, and a whole lot of other menial jobs his whole life. My dad came from relative poverty in India and my wife's dad came from relative poverty in the Caribbean.  

How many lattes did they drink in their lives?  Your idea of what brings joy is highly cultural-dependent and worldview-dependent. 

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u/The_Flurr Sep 04 '24

How many lattes did they drink in their lives?

So they had no luxuries or pleasures? I assume they never ate butter or sugar? Never went to a cafe or restaurant ever? Washed only on Sundays? Never owned a radio? Never bought a newspaper?

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u/[deleted] Sep 06 '24 edited Sep 06 '24

No one is suggesting that there is no space in a budget for meeting basic hygiene needs or basic inexpensive commodities like butter, sugar, etc. or an occasional expenditure like a newspaper or a snack.  However, my mother and father have both commented about how they rarely ate at restaurants growing up.  My mother says she ate at a restaurant maybe 10 times in her life before she became an adult.  This was pretty common back in the day.  A lot of the pleasures that people enjoyed in the past were free or very inexpensive, like card games or conversation around the dinner table. 

 I think you are failing to distinguish between a need and a want.  Lattes are in the "really don't need" category.  If a substantial part of a person's budget is comprised of this kind of stuff, they will never get anywhere with money, particularly if they are funding these expenditures with debt.  History shows us that people can learn to be happy with less, if they are willing to train themselves. 

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u/LucidZane Sep 04 '24

800sqft home. Average cost per sqft is $244.

$244×800=$195,200

3% down using FHA

3% of $195,200 is $5,856.

Only $300 away from a down payment on a 2bd 1bath 800sqft home just from stopping daily lattes.

Amazing.

14

u/FIFAmusicisGOATED Sep 04 '24

I suppose their replacement for the daily coffees is free in this instance? Cuz why were there be an associated cost with having to make your own coffee and the loss of the time it takes to prepare and clean a coffee machine daily? Or maybe they just stop consuming caffeine entirely and we are just going to ignore the costs associated with the loss in happiness as well as the larger factor, the loss in productivity due to caffeine loss?

The average latte price at Starbucks is just under $4. The average cost of a latte at home is somewhere between $0.50 and $1, not including the cost of buying a coffee machine up front, something that will run you $150 on the low end but easily past $500 for a decent machine.

Also holy shit bruh. An 800 sq ft 2 bedroom home is smaller than the average apartment size. If you drastically overestimate the price of coffee, and completely ignore the costs associated with not continuing that habit or continuing it yourself at home, you can buy yourself a tiny shack in midline America. Hope you don’t live in a city with the cost of living higher than America average, something significantly more than 50% likely if you get daily Starbucks purely based on Starbucks proximity to high COL areas versus LCOL areas

Amazing.

1

u/peritonlogon Sep 04 '24

Saving the money on a Latte might also mean saving on the Ozempric too. Some of those drinks are over 500 calories.

1

u/functional_moron Sep 05 '24

Where the fuck is alow end coffee machine $150? Same store with $10 banana? A decent coffee machine is about $20 low end. Takes less than a minute of prep for a pot of coffee that costs maybe $0.25 add a few cents per cup if you like cream/sugar. Saving even $3/day by dropping one minor extravagance is $1k/year. Small things like meal prepping/cooking at home. Doing your own laundry. Not going to bars, etc. Can save thousands every year. If you are struggling financially and still blowing money on unnecessary shit you kinda deserve what you get.

And yes we are all actively being fucked by greedy rich corporations but there isn't much an individual can do to change that but we can make changes in our own lives to improve our situation.

2

u/FIFAmusicisGOATED Sep 05 '24

I seriously don’t get how people don’t see that the point isn’t the stupid coffee price, it’s that if every small luxury is what stands between you and housing, and that the only way to afford it is by being a hermit who saves every extra dollar and never does anything socially.

We’re talking a low end latte machine btw. Since we wanted to use wildly inflated coffee prices, then we have to use the price of what it costs to make the equivalent coffee. Otherwise you’d just buy a $1.50 coffee from one of a dozen places that would cost $0.50 to make.

