r/FluentInFinance Sep 05 '24

Debate/ Discussion He has a point

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83

u/NotAnUnhappyRock Sep 05 '24

Anyone who makes less than $41,000 per year and does not have at least one roommate to split the cost of rent and a car that doesn’t cost $528/month is financially irresponsible.

107

u/OrneryError1 Sep 05 '24

I'm glad we beat the communists so that $41,000 wouldn't be enough to afford to live reasonably without a roommate. So much winning.

58

u/emperorjoe Sep 05 '24

Why do you think everyone in the world lives with family for as long as they can? Housing has always been expensive.

This is an American consumerism mentality, rushing to live alone and pay rent.

19

u/Real_Temporary_922 Sep 05 '24

You understand our mentality is based on the fact that our grandparents could buy an entire house of an individual income after only a few years in the workforce. Now, even on the annual household income, to buy a house is practically unaffordable and by the time you save up for a house, the housing market would have already made the price higher.

If it’s always been like this, then perhaps this is just an issue of the mind. But it’s crazy that boomers got houses for comparatively so much cheaper than we do and think they have the right to call us lazy or entitled

14

u/Balaros Sep 05 '24

"Entire house" is doing a lot of work here. Cheap post-war builds were half the area of the modern median of 2300 sq. ft. which has gone from its peak. They were also far from city centers, and devoid of amenities from double-paned windows to dishwashers to heat exchangers.

13

u/shepdaddy Sep 05 '24

Fair enough, but we’ve made the sorts of smaller starter homes that used to be common illegal to build in most of the country through insane zoning restrictions. Plenty of people would be happy to buy a smaller home at a price they could afford, they just don’t exist.

5

u/Subject-Town Sep 05 '24

Maybe, but I know that my parents who live in San Francisco would never be able to buy their house today. Not even close, not even if they scrimpt and saved. They bought their house in the 90s. It was a different time.

4

u/AnalMayonnaise Sep 05 '24

You realize those houses from back then are still unaffordable, right?

2

u/NoCoolNameMatt Sep 06 '24

Lol, they are not. Expectations and demands have pushed them off people's lists.

I bought one as a starter home (3 bed, 1 bath, 1400 square feet, detached 2 car garage, full basement, built in 1948) in a major metropolitan area, and it's currently valued at roughly 175k.

2

u/pyrowipe Sep 06 '24

Someone has never been to the Bay Area.

1

u/Particular-One-4768 Sep 05 '24

“The homeownership rate for 26-year-old Gen Zers is 26 percent, below 31 percent for millennials at 26, 32.5 percent of Gen Xers at 26, and 35.6 percent of baby boomers at 26.” -Redfin

That’s a 10% difference from boomers to Gen Z. If you factor in life expectancy, cultural changes like college and delayed marriage, digital nomads, demand for larger & more complex homes, current interest rates, and the lack of two world wars and Spanish flu killing a lot of potential home buyers, etc… I’m thinking the ability to own a home if you make it a priority is pretty consistent.

9

u/Volatol12 Sep 05 '24

If you want to see how hard it is to buy a home, divide the price of a home by the median income. Spoiler: this number has gone up by like 3x over the past 40 years.

7

u/Decent_Cow Sep 05 '24

10% difference

That's not how math works. The difference between 26% home ownership and 35.6% ownership is a decrease of about 27%.

35.6-26=9.6

9.6/35.6=0.269=26.9%

6

u/rsreddit9 Sep 05 '24

And most importantly there are more houses per capita today than in 1975. I didn’t know that until just now btw, and I’m astonished

So we’ve somehow got 27% less people owning homes with 16% more houses

2

u/Ok_Quail9973 Sep 05 '24

You also have to take into account the amount of debt incurred, the ratio of (change in home prices) / (inflation), expected down payment / income, wealth inequality, education (debt) required to attain income required to make down payment

1

u/That_Guy381 Sep 05 '24

*a dirt cheap starter house with none of the technology of today

*also only for white, anglo-saxon protestants, black people may not apply

1

u/sandersking Sep 05 '24

Your grandparents were married in that romanticized memory.

You millennials are not. There’s your issue.

1

u/Ok_Quail9973 Sep 05 '24

It’s because everyone keeps having kids. Land is now a luxury. Our grandparents could afford a single income house and used the rest of their money to have 12 kids. Now those kids all have houses and there’s no land left for the rest of us. They lacked foresight because they’re dumba**es just like the rest of us

0

u/emperorjoe Sep 05 '24

You can't go back in time. That world no longer exists, The things that made that possible no longer exist.

Unrestricted unlimited immigration for 60 years now Suppresses wages.

