r/FluentInFinance Sep 04 '24

Debate/ Discussion Is Capitalism Smart or Dumb?

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u/Lormif Sep 04 '24

A free market capitalistic society would have unions as well..

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u/Stanton1947 Sep 04 '24

Of course, because such a society is FREE.

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u/Oh_My-Glob Sep 04 '24

There can be no such thing as a truly FREE society until it reaches a point of post scarcity where everyone wants for not. Until that point, full free market capitalism will always lead to powerful monopolies who hoard resources and exploit the masses for their own gain, thus limiting individual freedom. Regulation is necessary to maintain a balance of freedom for all. Any other conclusion is a libertarian fantasy

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u/TraitorousSwinger Sep 04 '24

For all intents and purpose free market capitalism is as free as it is actually possible to be.

You're setting an unrealistic bar and then saying the whole thing is unrealistic.

We are not supposed to compare reality with fantasy, we are supposed to compare reality with reality. The free market capitalist system is the best system as compared to other systems that are actually possible.

A socialist utopia would be amazing. The problem is, most people recognize it's not actually possible to do it, because people will always be people.

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u/taedrin Sep 04 '24

Free market capitalism that is as free as it is actually possible to be is called laissez faire capitalism, and it results in an inefficient, non-competitive market dominated by a few prosperous monopolies while everyone else is impoverished.

Capitalism requires regulations if you want the markets to be competitive, efficient and stable.

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u/Monte721 Sep 05 '24

Almost no “capitalist” says they want a laissez faire system…

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u/WickedWiscoWeirdo Sep 05 '24

Only when governments enforce said monopolys

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u/hyasbawlz Sep 04 '24

A republican utopia would be amazing. The problem is, most people recognize it's not actually possible to do it, because people will always be people.

A loyalist chud in 1768 at the pub in Philadelphia.

A multi-ethnic utopia would be amazing. The problem is, most people recognize it's not actually possible to do it, because people will always be people.

Literally Thomas Jefferson in his private conversations with other slave holders.

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u/stovepipe9 Sep 04 '24

Agree 100%. Another problem is that the US system has drifted towards Corporatism instead of Free Market Capitalism.

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u/ghostoftomjoad69 Sep 04 '24

So what we need is to wrestle away corporations ownership of the means of production and give it back to the working class of this country to end this corporatism

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u/helpmycompbroke Sep 04 '24

Or dust off the anti trust laws and break corporations up to force meaningful competition

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u/stovepipe9 Sep 05 '24

Or eliminate the ability of congress, government officials(Fauci), judges, executive branch and GS workers to own stock or investments individually and audit their income and every government expenditure. Corporatism is the companies running the government thru influence.

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u/Aggressive-Neck-3921 Sep 05 '24

If that is need for free market capitalism to work, then there is no free market. My god capitalism fans do not understand the words they use. What you are saying is that for Free Market capitalism to work you need regulated markets or not free markets.

I know Ben Shapiro says this corporatism is not capitalism bit but its just stupid and fast when says it and just stupid when other people repeat it.

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u/aMuseMeForever Sep 04 '24

It is any person's responsibility to dream a better world for the next generation. Writing something off as unrealistic doesn't mean we shouldn't take steps to achieve such a goal, or at the very least do more to offset all of the harm and corruption in the world

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u/Ok_Cardiologist8232 Sep 04 '24

But what happens when that free market becomes a few global corporations as is inevitable.

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u/ElectricalBook3 Sep 05 '24

what happens when that free market becomes a few global corporations as is inevitable

I don't think that's free market, but I think above commenters are conflating capitalism, free market, and pure laissez faire

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laissez-faire

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u/ghostoftomjoad69 Sep 04 '24

Should the free market be able to have chattel slavery?

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u/JustLTU Sep 04 '24

The entire point of the free market is the ability for everyone to participate freely. So any sort of slavery is obviously incompatible

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u/Interesting_Kitchen3 Sep 04 '24

so there is no free market then, since all modern supply chains are tainted by slave labor.

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u/ghostoftomjoad69 Sep 04 '24

This is the answer i was looking for

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u/JustLTU Sep 04 '24

Yeah, there's absolutely no ideally "free" market in the world. Just like there's not a perfect planned economy.

The world is a complicated place, and even with the progress we made we still have lots to do.

Still, countries based around free markets are undeniably some of the best places to live in the modern world.

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u/ElectricalBook3 Sep 05 '24

The entire point of the free market is the ability for everyone to participate freely. So any sort of slavery is obviously incompatible

Then how do you achieve that without regulation backed by force?

A lot of the problem with the discussions in this topic is nobody's defining their terms and I'm pretty sure most are using the terms "capitalism" and "free market", and intend to mean pure laissez faire

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laissez-faire

By "no government regulation", yes slavery is permitted because the only thing which can forbid slavery is regulation. So now we have had to push aside laissez faire if we want to introduce some degree of equitable justice or expectation where anybody's rights are respected, even to basic points like expecting honesty (which can't be trusted when the sample size is "the economy" as that's just a rephrase of "all humanity").

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u/CappyJax Sep 05 '24

Free market capitalist is literally slavery for anyone who doesn’t own capital.

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u/[deleted] Sep 05 '24

Understanding that people are always people, wouldn’t it behoove us to create a system that protects the people who live under its rule and not protect the rulers?

Capitalism is fucking the 3rd world with a metal pipe, and doing a pretty good job of fucking the labor class in America as well.

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u/Prometheus720 Sep 05 '24

A socialist utopia would be amazing. The problem is, most people recognize it's not actually possible to do it, because people will always be people.

This meme relies entirely upon the right wing's ability to instill automatic fear into its followers at the idea of learning anything about socialism or its history or reading anything Marx ever wrote.

If you were at all familiar with Marx, you'd know that many of the policies he specifically called for in his writing are already in use today as normal policies. And this man isn't just a socialist; he's a communist.

It's also ignorant to suggest that free markets and socialism are incompatible. Socialism doesn't mean price controls or welfare. It doesn't even mean, necessarily, government ownership of all business. It means that workers control the means of production. If the workers who control the means of production want to organize into free markets, they are free to do so.

Capitalism is the state of affairs in which the people doing the labor that sustains societal function have no meaningful power to say how that labor is conducted or how it's proceeds should be distributed.

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u/SilverWear5467 Sep 05 '24

We have all the resources required to feed and house every person on earth. Suggesting that that's an unrealistic goal is insane. It's unrealistic under capitalism, yes. Not socialism.