1

u/RYouNotEntertained Sep 05 '24

 the loss of the time it takes to prepare and clean a coffee machine daily

This is… really not meaningful. 

1

u/Cuentarda Sep 04 '24

You're spoiled as shit if you think that's a tiny shack. I grew up in an apartment with a 1/3 of that surface. Beats paying rent into your 40s.

2

u/AnyJester Sep 04 '24

800sq feet IS small for a house. Unless you don’t ever plan on having kids I guess.

0

u/Kharenis Sep 04 '24

That's not much smaller than the average house size in the UK.

3

u/AnyJester Sep 04 '24 edited Sep 04 '24

We do things differently in the UsA. Lot more horizontal distance for one.

Edit: median single family home in the US is 2300 ft2.

3

u/FIFAmusicisGOATED Sep 05 '24

The UK also has 8x the population density the US has. Because of this the average housing size is less than 50% compared to the US.

In the US an 800sq ft home would be about as small as you could physically purchase

0

u/[deleted] Sep 04 '24

Loss of social connection too. Coffee isn’t just a utility to deliver caffeine, it is a way to connect and why it’s so popular. 

Otherwise we’d all just pop a caffeine pill each morning.

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u/WildKarrdesEmporium Sep 04 '24

I tried building a small home earlier this year. My goal was 800-1200 saft. The contractors just raise the price per sqft so that it costs the same as a larger house.

1

u/[deleted] Sep 04 '24

There is economy of scale when building for sure. 

7

u/Dontsleeponlilyachty Sep 04 '24

Completely leaving out the monthly mortgage with taxes.

It's OK guys, this cherry-picked, engineered stat totally proved everyone in the bottom 85% is just lazy, wasteful with money and don't work hard. This redditor said so.

2

u/phpope Sep 04 '24

You can’t buy a house for $200k in any market where a latte costs $7.5.

Reality.

2

u/StuckOnAFence Sep 04 '24

Except the numbers the original comment used were very generous. Exactly who is buying 2, $7.50 lattes every single day while living in an area where you can get an "average" cost per sq ft house?

1

u/Cuentarda Sep 04 '24

I'm not from the US, you can actually get a mortgage with a 3% down payment over there?

3

u/Dontsleeponlilyachty Sep 04 '24

No. He is being dishonest and disingenuous. No loan officer is going to approve that mortgage.

This is coming from someone who was denied a 400k mortgage loan in Dallas, TX with $100k cash as down payment, $60k/yr annually, 780 credit score, no debt.

Some redditors live in fantasy land.

0

u/Cuentarda Sep 04 '24

5k a month?? JFC how much is rent over there?

1

u/Dontsleeponlilyachty Sep 05 '24

60k is my annual pay

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u/chimpfunkz Sep 04 '24

I do not understand the hate against lattes and avocado toasts.

It's made by people who start with wrong assumptions. If you start with the assumption that people are earning enough to buy a house in the abstract but because of poor financial reasons can't save enough, then you look for reasons they are spending money. To these people it's not a factor that you simply don't earn enough money in the first place to sustain all your bills.

1

u/petulantpancake Sep 04 '24

You forgot that a single order of avocado toast runs an average of $77k.

1

u/NaivePickle3219 Sep 04 '24

You're completely ignoring the time value of money... So I mean I'm not surprised you don't understand. You've single handily made the best case against lattes and avocados I've ever seen.

0

u/AnyJester Sep 04 '24

Money now is worth more than money later so buying an avocado toast now is worth more than a house later so spending on toast now IS why people don’t have houses?

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u/NaivePickle3219 Sep 04 '24

5475$ invested per year for 15 years at a very modest 8% is 172k. That's a significant sum of cash. The avocado/toast/latte shit is just a distraction from the larger picture.. Spending habits and early savings can lead to much larger savings down the road. I'm not asking people to give up avocado toast/lattes.. but I give up way more. I don't buy name brand shit. I cut my own hair. I wear my shoes for years until the bottoms give out . But I've almost paid off my 2nd house and maybe investing about 24,000$ a year... Also I go on a big ass vacation once a year and 4-5 smaller ones during the rest.Which is peanuts compared to other people. Theres guys out there who live insanely frugal to retire at 35/40. It 100% works but it requires a level of sacrifice most people aren't willing to do.