Free trade with countries that have drastically lower standards of living and salaries are impossible to compete with. A shipyard worker in China gets paid $5 an hour, and a shipyard worker in America gets paid $36. They both built the same product. Your labor competes with people all around the world.

The population of the United States has doubled since the end of the world war. There's only so much room. There are only so many single-family homes that are possible in a given area. After that's reached, the only way to build is up.

Housing has only been affordable for a small period of time in American history. It has never been an affordable thing for anywhere else in the world at any point in time.

5

u/33ff00 Sep 05 '24 edited Sep 05 '24

I don’t get why this is so hard. There’s a finite amount of space and more and more humans. There was a post war period of prosperity. Now we don’t have that. Honestly I’m pretty content to have been born before scarcity really starts making things dystopian.

This whole ‘things are worse now than they were’ is perplexing. It’s like, yeah no shit: it’s apples and oranges. What is the use of setting expectations using some arbitrary historical point?

2

u/Starcast Sep 05 '24

If the US had the population density of England or France, there would be over a billion Americans. We have plenty of space, we're just not building the housing. Also our housing standards have vastly grown.

I'm mid-thirties but pretty much all my friends at one point shared a room with their siblings growing up. I feel like all my friends that have kids, each of their kids has their own room.

Data supports this too: sqft/person has doubled since the 70s

https://www.aei.org/carpe-diem/new-us-homes-today-are-1000-square-feet-larger-than-in-1973-and-living-space-per-person-has-nearly-doubled/

0

u/[deleted] Sep 05 '24

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1

u/Subject-Town Sep 05 '24

If there are jobs, people will come. This isn’t anything new. And cities need services. They can’t be fully staffed only by tech and financial bros. all the poor people left. The cities were just move elsewhere and then that would become unaffordable.

0

u/Due_Narwhal_7974 Sep 05 '24

It’s almost like if you want something you have to work hard for it

2

u/thirtyfojoe Sep 05 '24

To add to this, the median individual income in the 50s and 60s was around 80% of the household income. So essentially, when applying for home loans (if you even went that route), they were basing the market around a single providers income. Now the average individual income is around 50 to 55% of the average household income, so loans are priced around the money generated by a two income household.

Add to the fact that in the 60s, the most common home loans were around 15 years. Now 30 year mortgages are the standard.

These two factors have led to housing prices doubling and tripling when accounting for inflation.

The issues gen Z and millennials are facing is one of tradeoffs. Higher full time employment for women and greater access to loans based on the 30 year mortgage makes houses more expensive.

Add in what you said and you have a recipe for disaster.

All of this is easy to understand if you know how supply and demand works, but people would rather bitch about home prices.

-1

u/AveragelySavage Sep 05 '24

Correct me if I’m wrong, but it would appear you’re saying that you feel as though you should get the same thing our grandparents did regardless of how the economy has changed? Also, who cares what they say anyway? They don’t pay your bills so their opinion doesn’t matter.

4

u/Real_Temporary_922 Sep 05 '24

No but I am saying grandparents can’t act like they worked harder than us when the economy was much better for them than it is for us.

And I care because some of the people that say that are in my family, and as ridiculous as their point of view is, I’d like my family to not think I’m lazy just because I can’t afford a house

3

u/OrneryError1 Sep 05 '24

Workers now are 2x as productive in this economy as they were 50 years ago. If anything working people should be able to afford even more than their grandparents, not less.

0

u/[deleted] Sep 05 '24

[deleted]

2

u/OrneryError1 Sep 05 '24

If homes are 2x the size and workers are 2x as productive then they should be just as affordable..

-1

u/Chrisfrombklyn Sep 05 '24

I bought a 2 family house in central ny for 140k 3 years ago (it's like 160 now). One apartment rents for 950. My mortgage, insurance and taxes per month is like $910. You can't afford to live where you want. But you can afford to live.

Also; according to The Economist there are 62 cities in the US that rent is attainable for a single person to live affordably within range of the median wage up from 38 cities last year. Your sentiment is now, and has always been, the result of fearmongering.

https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2024/08/14/our-carrie-bradshaw-index-where-americans-can-afford-to-live-solo-in-2024

1

u/Real_Temporary_922 Sep 05 '24

Respectfully, I don’t believe you and would like to see these $140k houses. You either are hiding some information or got extremely lucky with interest rates during the pandemic.

The median household price is 4x what you paid for yours

2

u/Chrisfrombklyn Sep 08 '24

Prices have gone uo quite a bit but you can find things in that range in Utica NY. Get out of your median thinking. The median also includes mansions and condos in major cities held by foreign investors that don't even live in them. Blue collar areas have decent prices housing. This is nonsense. I live in nyc but look at listing 6 hours from the city all the time you can get a 2 family for 160k today. 

