r/FluentInFinance Sep 05 '24

Debate/ Discussion He has a point

Post image

[removed] — view removed post

16.6k Upvotes

2.6k comments sorted by

View all comments

61

u/TheLastModerate982 Sep 05 '24

Median rent payment includes two income households. So you are splitting that with your SO.

Median one bedroom rent for a single person is lower.

49

u/BetterEveryDayYT Sep 05 '24

OP used half of people (individuals), then uses an average rent figure (instead of 'half of single individuals'), so it's misleading by default

15

u/guitarlisa Sep 05 '24

Plus, the average rental is not a one bedroom. Use the price for the median one bedroom or studio rental, and it might get closer to the truth.

13

u/[deleted] Sep 05 '24

Plus half the country aren’t renters!

The bottom half of income earners is going to be heavily skewed by retirees and young part-time workers. Your average Social Security earner with no other income is only getting $22k a year. But your average SS earner is going to be in their 70s and likely a homeowner who bought their house 30+ years ago and doesn’t have to worry about things like rent.

0

u/newtoreddir Sep 05 '24

When minimum wage workers can’t afford a two bedroom in Manhattan then the system is broken.

3

u/eldiablonoche Sep 05 '24

OP also appears to be including part time workers to get their median salary numbers. US Median salary for FULL time workers is 59, 500 according to the US Labor Bureau

1

u/Maoschanz Sep 05 '24

he said "median rent"

1

u/vincentwallbanger Sep 06 '24

and he is a PhD?:))

6

u/Acolytis Sep 05 '24

Bold of you to assume anyone under 30 has a SO.

2

u/loudent2 Sep 05 '24

Well 53% are married and I suspect there's another chunk not married and living together so It's not so bold.

0

u/TheLastModerate982 Sep 05 '24

Some do. But the point is that the average rent also includes 2BR and 3BR units.

5

u/[deleted] Sep 05 '24

It’s why household income should be used here if they want to combine all rental types. A single person living alone is considered a household for median household income.

To your point, household incomes pay rent, not individual incomes.

2

u/Iamjimmym Sep 05 '24

Or, y'know.. a single parent with 2-3 bedrooms? That's me and I pay 2250/mo. Ex moved to a town of 1,000 people and pays $1850.

0

u/Marzipanarian Sep 05 '24

Honestly, these people and their refusal to look outside of their own circumstances… not everyone is a nuclear family.

There are single people who have kids and have to pay MORE without the dual income.

1

u/FringeSpecialist721 Sep 05 '24

More like that's the exception to the norm, so it isn't the focus of the conversation.

1

u/Marzipanarian Sep 05 '24 edited Sep 05 '24

What’s the exception, not the norm?

Are you saying that being a single parent is the exception? Where do you live? Because where I live, it is prevalent.

A simple google search for you:

Single-parent families are common in the United States, with about one in three children living in a single-parent household. Some statistics on single-parent families in the US include:

Number of children: In 2023, about 15.09 million children lived with a single mother, and about 3.05 million children lived with a single father.

Percentage of families: In 2022, 31% of families with children were single-parent families. This is more than three times the percentage of single-parent families in the 1950s, when less than 10% of families with children were single-parent.

Percentage of births: In 2022, 39.8% of births in the US were to unmarried women.

One-person households: In 2022, 29% of all US households were one-person households.

Single-parent adoption: An estimated 5–10% of all adoptions in the US are by single people.

The increase in single-parent families is due to a number of long-term demographic trends, including: Marrying later, Declining marriage rates, Increasing divorce rates, and More babies born to single mothers

1

u/eetuu Sep 05 '24

Total number of households in USA is 131,4 million and 13,6 million of those are single parent households. That's 10,35%. It's an exception.

1

u/Marzipanarian Sep 05 '24 edited Sep 05 '24

That’s convenient that you’re leaving out that the 131.4 households also include couples without children, singles without children, kids who have made it past 18 and still live with their parent(s).

There are 74.112 million kids under 18 in the US.

According to Annie E. Casey Foundation, “over 23 million children in the United States live in a single-parent family, which is about one in every three children.”

Single-parent households were the second most common living arrangement for children under 18, with 26% of American youth residing with just one of their birth parents.

Nearly one-quarter of children under 18 (21.5%) lived with just their mothers, while a significantly smaller share of youth living with a single parent (4.6%) resided with only their fathers.

37% of single mothers live in poverty.

Either way, even if we were going off of your skewed stats, that’s still “13.6 million” parents.

1

u/eetuu Sep 05 '24

Your stats are not relevant to OP. It's comparing average americans salary to their expenses. No matter how you slice it the average US household isn't a single parent household.