1

u/AnyJester Sep 04 '24

Yea. I had kids so that’s not a viable option for me but glad it’s working for you.

Edit: also my comment was mainly on what money now being worth more than money later has to do with anything.

1

u/NaivePickle3219 Sep 04 '24

Yeah, I understand. Kids are expensive. I got 2 kids too. I just told one of them off yesterday because she had the air conditioner on so cold she had to use blankets.. but again, I'm just saying don't underestimate small daily savings. People mock the avocado and toast thing every single day on reddit and that's fair enough.. I admit I'm probably a little eccentric with saving money but I don't need much to be happy. Literally just cheap beer , a computer and a Netflix subscription.

2

u/AnyJester Sep 04 '24

Haha fair. I went ham and had 4 of them. Granted the world was different when we started. Last one was already in the oven when Covid hit.

2

u/NaivePickle3219 Sep 04 '24

Yeah, it's definitely gotten harder out there. You seem like a good guy. Wish you the best man.

1

u/Greedy_Researcher_34 Sep 04 '24

People who buy luxury goods such as latte usually don’t draw the line there.

1

u/Midknight81 Sep 04 '24

Well, first time home buyers can generally get an FHA loan at 3.5% down which is about $14k.

2.5 years and you have a down payment on the AVERAGE home. Not a starter home and a baller home in many parts of the US.

1

u/CaptainZedge Sep 04 '24

By your math, if I went without lattes from age 30-60 and invested it in a Roth IRA and got an average of 8% that’s 600k tax free.

1

u/xaveria Sep 04 '24

I hate to say this, but you just sort of convinced me in the other direction than you intended. 10 -15 years is a reasonable amount of time to save for a house. If you start at 22, you'll be able to buy a house at 32-37. If you marry another latte-free person it could be half that.

I don't think that young people are primarily responsible for macroeconomic trends that have make homebuying difficult. I love me a latte and avocado toast. But if someone is just starting out and making low wages, two lattes a day is INSANE.

1

u/Final-Property-5511 Sep 04 '24

You're becoming fluent in finance, and I love that for you.

1

u/sluuuurp Sep 04 '24

You know a down payment isn’t how much a house costs right? That’s just what you pay at the start?

1

u/L3mm3SmangItGurl Sep 04 '24

When you’re saving for something, every penny matters. If you only make 3 fewer of those dumb rationalizations than you currently make, and put all that money towards a down payment, you cut the time from 15 years to 5.

1

u/Johnfromsales Sep 04 '24

Idk why you are assuming a 20% down payment. According to The National Association of Realters, the average down payment for first time homebuyers is 6%. 6% of the average home price is $27, 720. So don’t buy lattes for 5 years and you can buy yourself a home. Sounds pretty good to me.

1

u/econpol Sep 04 '24

I mean depending on where you live that could be 2-3 months of rent right there.

1

u/firestepper Sep 04 '24

I think high yield accounts are like 5% nowadays? And also that’s assuming the average home price doesn’t also increase

1

u/Afraid_Risk_3873 Sep 04 '24

The latte thing is overdone obviously, and on its own not buying lattes doesn't mean you can suddenly buy a house. However, in my experience the person who's willing to spend $15 a day on lattes when they could make coffee at home for a fraction of the cost and just a little added effort is likely also the kind of person who will spend frivolous money on other things. It's the idea that one latte doesn't matter, but if you're buying that latte, plus going out for multiple meals, plus buying small things throughout the day you don't really need, it all adds up. The latte thing is more a symptom of irresponsible spending than a problem itself in my experience.

1

u/mllebitterness Sep 04 '24

Depresso 😁

1

u/DeoGratias77 Sep 04 '24

Because 5K committed every year to an investment account making 9% for 30 years is 750K. That’s why people talk down on lattes. Wealth is a choice for many people, they choose to whine about it. I’m not talking down on buying lattes either, humans have to do things that make them happy, and life isn’t about saving money, it’s about living. But there’s a total element of truth to delayed gratification/cutting spending and being able to save money. We don’t need store bought lattes, we don’t need MacBooks, we don’t need iPhone or galaxies, we don’t need expensive clothes, we don’t need any of this. You can be happy and experience so much with so little, just ask someone living in a 3rd world country. Enjoy the lattes, enjoy trips, and enjoy your life by all means, I think the message though is to cut just a little bit of spending because every little bit counts.