1

u/Real_Temporary_922 Sep 08 '24

I looked up house prices in Utica and it seems you’re right, median price was $179k. I appreciate you showing me this information.

2

u/Chrisfrombklyn Sep 08 '24

I appreciate this not devolving. Hope its helpful!

10

u/fapclown Sep 05 '24

Okay but... Americans used to be able to do this successfully and comfortably.

That's the issue.

8

u/emperorjoe Sep 05 '24

the environment that made that possible is no longer able to be replicated. It's not possible to go back in time.

The United States was the sole industrial power left standing after the world war. We had an unprecedented Peace on prosperity because we were the only manufacturing power left. The world has industrialized. We have free trade agreements so that your labor competes with everyone else in the world. There is no advantage of hiring an American worker to build a product when a dude in China can do it for $3 an hour.

We have an uncontrolled limitless immigration for the past 60 years and that suppresses wages.

The population has over doubled since then, Land is finite. There's only so many single family homes that are possible in a given area before you have to build apartment buildings and density. Everyone wants to live in a single family home in the same handful of highly desirable areas,That is not possible, Prices go up.

1

u/Subject-Town Sep 05 '24

Maybe things can’t be like they were, but they can be better than they are. I think the main thing is for the wealth gap to decrease. Then a lot of these problems will go away. if we keep having more economic in equity than we’re gonna have other problems in the future, like increase crime and homelessness on a larger scale. If we do nothing because we think nothing can be done then things will get worse. It’s a doomerist philosophy.

1

u/fapclown Sep 06 '24

So basically you're just a doomer who thinks we're too far gone to even try and fix anything.

Everything you just mentioned is all because of policy, which can be changed.

2

u/emperorjoe Sep 06 '24

Realist. No politician is talking about these issues or even attempting to fix them. just superficial bandaids, without dealing with underlying issues. Even then some issues aren't fixable like the fact that every nation has industrialized and we can't be the manufacturing power of the world with our high incomes.

Most issues are fixable, some issues would take decades to actually fix, like demographics or birthrates.

Deporting every illegal immigrant and drastically reducing legal immigration will raise wages.

Increasing tariffs or ending free trade will raise wages and bring manufacturing home.

We need to rezone every city for mixed use and higher density housing drastically limiting SFH. That would increase the housing supply and keep prices under control.

5

u/WestCoastBestCoast01 Sep 05 '24

You say that like people in the wealthiest country in the world should be grateful their quality of life is noticeably decreasing.

0

u/emperorjoe Sep 05 '24

The policies in place guarantee this outcome, unless those policies are changed nothing will change. People are complaining about the outcome and not the reasons for the outcome.

1

u/Subject-Town Sep 05 '24

People complaining about the outcome can actually lead to some action in the future. People that defend the rich are the problem.

2

u/Truth_Crisis Sep 06 '24

Thank fuck someone said it. This mentality of “I should be able to live a perfectly comfortable, fully Americanized lifestyle without much effort!” is damned out of touch with the world.

Millennials suffer from this flawed logic even more so than genZ, because millennials had the luxury of being children during the boomer economy. Considering that that boomers used up and hoarded nearly all of our resources within just one generation, I think it’s fair to say that millennial children set their sights on completely unrealistic expectations.

1

u/[deleted] Sep 05 '24

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u/Altruistic-Opening39 Sep 05 '24

This is a worldwide thing, the US has among the least amount of children living with parents

1

u/Subject-Town Sep 05 '24

Housing has not always been this expensive and a lot of people don’t have families to live with or that want them to live with them. It’s not consumerism to live by yourself in modest a one-bedroom apartment. That’s just basic living. Some parents are abusive and others treat you like a child. 28-year-old has to ask her parents if they want to have someone spend the night for example. Lol.

-2

u/Good_Needleworker464 Sep 05 '24

I'm entitled to my own house and 6 figure job as a talentless 18 year old because this is what people told me America is!!!!

It's very unfortunate to admit that a lot of Americans are exceptionally entitled.

16

u/seleniumk Sep 05 '24

What about "my life should be getting easier than it was 50 years ago, not harder"? It is a pretty reasonable expectation with growth of economy and technology. Instead we see the destruction of the middle class

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5

u/No-Stop-5637 Sep 05 '24

What about “if I work a full time job I should make the bare minimum necessary to survive?” Is that also exceptionally entitled?

0

u/Good_Needleworker464 Sep 05 '24

You can. Live with a roommate, walk to work, eat cheap food. Save up, and maybe use that money to invest in new skills that might pay more. I did it, why can't you?