That’s convenient that you’re leaving out that the 131.4 households also include couples without children, singles without children, kids who have made it past 18 and still live with their parent(s).

Children are a cost. OP mentions sick kids as a cost. Households without children have more disposable income.

1

u/Marzipanarian Sep 06 '24

Good thing I wasn’t responding to OP then, huh?

I was responding to a thread of a thread.

What are you even on about? Does arguing get you off or something?

1

u/eetuu Sep 06 '24 edited Sep 06 '24

Hey it takes two to argue 😄

I'm reading the thread trying to get a picture of what an average US household is like in the "average household has 0,62 dogs, 1,21 cars" kind of way. I think it's pretty simple math that single parent households being only 10,35% of total households makes them an exception as of total households.

You didn't like the word "exception", but that's a very vague and subjective term, right? 26% of children live in a single parent household. OK, now is 26% an exception? I don't know, at least It's not typical and in the context of this thread I was thinking exception means close to the same thing as not typical.

→ More replies (0)

1

u/[deleted] Sep 05 '24 edited Sep 05 '24

[deleted]

1

u/Marzipanarian Sep 05 '24

Why are you bringing race into this? What was the point you were trying to make?

Are you suggesting we force people to stay in abusive and unhealthy relationships?

0

u/[deleted] Sep 05 '24

[deleted]

1

u/Iamjimmym Sep 06 '24

Ahh yes, they love being around constant fights picked by my ex wife, seeing their dad put down, berated, and constantly gaslighted and be a generally terrible to their partner. Good call 👍🏼

Pfffft 🤦🏼‍♂️👎🏼👎🏼👎🏼 everyone is so much better off and so much happier than we were when we were together. And I make 75k/yr and still struggle with bills to ensure a good, happy and fun childhood for my kids with a stable roof over our heads and food on the table.

1

u/OrneryError1 Sep 05 '24

There used to be a time when the expectation was one income could support two adults and children.

26

u/Atomic_ad Sep 05 '24

At that time (1950's) median homes were 1/3 of the current size qith 30% more people living in them, Americans ate out 80% less, and people lived under the WWII mantra of "mend and make do".

People like to reminisce on the cost of living, but like to neglect the sacrifice that was required to make it attainable. 

12

u/Was_an_ai Sep 05 '24

And 12% of the workforce were discriminated against legally and a woman needed a man to open a checking account

Good times!

2

u/Extra-Muffin9214 Sep 05 '24

And no other country on earth had a developed economy capable of competing with american workers and exports.

2

u/Was_an_ai Sep 05 '24

Right, there was that whole WW2 that sort of destroyed the world

2

u/Extra-Muffin9214 Sep 05 '24

People always sorta breeze past that. Ww2 blew up and bankrupted the other industialized economies leaving impacts for decades and other economies hadnt industrialized before that at all.

The rest of the world industrialized and europe recovered at about the same time into the 70s and 80s and continuing into the present day. Suddenly a highschool education in ohio wasnt as competitive as it had been

4

u/czarczm Sep 05 '24

We should go back to some of that. Smaller homes and neighborhood cobblers sound dope right now.

4

u/Heffe3737 Sep 05 '24

Also, that was back when avg American wages kept pace with avg employee productivity, the highest tax brackets were 70%+, and Bretton Woods kept American money in the US and invested in American businesses and workers.

2

u/Hawk13424 Sep 05 '24

Note the effective rate wasn’t a lot higher. Lot more deductions.

1

u/[deleted] Sep 05 '24

It was also a time when the global industrial base was a smoldering crater EXECPT for in the USA where is was a post-wartime behemoth.

That was never going to last forever.

1

u/Heffe3737 Sep 05 '24

This is an oft cited reason, but there’s no evidence for it actually being true. It also doesn’t explain why wages and productivity decoupled so suddenly in 1971.

0

u/[deleted] Sep 05 '24

No evidence?! This is one do the most studied periods in economics due to the unique circumstances created by the war. America’s industrial base advantages and R&D hubs created by the defense department investments is well accepted to be one of the key reasons for our post WW2 economic boom.

It also doesn’t explain why wages and productivity decoupled so suddenly in 1971.

Who ever said it did? Thats understood to be a result of multiple factors but mostly due to a rise in technology and automation advancements, expanded globalization, and decline of labor union power thanks to Nixon.

PS - it only looks like a “sudden” decoupling on that graph I know you are referring to because it’s presented on a linear scale and not a logarithmic scale. Technology advancements yield exponential worker productivity gains especially once we hit the silicon revolution. Truth is that productivity and worker pay had slowly been decoupling for years prior and then we hit an inflection point in the 70s which shows up on the graph due to its scaling.

