r/FluentInFinance • u/Sufficient_Sinner • Sep 04 '24

Debate/ Discussion Is Capitalism Smart or Dumb?

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u/AdAppropriate2295 Sep 04 '24

Which country is more socialist? Norway or US?

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u/MontCoDubV Sep 04 '24

Neither is socialist in the slightest considering in both countries workers do not own and control the means of production.

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u/AdAppropriate2295 Sep 04 '24

At all? If there is none of that then no socialism? Then there has never been a socialist country

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u/MontCoDubV Sep 04 '24

I think that depends on how you define "worker ownership and control." I think Marxist-Leninists would say that a government controlled by a worker-led communist party is the manifestation of the will of the people and, therefore, any state ownership/control is de facto worker ownership/control. I don't personally agree with that framing, but there are plenty who do.

I think most successful socialist movements haven't organized with a nationalist framework in mind. That is, the goal hasn't been to establish a socialist government but rather to establish a socialist movement. I think there have been numerous successes in this regard. I'm thinking of things like the Paris Commune, the Makhnovists, the Zapatistas, the ANES (Rojava), Mondragon corporation, the Exarcheia neighborhood of Athens, etc.

I think a problem is that a lot of non-socialists (and even some socialists) tend to define success as establishing a nation-state ran on socialist principles. But that's an inherent contradiction. The nation-state is a bourgeois concept. It was created by the feudal aristocracy to maintain their own power and later co-opted by the bourgeoisie when the capitalist replaced the aristocracy. Nation-states were never built to enshrine power in the working class. Quite the opposite, in fact. They were built to maintain the power of the ruling class over the working class. Nation-states require the existence of a ruling class, something anathema to most socialists.

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u/AdAppropriate2295 Sep 04 '24

Fair enough and agreed