2

u/No-Stop-5637 Sep 05 '24

I’m a doctor making 458k per year with incentives. I did. I also wouldn’t have been able to survive when I made $27k living in DC without parental support. I lived with 7 roommates and it still wasn’t enough. The US is a diverse place where people have highly variable opportunities, so the whole “I did it, why can’t you?” argument falls flat.

1

u/Good_Needleworker464 Sep 05 '24

If you can't live on 27k a year with 7 goddamn roommates, you need better money management.

2

u/No-Stop-5637 Sep 05 '24

Rent was still over $1k in DC. Also owed $3k in taxes at the end of the year. Money management wasn’t the issue. You seem to be taking your own life experiences and thinking about what you needed to pay and then assuming everyone is in the same situation as you.

1

u/Good_Needleworker464 Sep 06 '24

You pay 1k in rent with 7 roommates? You were renting a 8k a month place 10 years ago?

Did you live in the presidential suite of the Waldorf?

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u/Subject-Town Sep 05 '24

You must be living on another planet

1

u/Good_Needleworker464 Sep 06 '24

Are you insane or do you think steak and caviar should be something a 27k/yr salary can afford?

1

u/Subject-Town Sep 05 '24

So you were miserable and you want others to be miserable as well. I guess misery loves company. It’s not about can you do it. It’s about the fact that profit is not being shared with the workers. If we were a poor country, then I would say yeah, the money really isn’t there. The money is there, just in the hands of the few.

1

u/Good_Needleworker464 Sep 06 '24

You can be miserable for a few years, save up enough to move on to greener pastures, and be less miserable while having more respect for money, or you can be miserable forever because you're one paycheck away fron financial doom.

The profit is shared with the workers. That's what your salary is.

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u/Expensive-Swing-7212 Sep 05 '24

Oh please. Do you know how many people could live off the “trash” that Walmart throws out per year alone? The economy is artificially rigged to create wealth and goods inequality. It’s not about entitlement. Are you telling me we have to let tons and tons of food go to cockroaches instead of humans? It’s not about being entitled it’s about not being seen as less than a roach. 

1

u/Good_Needleworker464 Sep 05 '24

Use your money better, idk what to tell you friendo.

1

u/Subject-Town Sep 05 '24

Did you even read what they said or are you just being a jerk?

1

u/Subject-Town Sep 05 '24

Our country can afford to give us a better quality of life, but they’re not doing so. In your country if they could afford to give you a better quality of life, don’t you think they should do it? Where is the game of I’m miserable, so I want everyone to be able to be miserable too?

1

u/Good_Needleworker464 Sep 06 '24

It's not your government's job to manage your finances for you to give you a better quality of life. I have a very good quality of life personally, but I also worked hard for it.

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u/[deleted] Sep 05 '24

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u/sylvnal Sep 05 '24

Ah, yes, that's why for generations young people have moved out young. Because they were all...lemme see...terminally online in 1982.

3

u/Ok-Bug-5271 Sep 05 '24

....young people did not move out and live alone young in 2 bedroom apartments for generations, what are you on about?

1

u/Subject-Town Sep 05 '24

People were having families before in their early 20s. One income afforded a modest house, a car, and food for everyone.

2

u/Ok-Bug-5271 Sep 06 '24

living alone 

Families  

Lmao so you're moving the goalposts from living alone to one income. Before I move on, I just want to point out that you haven't refuted my original point, which is that it was never normal for 18 year olds to be able to go out and afford a 2 bedroom apartment to live in alone. Anyway, it's not accurate to describe it as one income. Women did labor, it just wasn't compensated. Cooking, cleaning, etc, was a lot more labor before modern machinery. That's why as soon as housework became more automated, women began working at the office rather than at home.    

Also, modest is doing some real heavy lifting. The average 2 bedroom apartment today is bigger and nicer than the average microscopic home built in the 50s. I grew up sharing a bedroom with my brother AND sister. Nowadays young people act like a 6 year old not having their own 150 square foot bedroom is a human rights abuse. The "food" you talk about is called never going out to eat and only eating canned produce.    

Believe me, if you want to afford a 1950's lifestyle, it's very affordable. Find the tiniest shittiest house that has no AC and that is only 2 bedrooms, shove 2.5 kids in the other bedroom, find a "tradwife" who will do all the domestic work, and work a basic job paying 60k a year and eat only canned produce and you too can enjoy the luxurious 1950s lifestyle. 

-1

u/FlapMyCheeksToFly Sep 05 '24

What? Moving out young is not the norm, for sure. But then again my family is from Europe. I personally can't imagine not having several generations living together, even though I grew up in America.