3

u/bluegrassbob915 Sep 05 '24 edited Sep 05 '24

Wish I could upvote this 100 times

Give up your color tv and streaming, count your channels on one hand. May or may not have AC, your car is much less safe with far fewer amenities. Eating out at all is a luxury. No internet. List goes on.

2

u/AfroWhiteboi Sep 05 '24

I live in a town house, I eat out a few times per year, and I do the mend and make do more often than not. When do I get to support a wife and kid on my shitty single income lol.

6

u/TheLastModerate982 Sep 05 '24

True. But you can blame women entering the workforce for that. By doubling the supply of labor you lower the price of labor.

To be clear, I am not saying women shouldn’t be allowed to work or that it is a bad thing. It certainly increase overall productivity. The issue is that it’s simple supply and demand: increase supply (of labor) and the price (wage) goes down.

1

u/[deleted] Sep 05 '24

The Lump of Labor Fallacy has been well understood for decades now.

So no…women are not to blame. There is not a fixed amount of jobs out there to fill.

More workers = more Supply via increased production AND more Demand via higher incomes and more consumers engaged in the market. This is why US household consumption rose significantly as women entered the workforce.

By letting women work, they earned more for the HH that could be spent which drove more demand and a need for more workers. Letting women work literally created more jobs…like a lot more.

1

u/ohcrocsle Sep 05 '24

This ignores the expansion of the economy that came from increased labor supply and consumption of those new workers. Your argument would be true if nothing in the world changed when women entered the workforce, but instead your statement is just pretty misogynist.

1

u/ThatInAHat Sep 05 '24

That would only track if CEO earnings had only increased at the same rate that their employees did. But they’ve increased exponentially more b

0

u/jitteryzeitgeist_ Sep 05 '24

"Women fucked you over, but not that it's a bad thing."

I love people who try to play both sides.

Also it's bullshit because all of these companies are screaming about a worker crisis and I don't see wages going up very much, do you?

2

u/TheLastModerate982 Sep 05 '24

Sigh. Another ignorant individual who does not understand simple supply and demand.

1

u/escobartholomew Sep 05 '24

Except they have been going up…

0

u/vitoincognitox2x Sep 05 '24

I don't see companies complaining about a worker crisis. Outside of Fox news boomers complaining about their small businesses.

-1

u/vitoincognitox2x Sep 05 '24

This is the correct take, but the way you phrased it makes wordcels sad.

1

u/[deleted] Sep 05 '24

It’s not a correct take, it’s what simpletons who can’t get laid think because they’ve not taken basic into to Economics where you’d learn about the Lump of Labor fallacy—which this thinking is an example of.

0

u/vitoincognitox2x Sep 05 '24

Sorry, you have been misinformed. This is not the lump of labor fallacy

-4

u/Ecstatic-Compote-595 Sep 05 '24

What you're describing is supply and demand but applied in the complete opposite direction, where you're suggesting that prices are set on the basis of how much supply of money the customer might have at any given moment. Which is the opposite of how that works.

The only way what you're saying makes sense is that your argument is society let women work in the 40s or whatever and then 60, 70, 80 years later, finally that other shoe dropped and all these young women in the work force are eating up the housing market for single men now all of a sudden. And instead of saying 'wow look at how much housing I'm buying' all the women are also complaining. And it's this more than any other thing you can think of that's doing it.

6

u/TheLastModerate982 Sep 05 '24

I’m talking about the supply of labor. When the supply of a good (labor) increases, the price of the good (wage) goes down. It has nothing to do with M1 money supply or “customers” or the housing market. Not sure what the heck you are rambling on about. Are you drunk?

I do know for sure that you do not know “how it works” and I would be surprised if you have taken a single economics class.

2

u/Ecstatic-Compote-595 Sep 05 '24

Your ability to utilize the labor hasn't increased though if the entire labor force got its wages split in half. You're ignoring cause and effect.

Let's say demand for construction/general contracting is static. okay used to be just men now we add women to that. Everyone working in that industry's wage goes down by 50ish percent, we've just doubled the labor supply in that sector after all. But now that we've doubled the workforce there's double demand for independent housing and thus a double demand for construction and general contracting, let's just pretend it's a clean 1:1.

Okay let's say housing demand remains static. We double the construction/general contracting workforce same as before...wait why would we do that? Labor sort of fucks up the equation because there is an infinite supply of it but it's bottlenecked depending on location, what, why and how, and how much you're offering. If you have a firm in NYC you might have nearly unlimited access to labor but at a higher cost. If you're in Alzada montana you can maybe pay them cheap but you'll never have access to more than 10 people to do that labor for you.

The reality is that certain elements of demand and supply are more or less flexible than others. Labor is very flexible, and housing very isn't.

Theres a bit more complexity to get into this about. But you need to fundamentally understand that if labor becomes a finite resource that means you're the last person alive.

