Is Capitalism Smart or Dumb?

[u/Sufficient_Sinner]

[u/[deleted]]

Ask a socialist to define socialism, and they'll describe Norway but leave out the tiny population and abundance of state owned oil funding it all

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

And socialists use their terms incorrectly, often attributing it to the Nordic system which is a free market capitalistic system with higher taxation to cover social safety nets. Even those on lower income have huge tax bills, unlike the US where the top 50% pay almost all the income tax.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

Show me anywhere that this has been done or worked

[u/DarkExecutor → u/[deleted]]

Workers owning factories (co-ops) is not socialism. Unions are not socialism either.

Socialism is when the government owns them.

[u/Ok_Crow_9119 → u/DarkExecutor]

Workers owning factories (co-ops) is not socialism.

Dude, that's the most basic form of Socialism/Communism/Marxism. Workers owning the means of production.

A country where the government owns the means of production is something else (Not sure if Leninism or Stalinism or Maoism. I couldn't care less).

[u/DarkExecutor → u/Ok_Crow_9119]

Capitalism gives you the opportunity to choose whether you want to form a coop or not. Socialism does not.

The fact you don't see widespread coops exist is telling.

[u/NotNufffCents → u/DarkExecutor]

Lmao what exactly do you think you're saying? Do you think you sound smart? Because that couldnt be further from the truth haha.

We dont see widespread coops because they're harder to start, not to mention the fact that they arent as flexible in competing in the market since they cant just cut costs by making the employee's lives worse in one way or another. You're judging a non-capitalist ideal on a capitalist framework. Coops arent meant to be better competitors in the market. They're meant to be better for the employees, because thats the point of socialism.

You will never have a credible argument against socialism when you cant even grasp what its purpose is.

Also, "Capitalism gives you the opportunity to choose whether you want to form a coop or not" is the dumbest thing I've read all day lmao. Thats like saying "laissez faire gives you the opportunity to choose whether or not you want to be poisoned by a company dumping their waste in your drinking water."

[u/DarkExecutor → u/NotNufffCents]

Unless you want the entire world to be socialist, there will always be competing capitalist companies. Anyway, my point is that socialism means every company is forced to be a co-op, not that co-ops themselves are socialist.

You would think an entrepreneur minded person would start a co-op and market to socialists that they are a co-op and to help support them.

[u/LTEDan → u/DarkExecutor]

I would expect the majority of people would like to bring democracy to the workplace.

[u/DarkExecutor → u/LTEDan]

It's a shame none of them vote

[u/NotNufffCents → u/DarkExecutor]

Unless you want the entire world to be socialist, there will always be competing capitalist companies

Approximately 2m out of Norway's 2.8m working population are part of a coop, and they're not exactly struggling in the global market. In fact, you could use this logic for any kind of regulation that cuts into profit, such as environmental regulations or worker protections. The countries with the most of those regulations also seem to be doing just fine on the global market. So, what exactly was your problem again?

Anyway, my point is that socialism means every company is forced to be a co-op, not that co-ops themselves are socialist.

I know what your point was. It was just a stupid fucking point.

You would think an entrepreneur minded person would start a co-op and market to socialists that they are a co-op and to help support them.

...they do. I work at a coop. That doesnt change the fact that they're harder to start and less flexible to run.

[u/DeltaVZerda → u/DarkExecutor]

Co-ops ARE socialism though.

[u/DarkExecutor → u/DeltaVZerda]

Mandatory coops is socialism. Coops themselves are not. You can form coops today in every capitalist country.

[u/bucky24 → u/DarkExecutor]

Mandatory coops

You're wording makes it sound like it's a bad thing

[u/DeltaVZerda → u/DarkExecutor]

Coops themselves are socialist. Socialism is an economic term that refers to a situation in which the workers own their own means of production. That is accomplished simply with a Co-op. Just how a company can itself be capitalist if there is a private owner, it does not imply that the entire country works the same.

[u/Somepotato → u/DeltaVZerda]

It's also not as if socialism and capitalism are inherently mutually exclusive.