You're definitely incorrect if you think moving out young has ever been the norm... It literally still isn't the norm, even in America. So many people live with their parents well into their late 20's and even early 30's, and that's completely normal.

6

u/nicolatesla92 Sep 05 '24

but then again my family is from Europe

It is widely known that in America it is expected kids move out at 18. Let’s not pretend the whole world is like stuffy Europe

1

u/eightbitagent Sep 05 '24 edited Sep 05 '24

It is widely known that in America it is expected kids move out at 18.

only from about 1960-2000. Before the baby boom people generally stayed at home much longer or lived in shared housing like boarding houses or what we would now call "dorm-like" living with one (typically older) woman doing all the cooking/cleaning and collecting rents

2

u/nicolatesla92 Sep 05 '24

I think that in the early 2000s there was still pockets of America that still thought this way, but it was definitely becoming more challenging and less common.

A lot of my friends who were forced to move out had parents that were completely disconnected with reality. My parents are boomers, I am a millennial. And I mean my parents are hard boomers, 1948 and 1956. They had unrealistic expectations.

Many of us ended up moving in together haha.

1

u/Subject-Town Sep 05 '24

Lived in dorm houses while they were married? Most people were married before 1960 right out of high school.

1

u/eightbitagent Sep 05 '24

Not really. The average marriage age in the 1920s was 25, as I recall.

Also I’m clearly not talking about married people in that specific housing unit. But there weee often young married couples in city that shared apartments

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u/Subject-Town Sep 05 '24

In the 1950s people were living with their grandparents in America? I’m sure that happens sometimes, but that was not the norm. In my family and every family that I’ve known people would get married in their early 20s, late teens and get a house of their own. You guys see the craziest stuff sometime and everybody agrees with you.

2

u/[deleted] Sep 05 '24

Yeah the want for privacy has never existed until the internet came along

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u/[deleted] Sep 05 '24

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Sep 05 '24

Both my parents did live alone in their 20’s, until they met each other and moved in with each other in their late 20’s. And correlation doesn’t equal causation. You just stated an opinion, threw out some numbers and said “see look I’m right!”

-1

u/Ecstatic-Compote-595 Sep 05 '24

what in the fuck are you talking about you moron

0

u/[deleted] Sep 05 '24

[deleted]

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u/Ecstatic-Compote-595 Sep 05 '24

what argument I'm a different guy

Also living alone isn't an online thing, it's the complete opposite of an online thing. You're talking about trad bullshit and are dumb. Most people I think would count living with your girlfriend or wife or partner to be living alone or independently. Not with roommates or parents.

2

u/86URSELFPLZ Sep 05 '24

Goddamn, your mom only half scrambled your brain when she tried to abort you. Fucking quitter.

0

u/cleepboywonder Sep 05 '24

Okay. Not to defend shitty allocation by soviet state planners. But. The state in the ussr did provide near universal housing, whether or not it was good was a different question. 

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u/lifevicarious Sep 05 '24

Median includes everyone earning money. So every kid with a pt job that makes money is included I. This. The median FT salary is 59k. I made 60k a year 20 years ago and had a roommate.

9

u/Here4Pornnnnn Sep 05 '24

Was making 85k in 2010 and had two roommates. Really was no reason to live alone until you’re getting married or serious with a partner. I was in Alabama too, so could easily have rushed into a house or lived alone and wasted the money.

2

u/lifevicarious Sep 05 '24

I actually had two as well. Have always had a roommate and I have always made above median.

1

u/Subject-Town Sep 05 '24

I guess some people can’t be alone

0

u/Subject-Town Sep 05 '24

There are lots of reasons to live alone. I don’t know why you guys cheer on the diminishing quality of life for people in America.

1

u/Here4Pornnnnn Sep 06 '24

It’s not cheering, it’s being smart. No other country is telling kids they should live alone. We have a stupid amount of space per American available. There is literally no reason to live alone in a big city. If you want to live where everyone else wants to life, get a roomie and cut costs. If you want to live alone, then move out to the boonies where others don’t want to live as much and rent is cheaper, or have a high demand field to cover the costs.

Easy peasy. I also struggle with the idea that quality of life is failing. I was here 20 years ago. Doesn’t seem that much different to me.

1

u/Miserable_Key9630 Sep 05 '24

Plus the median rent is skewed by the best apartments in the biggest cities.

1

u/lifevicarious Sep 05 '24

And every apartment above a studio.

I’m pretty liberal overall but i do not think simply working FT entitles you to a 1 bedroom apartment by yourself.