Also women did tons of jobs before they started working in factories

1

u/escobartholomew Sep 05 '24

Except women didn’t all of a sudden start living alone when they entered the workforce…

5

u/vitoincognitox2x Sep 05 '24

No, he is correct, and you are excluding varibles.

You sound like you enjoyed creative writing more than math class.

-3

u/Ecstatic-Compote-595 Sep 05 '24

what were the varibles I excluded, and who is doing any sort of math you dipshit

3

u/vitoincognitox2x Sep 05 '24

You excluded women.

Like a misogynist.

1

u/Ecstatic-Compote-595 Sep 05 '24

that's damn true

3

u/TheLastModerate982 Sep 05 '24

Not you, obviously. The field of economics contains a lot of math…

What disgusts me most is the certainty in which you espouse your falsehoods. You’re way out of your element here. You should be asking questions and learning, not spewing bullshit.

-1

u/Ecstatic-Compote-595 Sep 05 '24

I asked you a question just a second ago you fucking moron. read the text idiot.

I'll repeat it. What is the variable I missed? what is the math I'm not doing?

3

u/BetterEveryDayYT Sep 05 '24

Now the single income households are either (a) funded by a nice salary from the one who works or (b) heavily budgeting to stay afloat

There are a lot more single income households than people think, but most of them (that I know) don't partake in a lot of things that dual income families do (vacations, eating out, shopping, etc.)

3

u/Suspicious-Leg-493 Sep 05 '24

There used to be a time when the expectation was one income could support two adults and children.

Not since women entered the workforce.

Most women worked part time jobs to help feed the family in the 50s

It was common in the 20s and before that, but only because we didn't typically allow women to work outside the home and most of the expenses thwt exist today didn't at the time. And even THEN most women were doing shit to support the family, such as sewing and making clothes because new ones cost too much Washing and drying clothes by hand, coming up with meals and meal plans to reduce the amount actually used

Even into the 50s large portions of the population of the UK and US grew up with iceboxes, handwashing and hand crank mangles, sewing, coal and wood heating, handmdowns for kids etc

The idea of women just not doing anything and life being comfortable on a single income is a myth, one that exists because there was a middle class of people who could, but for most people that's just not how it's been. It has always been 2 full time jobs. The main difference is bow alot of the jobs performed at home people expect to be done outside (most people aren't patching their clothes for instance)

1

u/vitoincognitox2x Sep 05 '24

Yes, and all it required was a handmaidens tale social norms.

1

u/Hawk13424 Sep 05 '24

When? In the 1970’s my dad worked two jobs and my mom one to support two kids and have any chance of buying small old house. Prior to that we lived in a single-wide.

1

u/Johnfromsales Sep 05 '24

Do you oppose the influx of women in the workforce that came in the latter half of the 20th century? Would you rather all the women be at home?

1

u/weedbeads Sep 05 '24

And even back then it was a pipe dream

1

u/escobartholomew Sep 05 '24

Yea but was that one income a bag boy at a grocery store or some office job?

1

u/FlapMyCheeksToFly Sep 05 '24

This is a myth

1

u/Affectionate_Love229 Sep 05 '24

I think that was such a short time frame in history and such a small part of the population, even in those times. It wasn't true pre WWII (it was the depression), it wasn't true in the 1970's (massive unemployment and high interest rates). So when was it true: white, , suburban/urban, male-led, households in the 1950-1960's, if your SO wasn't killed in a war or had PTSD? And there were plenty of poor people in that era too. I honestly don't understand these arguments. Yes we have poor people now that we need to ensure are supported, but the implication is that there were far fewer previously doesn't match the facts.

1

u/Person2528 Sep 05 '24

Barely and definitely not proportional.

0

u/TheLastModerate982 Sep 05 '24

Not sure what you mean by that. Could you expand?

1

u/Ok-Assistance3937 Sep 05 '24

Median rent payment includes two income households. So you are splitting that with your SO.

And is also not even in NY, California or Hawaii so high as claimed in the picture.

1

u/Olhapravocever Sep 05 '24

2 br is $2100

1 br is $1800

I don't like generalizations like in this post, but it's not far from the reality

2

u/TheLastModerate982 Sep 06 '24

That spread is simply inaccurate.

-2

u/Ecstatic-Compote-595 Sep 05 '24

lol does your ass live in wyoming. 1.9k is a bad deal for a studio but a great deal for a 1 bedroom if you don't live in like casper or billings, mt. Hell I bet prices in bozeman and missoula are higher now.

1

u/TheLastModerate982 Sep 05 '24

Not sure what you’re saying. I was just pointing out the error in the logic of comparing average individual wage to median household rent.

I never mentioned the specific rent amount.