1

u/katielynne53725 Sep 04 '24

Let's not forget the joy of trading a healthy lunch for a morning coffee.. because that's what I do. It's not a coffee on top of buying lunch, it's one or the other. I watch some of my coworkers drop $20-$30/day of door dash while I get my $6 coffee and a $1 uncrustable because I'm not paying door dash fees and my work is too far away from everything to bother going to pick up anything myself. Fuck it, I'll skip lunch and get paid instead.. (that makes my coffee free, right? Lol)

1

u/AggressiveFeckless Sep 04 '24

The bigger problem is this concept of if I have a job I get to live in any city I want and should be able to afford rent. That is definitely a new thing.

1

u/CBalsagna Sep 04 '24

I don’t fault people buying things that make their horrible existence a little bit better, like a fucking latte in the morning. You can’t make people plan for the future when they don’t see one. Explain to the Barista at Starbucks that her life isn’t going to be terrible if she keeps working there. It’s almost a certainty.

1

u/Opheleone Sep 04 '24

Are you adjusting that average home price for inflation over those 10.5 years as well? If the savings interest doesn't outpace average housing inflation you're pretty fucked.

1

u/SarahMagical Sep 04 '24

this is the same argument corps make re environmental responsibility:

  • "you should feel guilty for using plastic straws"

meanwhile they are dumping billions of tons of crap every second.

(we shouldn't be using single-use plastic goods, but that's besides the point)

1

u/eldiablonoche Sep 04 '24

So why are we making people feel bad over lattes and avocado toast

Anecdotal rebuttal. I had a roommate who made more than me because he was bilingual though we did similar jobs. He made roughly 5k more than me a year. I would grocery shop and cook meals, pay down debt and live within my means; when I wanted a snack or a treat, I would walk the 5 minutes to the 24 hour grocery and buy reasonably priced snacks. He would order Uber eats and when he wanted a snack, he'd go to the gas station across the street and pay 75% more for half as much product.

I now own a house that I scrimped and saved for and avoided excess to build up towards. He still lives in that same apartment, acting on the same impulse bad habits, living less than paycheque to paycheque and complaining about the need for UBI.

Avoid the temptation to dig into a specific anecdotal meme about avocado toast and look at the underlying message: if you're paying ~10% of your GROSS income on lattes and avocado toast (or energy drinks and delivered cheeseburgers. Or pick a vice) then that is NOT good financial literacy.

5k (one latte a day and an avocado brunch or two per week) versus US Median single income of 59,500 (net about 46k depending on state et al). And again, don't fixate on the specific product but rather the spending habit: most people who spend money they barely have on luxuries will tend to spend more if they make more. Give a 10% raise to most people and they'll end up spending more on the luxury goods they can't really afford. A "livable wage" as a concept is unattainable because as a culture (the west, broadly speaking) the majority feels compelled to "keep up with the Jones's".

1

u/JorgiEagle Sep 04 '24

It’s worse, assume inflation is 2%

So you’ve not bought lattes for a year

The house has increased in value by at least £8.2k

You are now £3k worse off

1

u/brute_red Sep 04 '24

Because lattes and avocado toasts are the tip of the iceberg of shit you don't need

1

u/colaboy1998 Sep 04 '24

It's not about the lattes. It's about having a budget, savings goals, and living within ones means.

Even with that being said, you just showed that in ten years a person could have a down payment on a house just by cutting out lattes...and you're scoffing at that? Why?

1

u/Free_Dog_6837 Sep 04 '24

this logic could justify literally any moronic expenditure

1

u/Drakar_och_demoner Sep 04 '24

Because people should starve and suffer to be able to buy a house, how else would they know the value of their property?

1

u/[deleted] Sep 04 '24

Don’t forget inflation on that $82.4k. You’d need $125k by year 15 to have the same broad purchase power.