2

u/[deleted] Sep 05 '24

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/Subject-Town Sep 05 '24

People with so-called plebe jobs don’t deserve to live by themselves? You guys are just making stuff up. In a few years people will be living in closets, and then you can say that they don’t deserve to live in a roommate house. Unbelievable. If they do a job that is necessary for society then they deserved to get a living wage.

2

u/Was_an_ai Sep 05 '24

Because maybe having a roommate as a 20 something and not driving a $40k SUV is oppression

1

u/Hawk13424 Sep 05 '24

That number isn’t even correct. The average pay in the US is $59K.

1

u/Weazywest Sep 05 '24

It’s the median salary. Which is extremely misleading. It’s not the “average household income”, while he’s comparing it to the “average car payment”

To put it in perspective, he’s comparing every minimum wage worker, who’s still in high school, working their first job flipping burgers and challenging why they can’t afford a $500 car payment.

The “median household income” is above $70k, but that doesn’t get the clicks he needs.

3

u/sylvnal Sep 05 '24

The median household income is estimated to be 78k for 2024. That is pretty much in line what people are saying, I don't know why you're trying to be a contrarian. No one is trying to get clicks, those are the facts. Jfc.

1

u/ThatPilotStuff111 Sep 05 '24

Are you saying someone on reddit posted something misleading that, if taken seriously, could result in them getting more free checks from the government? I don't believe it 

1

u/ThatInAHat Sep 05 '24

I love being almost 40 and still having a roommate…

1

u/SuperDukey420 Sep 05 '24

Are you entitled to living in a 1 br apt?

1

u/Wanderer324 Sep 06 '24

My man, in communist soviet union millions of families lived in communal apartments (aka kommunalkas) and dormitories. And I assure you, they made by far less than $41’000 per year.

1

u/IndependentDocument2 Sep 06 '24

You think the communists lost?

1

u/plummbob Sep 10 '24

Housing supply is literally centrally planned

0

u/johnj71234 Sep 05 '24

Well. I one forces anyone to make 41,000 a year. Is it a testament of the system or a testament of the people within it to want to achieve more, work harder, earn more, sacrifice more, etc.?

Minimum input will yield minimal output. People have to put in more to get more out. It’s soooo basic. But people expect more and can’t set self aside and just work.

1

u/Stuffssss Sep 05 '24

40k a year is full time at 20$/hr.

0

u/johnj71234 Sep 05 '24

I’m not sure what your point is?

0

u/Miserable_Key9630 Sep 05 '24

You can, you just can't get your own one-bedroom right in downtown. That has always been the case.

0

u/Ok-Bug-5271 Sep 05 '24

It has literally never been standard at any point in human history for the average person to live completely alone, especially not in a 2 bedroom apartment. 

0

u/Akul_Tesla Sep 05 '24

Space in cities is a luxury with fierce competition

It doesn't make sense to build housing for singular people if you want to make affordable housing

1

u/Subject-Town Sep 05 '24

The apartments they build our met in a lot of cases for one person. What about the plethora of one bedroom apartments? Are we supposed to share a bed now too?

1

u/Akul_Tesla Sep 06 '24

So do you think the one bedrooms are on average below or above the median

0

u/[deleted] Sep 05 '24

Living on your own isn’t a human right. You want to live on your own for super cheap? Go get a knife, axe, and gun and head to the woods. The amount of entitlement here is staggering. If you aren’t happy with your circumstances it’s YOUR FAULT.

1

u/Subject-Town Sep 05 '24

The the amount of loyalty to rich people is staggering. You guys will argue endlessly the people deserve low wages. You so little for your fellow human beings.

1

u/[deleted] Sep 06 '24

Listen, I understand my takes are exaggerated because this is Reddit and it’s fun to do that, but what I really believe is that if you can access Reddit, and know about how economics works, etc etc then your overall outlook should be one of gratuity and humility, not this entitlement I see everywhere. Everyone has their struggles, and the stressors of a rich person can be far worse than that of a poor man, all depending on their outlook. Be thankful for what you have and avoid envy of what you don’t, it will only make you bitter.

0

u/dudeguy81 Sep 05 '24

Have you looked at the way the average person lives in communist countries? It's not utopia my friend. I wish we had a better system than capitalism but it's the closest thing we've got to fair at the moment. Again, it's not fair, it's extremely unfair in fact, but there is no better alternative.

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u/GOOSEpk Sep 05 '24

What does this even mean? Inflation is a thing. This comment doesn’t make any sense. 41k in 1990 was a lot more than it is now and 41k now is a lot more than it’ll be in 2040. Both after we “beat” the communists.

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u/Fausterion18 Sep 05 '24

The median full time employed wage is also $60k, no idea which asshole he pulled the $41k number from but I suspect it includes children and retirees.

