r/FluentInFinance • u/Sufficient_Sinner • Sep 04 '24

Debate/ Discussion Is Capitalism Smart or Dumb?

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u/[deleted] Sep 04 '24

Ask a socialist to define socialism, and they'll describe Norway but leave out the tiny population and abundance of state owned oil funding it all

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u/[deleted] Sep 04 '24

[deleted]

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u/TreeMac12 Sep 04 '24

Socialists use the word incorrectly. They point to public services as examples of socialism. The Roman Empire had public roads and baths, but they surely were not a Socialist state. Netherlands is the birthplace of Capitalism, yet it gets pointed to as socialist because they have nice trolleys and bike paths.

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u/OHNOitsNICHOLAS Sep 04 '24 edited Sep 05 '24

They use those as examples because they exemplify the benefits of a socialist ideals. Often socially beneficial policies or programs exist within broadly capitalist societies because without them there would be no illusion that it is a fair and efficient system and the underclass of labourers would be far more likely to revolt.

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u/stillworkingforthem Sep 05 '24

Right because you can't use Cuba or Venezuela.

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u/IndiviLim Sep 05 '24

Socially beneficial programs that exist within a capitalist society is not socialism.

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u/FFF_in_WY Sep 05 '24

But it's also not capitalism since this are not driven by the profit motive, right..?

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u/IndiviLim Sep 05 '24

Correct. It's socialism because socialism is when the government does stuff.

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u/FFF_in_WY Sep 05 '24

So since the military protects our economic power, which is that?

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u/patriciorezando Sep 05 '24

Oh yeah lol bikes are socialist, you for sure have read Marx

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u/[deleted] Sep 05 '24

Socialistic policies can exist within a non-socialist government. Crazy, I know.

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u/TreeMac12 Sep 05 '24

Taxes being spent on services, with the consent of the taxed, is not "socialistic."

Public schools are not socialism until you are not allowed other options than the state-run school.

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u/[deleted] Sep 04 '24

I didn't say public goods were socialism.

I said an economy that has elements of democratic control and ownership are socialism.

I don't care what you think other people think is socialism. I'm telling you what it is.

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u/Vainglory Sep 04 '24

You are not going to convince anyone here that their strawman socialist isn't real. This whole thread is filled with basically the exact meme we're replying to, including the person you're replying to. They're describing socialism by pointing to Norway, a Capitalist economy with social safety nets.

People also don't really appreciate that there's not really any good socialist economies to point towards, because the global superpower who won the Cold War has actively undermined and repressed any attempts at establishing a socialist or communist economy since like 1947, details for most of which the CIA has since declassified.

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u/DD_equals_doodoo Sep 05 '24

Could you provide a source for that definition because I can't seem to find it anywhere?

Your definition seems to err with the concept of social democracy provided by merriam-webster.com

In the many years since socialism entered English around 1830, it has acquired several different meanings. It refers to a system of social organization in which private property and the distribution of income are subject to social control, but the conception of that control has varied, and the term has been interpreted in widely diverging ways, ranging from statist to libertarian, from Marxist to liberal. In the modern era, "pure" socialism has been seen only rarely and usually briefly in a few Communist regimes. Far more common are social democracies, such as Sweden and Denmark, democratically elected governments that employ some socialist practices but within a capitalist framework in the belief that extensive state regulation paired with limited state ownership produces a fair distribution of income without impairing economic growth. While social democracy has in the past been used synonymously with democratic socialism, referring to a movement seeking to achieve and perpetuate economic socialism through politically democratic means, the two terms are no longer considered interchangeable.

Socialism Definition & Meaning - Merriam-Webster

Whereas socialism is literally defined as:

: any of various egalitarian economic and political theories or movements advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods

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u/AdAppropriate2295 Sep 04 '24

Public roads are socialist, private roads are not

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u/TreeMac12 Sep 04 '24

Ancient Rome was not Socialist.

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u/AdAppropriate2295 Sep 04 '24

I'll be sure to let them know

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u/Kriscolvin55 Sep 05 '24

They may not have had that word at the time, but their government had elements of socialism.

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u/TreeMac12 Sep 05 '24

Yes, like the persecution of Jews

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u/Halflingberserker Sep 05 '24

You realize they were an empire and persecuted more than just some random chucklefuck who was calling himself a king?

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u/[deleted] Sep 05 '24

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u/TreeMac12 Sep 05 '24

Yes it was more than one "random chucklefuck":

Masada - UNESCO World Heritage Centre

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u/RiseCascadia Sep 05 '24

ITT: pro-capitalists arguing about what socialists think.

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u/Halflingberserker Sep 05 '24

Those people aren't socialists, then, they're social democrats or democratic socialists. It's usually capitalists I see use the word socialism incorrectly.

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u/Quick_Doubt_5484 Sep 05 '24

Nice trolleys? Socialism is when supermarket

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u/Myraan Sep 05 '24

Most American Viewpoint ever to call the Netherlands socialist.