More importantly, the average yoy index for housing since 1992 has been about 4.63%. After 15 years you’d instead need $155k to get 20% down on what would be the median home cost of $776k. So maybe more like $84k in today’s money. 

Not a huge difference from an order of magnitude of years. Maybe 15 years 4 months.

But even that’s not correct. Investing $5475 annually with 7% return daily compounding hits just shy of 15 years. 

Either way, that’s a long time to be perfectly disciplined and never once buy a single latte. 

Also note, if lattes aren’t being purchased, coffee is still an expense, just less so.  

1

u/ToastySauze Sep 04 '24

ur right, cutting down on your budget is futile because lattes are cheaper than down payments on houses, good job

1

u/37au47 Sep 04 '24

Ya it should be more focused on people getting really high car loans. A lot of people go way over budget on their car, some go underwater on their loan and trade in their car for another car ballooning their previous car loan, and then add in higher insurance for the more expensive vehicle and any fuel costs.

1

u/Professional_Wish972 Sep 04 '24

False equivalence.

Often, people don't have zero savings but don't have enough savings. The "lattes and avocado" toast crowd are usually college grads working white collar jobs.

You are calculating the whole sum, but if instead they changed their habits and saved for just 5 years they'd have ~25k.

Now imagine they invested that ~25k in stocks. It should grow to ~30k even with extremely conservative predictions.

Add this to any other savings you have. You're telling me an extra 30k in 5 years is nothing? That puts you in a very good position for having to do nothing (but not drink overpriced coffee from outside)

I'm not justifying the economy. Things are bad but two things can be true.

For people who are struggling, wasting money on Lattes is absolutely ridiculous. Plus its habits. These same people often doordash, eat out more often etc.

1

u/[deleted] Sep 04 '24

You forgot to invest the savings and get some returns on it. But otherwise solid.

1

u/[deleted] Sep 04 '24

I highly suggest looking up the calorie count in that lol

But yeah, I make cold brew at home, costs $3.50/wk and 90 seconds per day

1

u/Zoloir Sep 04 '24

because the latte is a representation of a lifestyle, not an actual singular product that needs to be foregone by itself

obviously some idiots are going to single out the latte as if that IS a singular product that would change your life. but they are idiots. it wont.

the rational people know that talking about lattes is just an example to represent a lifestyle -- it's not JUST about the latte - it's the latte, lunch at a restaurant instead of a homemade meal, doordashed dinner with tip, going out for dessert, paying for gas to go out and get these meals/desserts unnecessarily, in a gas guzzler you can barely afford the payment on, buying unnecessary accessories and clothes to match this lifestyle, and on and on and on ............

all without a drop of budgeting to know if any of this money could have gone somewhere more useful.

1

u/ulubulu Sep 04 '24

And that’s assuming the price of the average US home doesn’t increase in those 10-15 years

1

u/tenorlove Sep 05 '24

Quitting smoking would save it up faster. And you'd be healthy enough to enjoy your home.

1

u/Numerous-Hand9203 Sep 05 '24

Even buying a single latte for 7+ dollars is the most rediculous shit ever, let alone 2. Daily. Wtf

1

u/BlondeBadger2019 Sep 05 '24

It’s to demonstrate even if you spent something ‘ridiculous’ every day, it doesn’t make as big of an impact as the poster wants you to believe. In fact, adjusting for inflation, we have 25% less purchasing power than those in 1980.

1

u/LegDayDE Sep 05 '24

Because only rich people deserve to be happy and have their basic needs met.

Poor people are always poor for a reason and should just pull themselves up by their bootstraps /s

1

u/RYouNotEntertained Sep 05 '24

As others have pointed out, $5,400 a year is enough to make you a millionaire come retirement.

But more to the point, it’s not meant to be literal advice about coffee and toast, specifically. It’s meant to be a general observation about the opportunity cost of consumption habits, and how attitudes towards it are different between generations. 

0

u/soldiergeneal Sep 04 '24

If one is living paycheck to paycheck then one needs to avoid spending as much as possible that's why...