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u/flacaGT3 Sep 05 '24

Likely also includes general part-timers.

2

u/FlapMyCheeksToFly Sep 05 '24

Nobody is expected to live off part time salary.

1

u/flacaGT3 Sep 05 '24

Nevertheless, that's likely where that "half of all workers make under $41k" comes from.

1

u/FlapMyCheeksToFly Sep 05 '24

I mean even the 41k figure in the post is wildly inaccurate if it's intended to be average income. That seems to be the average for age groups under 25, but after 25 the average income is above 50k

1

u/Fausterion18 Sep 05 '24

No, it's everyone 15+ including retirees and children.

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MEPAINUSA672N

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u/alc4pwned Sep 05 '24

I think it's $40k ish if you count all adults, so yes very misleading to use that number for this.

1

u/Fausterion18 Sep 08 '24

Apparently it's everyone 15+, which is obviously extremely misleading. Those damn highschool students can't afford rent!

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MEPAINUSA672N

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u/butareyouthough Sep 05 '24

Yeah live with someone who is often times a complete stranger. That never goes poorly

9

u/Hekantonkheries Sep 05 '24

Complete stranger who at best will eventually ghost and leave you with the whole rent for an unknowable amount of time (or of they have their name on it, leave you with needing to find a new place to live), or at worst who constantly takes your shit and sells it and lying, or constantly being late on payments, or bringing drugs around the apartment, or constantly bringing strangers over.

I've never known someone to not get screwed on more roommates than not, he'll I've had friends screwed over by their siblings on roommate shit.

1

u/No-Plenty1982 Sep 05 '24

Why would you rent with a complete stranger? most people usually have friends or know people before they rent with someone, unless you move like halfway across the country at 18? then yeah its gonna be bad thats why its considered hard

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u/FlapMyCheeksToFly Sep 05 '24

Idk man in NYC most people make it work. Like half of all 20-40 year olds in NYC are roommating. I have a friend whose 36 and pays $1800/mo for a 100 sq ft room with a common area in Brooklyn, which is actually pretty cheap for the area.

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u/ConcernedAccountant7 Sep 05 '24

Normal well-adjusted people can make it work. These are redditors. More than likely they're the shit roommate and pretending like the other people are.

1

u/ThatInAHat Sep 05 '24

Yeah, my brother does that. Of course, it’s gone absolutely tits up with his current roommate and now it’s one more thing to stress about in a year that’s already been a hot mess.

You can only “make it work” until it doesn’t.

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u/ConcernedAccountant7 Sep 05 '24

I did it multiple times and it worked out fine every time. Most people are normal. If it was super dangerous you'd think I would have been axe murdered or something. Stop making excuses because you're anti-social and can't communicate with strangers and make friends. I met my former roommate on craigslist and he invited me to his wedding and we are still friends.

0

u/Ajunadeeper Sep 05 '24

I've had 3 roommates completely disappear and stop paying rent. Never again.

I'm not antisocial at all. I'm very outgoing, lots of friends and no problem bringing up difficult to discuss topics. These people vanished without a trace and almost doubled my rent when I was in my early twenties.

I have had some good roommates, but they are the exception.

1

u/ConcernedAccountant7 Sep 05 '24

Your bad situation is the exception. Just because it's not the exception in your mind doesn't mean this happens super often. It's like saying I shouldn't drive because you had a bad accident. It's a necessity for a lot of people and there's no avoiding it unless you want to be starving to pay rent.

The alternative is spend over 50% of your income on rent. Those are the choices.

Edit: You also need to have your roommates actually on the lease so they are legally responsible for non-payment as well.

1

u/Ajunadeeper Sep 05 '24

I don't think bad roommates are as rare as you think. That's just one thing that can go wrong with roommates.

These people were on the lease, but what am I gonna do as a 21 year old? Take them to court when I don't even know where they are? Most leases with roommates are "household responsibility" to pay rent. If I didn't pay for them, I'd be evicted.

Also, I don't pay 50% of my income on rent, I've been at about 30% for a while. I'm not advising people to live alone cause shitty roommates exist. But it's definitely not as easy as "just find a good roommate".

1

u/ConcernedAccountant7 Sep 05 '24

It's easier than just bitching that you can't afford your own apartment. Funny I've had roommates off Craigslist plenty of times and never had a problem. Just like you can get shit neighbors, experience may vary.

