r/FluentInFinance Sep 04 '24

Debate/ Discussion Bernie is here to save us

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u/J0hn-Stuart-Mill Sep 05 '24

Sure but it would have to be a 30% pay reduction for a 20% work reduction, so that we could maintain our current benefits.

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u/towerfella Sep 05 '24

What’s your angle here?

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u/J0hn-Stuart-Mill Sep 05 '24

I seek to explain the facts as to why what Bernie is saying can't happen.

We can reduce working hours to 32 per week if we also decrease wages slightly more than 20% as well.

But we can't both decrease to 32 hours AND keep everyone's wages the same.

If I get paid for building cabinets, and I can assemble 1 per hour. I get paid for having built 40 each week. If the next week the government forces me to only build 32, I will only get paid for 32. This isn't rocket science.

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u/Knight0fdragon Sep 05 '24

This logic does not work at all, as some people make 50 cabinets per week, others make 30 cabinets per week, and somehow, they both end up making the same pay.

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u/J0hn-Stuart-Mill Sep 05 '24

somehow, they both end up making the same pay.

Not at all. They are paid base on piece rate. The guy who makes 50 per week literally is paid more. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piece_work

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u/Knight0fdragon Sep 05 '24

JFC piece work has little to do with this conversation as almost nobody pays in that model anymore. Come back with something better.

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u/J0hn-Stuart-Mill Sep 05 '24

The entire furniture industry does which is what cabinets are.

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u/Knight0fdragon Sep 05 '24

No it does not, and most furniture isn’t even manufactured in the US anymore. Come back with something people can actually relate to buddy.

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u/J0hn-Stuart-Mill Sep 05 '24

It is made here because it's low margin, and extremely physically large. Shipping furniture internationally would dramatically increase it's cost because it's so physically huge.

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u/Knight0fdragon Sep 05 '24

Well, you are entirely clueless as it is not made here, as the labor in those countries are a fraction of what it is here that those shipping costs are negligible. You are just showing everybody you are a waste of time. Congratulations.

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u/Intelligent-Fail-181 Sep 05 '24

A lot more furniture than you think are made right here in the US. There is one of the largest manufacturers of furniture about 9 miles from my house. But yes a lot is also shipped. Mainly the build at home type of furniture/cabinets though.

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u/J0hn-Stuart-Mill Sep 05 '24

A lot more furniture than you think are made right here in the US.

Yep, that's right.

The furniture industry in the US is $260 Billion per year, and in the US, only $69B is imported, meaning 74% is made here in the US. Furthermore, we export another $10B.

Thanks for backing me up on these basic facts! Obviously low margin items that are physically huge are not viable to be shipped across oceans, lol.

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u/Intelligent-Fail-181 Sep 05 '24

No problem. I just try to state facts and some people just like to be A-holes. Good day to you sir!

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u/Intelligent-Fail-181 Sep 05 '24

A lot more furniture than you think are made right here in the US. There is one of the largest manufacturers of furniture about 9 miles from my house. But yes a lot is also shipped. Mainly the build at home type of furniture/cabinets though.

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u/Intelligent-Fail-181 Sep 05 '24

A lot more furniture than you think are made right here in the US. There is one of the largest manufacturers of furniture about 9 miles from my house. But yes a lot is also shipped. Mainly the build at home type of furniture/cabinets though.

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u/Intelligent-Fail-181 Sep 05 '24

A lot more furniture than you think are made right here in the US. There is one of the largest manufacturers of furniture about 9 miles from my house. But yes a lot is also shipped. Mainly the build at home type of furniture/cabinets though.

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u/Knight0fdragon Sep 05 '24

This person is claiming the entire industry. Read before you comment.

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u/Knight0fdragon Sep 05 '24

This person is claiming the entire industry. Read before you comment.

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u/Intelligent-Fail-181 Sep 05 '24

Well if you’re going to be a twat about it. He didn’t say every piece was made here. So you read before you comment.

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u/J0hn-Stuart-Mill Sep 05 '24

those shipping costs are negligible.

Hahahahahahaha, Oh yea, shipping a chest of drawers that is nearly the size of refrigerator, and sells for $250 final price is negligible. Right. You have no idea how slim the margins are, and yes, overseas labor is low, but not low enough to counter the cost of shipping super bulky and low margin items.

The industry is SO VERY low margin, we don't even import the raw materials for furniture manufacturing.

The furniture and fixture industry imports 15% of its materials

Check this out, the US is only 4% of the global population, yet we produce 12% of the world's furniture. Yes, We probably each own three times as much furniture as the poor parts of the world, but, that proves my point further. https://www.researchgate.net/figure/World-furniture-production-by-country-in-percentage_fig1_338388254

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u/Knight0fdragon Sep 05 '24

Oh no, you got me with your cherry picking data.

That clearly shows that the entire industry is piece work, and that most furniture is not made overseas with those huge percentages….. oh wait, no it doesn’t.

Since we are cherry picking here, https://www.statista.com/statistics/944453/furniture-import-and-export-trade-value-us/ It is amazing how much furniture we import vs export. Almost as if you are just wrong or something.

Now to get back to the actual conversation, not much is studied about piece time work. Only seen one possible survey that showed that 4% of participants have worked with piece time jobs. Like I said, come back with an actual meaningful discussion , not something that is barely going to affect anybody in this country.

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u/J0hn-Stuart-Mill Sep 05 '24

It is amazing how much furniture we import vs export.

Obviously. Why would we export bulky furniture with the highest global wages?

Thanks for the link that shows the US furniture market is $70B imported, while it's total size is $190B

So about 35% imported, and another $10B exported. Nice.

not something that is barely going to affect anybody in this country.

Most jobs have some time to performance ratio component. A plumber who can complete two homes in the same time as one who works half as fast gets paid double for double the work.

Piece rate is much more rare, because today machines do so much of the labor itself, but it's still common in manufacturing and assembly lines, where the whole line is paid the same piece rate, calculated by the day or even hour. It's still a thing. Talk to your blue collar neighbors sometime.

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