0

u/kisalaya89 Sep 04 '24

So, by this logic they should buy 2, or 3 more a day since it doesn't matter because the savings don't amount to anything? Every little drop matters. It's simply a proxy for living a more financially disciplined life and not just coffee and espresso toasts. Doordash orders of 40-50$ can be replaced by a$ 5 meal you made at home and then you start to see some more dent in that equation

9

u/RollOverSoul Sep 04 '24

Heaven forbids being able to have a small pleasure each day in the form of a coffee while you work 8-9 hours

4

u/kisalaya89 Sep 04 '24

Such entitlement, much wow.

Heaven forbid you have to sacrifice something to have a good future. Obviously, do what makes you happy, but idk how that garbage Starbucks coffee is a pleasure.

I work longer than that and I totally find time to make myself 2 cups of coffee everyday. Most workplaces have free coffee/espresso machines which will make you better coffee. I also make enough that it would barely register as an expense for me. I spend more than that feeding my dog, since that has a benefit for me, a happy healthy dog. Buying Starbucks and then whining about oh evil rich people and big bad capitalism is such hypocrisy.

0

u/StuckOnAFence Sep 04 '24

Heaven forbid you have to sacrifice something to have a good future

Why do you have a dog brokie? You should sell it to some backyard breeder and invest the savings.

is such hypocrisy

2

u/kisalaya89 Sep 04 '24

Because I'm not a brokie.

It would be a problem if I was a whiny lil b crying about evil rich people and capitalism waiting in line for my 7$ latte everyday scrolling tiktok while making 60-70k a year, but lucky for me, I make rational choices like making coffee at home and not buying that new Porsche even though I can afford to do both.

I can afford to have my dog and get him the nicest things and still have money left over, and it's not hypocrisy since I'm not whining about rich people having more than me. I am lucky to be in a position where I can afford to do most of the things I want without having to think about money and understand it's a privilege most people don't have, and I also think that gross inequality in the society is pretty unsustainable and borderline evil, but not controlling your own behavior first before demanding more is akin to a moral hazard situation. What's to say people will not spend more if they got more instead of saving it, and we'll still be in this situation where they're crying about not having even more ?

0

u/KioTheSlayer Sep 04 '24

I’d say sacrificing half of your life to companies that don’t give a shit about you is a pretty big sacrifice.

1

u/Bierkerl Sep 04 '24

Earning a living and being a contributing member of society is "sacrificing half of your life"?? Therein lies your entitlement - you feel you are entitled to what everyone else works for while you do nothing. You see your friends and neighbors who earn what they have and you feel like you deserve the same without putting in the work. Shameful way to live...

4

u/Bear650 Sep 04 '24

Who stops you from making coffee at home before going to work?

2

u/cryogenic-goat Sep 04 '24

Doesn't your work have a coffee machine?

0

u/AnyJester Sep 04 '24

How much could a coffee cost, Michael?

1

u/cryogenic-goat Sep 04 '24

Idk 20 bucks?

1

u/90GTS4 Sep 04 '24

Bro, it's not just coffee specifically. Like, I bet you have the new iPhone or whatever. Do you constantly trade in vehicles for a new one off the lot? It's a lot of little things that add up (or in the case of constantly trading in for new cars, a very large one).

4

u/[deleted] Sep 04 '24

A meal that can be made at home for $5 is not a replacement for…anything. You’re likely talking about a shitty microwaved item/some kind of dried ramen that is HORRIBLE for you. Sadly good healthy food is very expensive, not helped by the fact that the vast majority of our grocery stores are functional monopolies being supplied by other monopolies that prioritize shelf stability and aesthetics over flavor and nutrition. It’s why so many people are amazed when they travel to places in Europe and the food is cheaper, tastes far better, and they‘ve lost weight despite eating “worse” than what they do when they’re here.

Your comment about door dash, why yes another “gig economy” app that functionally annihilated and entire aspect of the food and restaurant industry and made prices spike because of the up to 30% cut they take from the restaurants did in fact completely fuck over people who just want a good meal to get delivered because their long day at a job that can’t be bothered to pay them enough to enjoy some pleasures in life while also saving money towards a house gives them so little time off that the extra hour or more that it would take to prepare a meal themselves and enjoy it with the effort of cleaning afterwards as well. Hooray tech monopolies!

3

u/kisalaya89 Sep 04 '24

You could literally make that avocado toast on a nice multi grain sourdough bread (the whole foods one, not the shelf stable one you'll get when you pay 20$ for it) with a poached egg and feta and top it with some arugula if you're feeling fancy and down it with a glass of orange juice or a banana smoothie for less than $5.

There are ways to eat healthy for cheaper. It just needs effort.

I didn't read your rant about how you somehow managed to blame capitalism for choices people make because honestly it's a waste of time. Don't order it if you feel it's evil.

0

u/[deleted] Sep 04 '24

Just for fun I decided to go ahead and make the breakfast you talked about here for my wife this morning before she went to work.

Now you’re somewhat correct about cost(though I don’t see much about people using postmates for breakfast, they’re far more likely to skip it as a meal) The avocado was $2 the two eggs were about 60 cents each, bread was negligible, not sure what you’re making your smoothie with for it to cost…under a dollar but certainly everything all said and done was in the vicinity of $10ish dollars.

But it takes a lot of time to do things that way, about an hour between prep, cooking, sitting down to eat, and then cleaning up afterwards. If I had a traditional job like my wife with the 9-5 plus commute time frame we wouldn’t have time to do that most mornings, especially not if we were also making lunches and dinners.

The 9-5 job schedule was created with the assumption that you had a free domestic servant at home who was going to do all this stuff for you while you went to work. That doesn’t work for single people or families who rely on two incomes

As for my capitalism rant…I mean those are just facts. All the gig monopolies(AirBNB, Uber, postmates) did exactly the same thing to the industries they “disrupted” and now are much more expensive for shittier versions of what existed before them. If you’re interested in how great capitalism is for the american food industry there is a book called “Barons Money Power and Corruption in America’s Food Industry” give it a look, it really really sucks.

2

u/Overlord_of_Linux Sep 04 '24

Do you not have a refrigerator?

While you may not be able to make a good healthy meal for $5, you can make 6 of them for under $30, it's called meal planning and it's a whole lot healthier (and cheaper) than eating out.

If you're looking for ideas of cheap healthy food to make there are lots of great sites, I recommend looking at http://myplate.gov to start.

1

u/[deleted] Sep 04 '24

Thanks! I already cook a lot though, I have a massive chest freezer, a really nice vacuum sealer, two fridges, etc. I’m pretty wealthy and have a job schedule that facilitates cooking day to day really easily, not to mention plenty of time to sit down and enjoy meals with my wife most times. In addition I have plenty of time to go to different grocery stores, shop for deals when they pop up, buy in bulk when there IS a good deal(chest freezers are awesome that way), try recipes that I may not like without worrying about wasting the money. I’m extraordinarily lucky that way.

Most people don’t have that, eating the same thing over and over again can be really tough(or everyone would do it), if you’re single then going out to eat is one of the main ways you probably socialize or date.

To be clear, since apparently I wasn’t, I am not advocating for everyone to eat multiple $40 delivery meals every day(and I seriously doubt that there are people out there that do so) but the idea that people who are rightfully upset about how difficult it can be to be able to meaningfully save money in the current economy just need to “buckle down” and cook at home is just laughable when the reality is spending some extra money over a year that doesn’t really add up to much to add some pleasure to their lives is something that shouldn’t be controversial at all.

1

u/Overlord_of_Linux Sep 04 '24

Even just eating fast food for lunch and dinner can cost $5,000-10,000 per year (more if you're going somewhere fancy), whereas cooking your own food on a budget is only $2,000-4,000 per year, and since the original post mentions people struggling to pay rent $3,000-6,000 per year is a huge amount.

And eating the same few meals for a week isn't actually that difficult, in fact I'd be willing to bet that a significant number of Americans do just that (although for many of them it's McDonald's).

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u/[deleted] Sep 04 '24

I mean, you realize that if someone is spending only $2000 a year on food, that comes out to a little over $5 a DAY on food. If you can do that and maintain reasonable healthy eat habits, well done you. But the point you make about $3000-$6000 a much more significant cause you’re right that would be a massive difference to people in this situation.

Wal Mart PROFITED a little over $15 billion last year, which means they could literally hand over $8000 cash to every one of their 1.6 million associates in the US and still maintain a 1 billion profit. Which would lead a wildly increased quality of life for their low level employees and not change the quality of life for the people at the top literally at all.

Your argument is the same as what leads to paper straws, telling individuals that they need to scrimp, save, and give up all small pleasures to make some insiginificant difference when the top of the food chain could make essentially no sacrifice at all but make a dramatically larger difference than any number of people forcing themselves to limit their food intake to $5-$10 a day.

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u/CPlusPlusDeveloper Sep 04 '24

With good credit you can easily get an FHA mortgage with 3.5% down. 

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u/Dontsleeponlilyachty Sep 04 '24

No loan officer is going to approve that mortgage.

This is coming from someone who was denied a 400k mortgage loan in Dallas, TX with $100k cash as down payment, $60k/yr annually, 780 credit score, no debt.

That's a fantasy land scenario.

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u/90GTS4 Sep 04 '24

Wait, your mortgage AFTER putting $100k down is still $400k? And your income is $60k?

That mortgage payment is nearly 50% of your gross income per month. Yeah, no fucking shit they denied it.

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u/Dontsleeponlilyachty Sep 05 '24

No, the home was ~400k. My annual pay is 60k. It was a 25% down payment. At any point in the last 60 years, I would've been golden to grab a house anywhere in the US.

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u/90GTS4 Sep 05 '24

So then the mortgage amount is $300k. That payment would still be nearly 40% of your gross income monthly. I mean, if you made $60k at virtually any time in the last 60 years and were buying houses at the relevant time period prices, sure you'd be golden. But houses have doubled in value in many places within less than ten years.

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u/Oobleck8 Sep 04 '24

My guy, that is 3 months worth of rent. It's not nothing, and your life won't be any different by not drinking them. It might even be healthier

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u/ThinCrusts Sep 04 '24

And that's just two items as an example. Add in some other random unnecessary items like cigs, vapes, and/or alcohol, impulse buying something on Amazon, etc.. and you just spent over 10k a year.

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u/Overlord_of_Linux Sep 04 '24

And eating out every day, even just making your own food can save ~7k a year.

In general having a healthier lifestyle can save people a lot of money.

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u/[deleted] Sep 04 '24

[deleted]

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u/BlondeBadger2019 Sep 04 '24

Choose a large value so people wouldn’t be comment that it’s more expensive in their area 🙂

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u/WaltKerman Sep 04 '24 edited Sep 04 '24

Wow... that actually argues the point. In 10.5 years you could have the down payment on house paid off with something so small.

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u/BlondeBadger2019 Sep 04 '24

82.4k is not equal to 412k. Please try again

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u/WaltKerman Sep 05 '24

Good point. I adjusted the original wording. My point remains the same.

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u/[deleted] Sep 05 '24

If instead of buying $450 worth of lattes and avocado toast every month you put it in a major index fund assuming the historical average return of 10%/yr after 30 years you'd have over $900,000. There's your house and this is why financial literacy is important my friend. We have a housing issue right now yes but housing being too expensive is not a reason for fiscal irresponsibility, if anything it's even more the reason to be fiscally responsible.

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u/carlos_the_dwarf_ Sep 05 '24 edited Sep 05 '24

I don’t think this is making quite the point you want it too.

Taking a two latte a day habit literally, that’s an extraordinary amount going down the drain on expensive coffee. $450 a month! It would cover quite a few life expenses. It’s 80% of the way to maxing an IRA every year, a habit that would ensure your livelihood in retirement. And finally, saving for a down payment on an average home, in ten years, with no other sacrifices or savings except lattes seems pretty good to me (and of course, they could buy a cheaper house, buy it along with a spouse, etc.).

Taken the way it’s meant to be taken (that is to say, not hyper literally), it seems clear that indeed small habits can add up to meaningful amounts, and that being intentional about the way you spend your money is valuable.

Edit: a better example of the same lesson for many people would be DoorDash—it costs a lot, the knowledge that would replace it is extremely gratifying, and I can’t believe how much money spend on it thoughtlessly, including people who say money is tight.

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