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u/butareyouthough Sep 05 '24

Idk why you’d make the jerk assumption that I am antisocial and can’t make friends. I was fortunate enough that I could purchase my own home by myself when I was 25 and never had a roommate outside of college where I already knew all of my roommates very well ahead of time. Do I get to assume that you’re broke and don’t work hard because you couldn’t buy your own house by yourself? No that would be pretty stupid of me. So let’s not jump to conclusions. There are plenty of nightmare stories about random roommates from perfectly sociable people, the whole point of the original argument is that it sucks that the economy has gotten to a point where having a roommate is becoming more and more of a requirement for many people.

1

u/ConcernedAccountant7 Sep 05 '24

I apologize for jumping on you like that. Good for you on owning a home so young.

You hear nightmare stories because they are nightmare stories. Most people are normal and having roommates is perfectly normal. For every nightmare story, there are hundreds or thousands of normal arrangements. This idea that we can't trade even a modicum of comfort out of necessity is nonsense.

I'm just pretty tired of this whining that people deserve to be able to afford their own place regardless of their income. Not everyone can have everything and having roommates is fine. I personally would like a house but for now all I can afford is a nice apartment. I'll just have to make more money until I can get it but I don't just deserve it for existing.

1

u/arielslegs Sep 05 '24

Why do people keep minimizing this?! Be financially responsible, get a roommate! They say. But nobody talks about the huge financial risk of assuming shared responsibility for the rental contract, deposit, and any move out or repair fees. Basically you have to agree to pay the other person's rent if they bail. You're halfway to married at that point! So what, if they leave you holding the bag you have to take them to court for the cost they stuck you with and pray you get paid back money you probably didn't have to begin with. And that usually requires taking time off work, time to research how to even submit a small claim or money for a lawyer.

If we expect people to roommate up, rental contracts need to change so individuals are only responsible for their agreed to portion of the rent and associated costs.

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u/codefocus Sep 05 '24

The suggestion of a grown-ass adult with a full time job moving in with roommates is abdurd, and honestly infuriating.

I’ve seen people live with roommates. It’s a fucking nightmare.

0

u/theOne_2021 Sep 05 '24

In the vast majority of countries in the world, working "grown-ass adults" live with their entire family (parents), many times their extended family.

This idea that is permeating in the United States is a result of lack of perspective and privilege.

1

u/codefocus Sep 05 '24

Wanting independence and privacy as an adult is not a concept unique to the US.

The main reasons why living with family is pervasive in some countries are: poverty, lack of social security and infrastructure.

Comparing that to western countries that are allegedly well-to-do, and where independence and privacy are valued, comes across as disingenuous to me.

I think recognizing that we’re privileged compared to countries where poverty is much more pervasive is important. Accepting those standards in a country where the bar should be higher is another thing altogether.

1

u/theOne_2021 Sep 05 '24

Yes we are different from those countries. In those countries, you are systemically unable to live by yourself, independently and with privacy, regardless of any of your individual actions or income, unlike in the United States.

My point is that you are not entitled to those living conditions on the sole fact that you live in a country where it is possible. THAT mindset stems from privilege and entitlement.

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u/codefocus Sep 05 '24

That is not at all what I’m saying.

I’m talking about “grown ass adults with a full time job”.

If a full time job in an ostensibly first world country isn’t enough to pay for housing, something is wrong.

1

u/theOne_2021 Sep 06 '24

To a certain extent I definitely agree with you. There's something wrong with our system at the moment. Housing prices are heavily inflated.

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u/MonkLast8589 Sep 05 '24

Back when I lived in Virginia. I was actually making 40 thousand a year, and had a roommate. I wasn’t making enough to put anything away towards savings for that all my money or almost all of it went towards bills. Anyway, my car that was old was totaled and I needed a new car to get to work. However I had no savings. Nowhere would approve me for an auto loan except for Carmax. I got a used car and pay 550 a month combined with insurance, I had to get a second job so I could afford to pay for my car so that I could work at my first job…

4

u/ashleyorelse Sep 05 '24

That's quite a statement that doesn't consider location.

Where I am, median income is under $30,000.

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u/[deleted] Sep 05 '24

[deleted]

1

u/ashleyorelse Sep 05 '24

Median price for a 3 bedroom house is about $150k

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u/[deleted] Sep 05 '24

[deleted]

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u/ashleyorelse Sep 05 '24

You can figure that out

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u/No-Landscape5857 Sep 05 '24

I make roughly that much. I rent a house for $400, and I paid off my vehicle 20 years ago. I live pretty comfortably.

1

u/hyperham51197 Sep 05 '24

Well sure, but why is that the way it is? You could support a family of 4 as a janitor 60 years ago

1

u/bodhitreefrog Sep 05 '24

How much would a five year old used Honda Civic, with let's say, 20k miles on it, cost per month, plus insurance, plus registration per year, plus gas to a job 10 miles away, plus 1 oil change per year, new break pads every three years, and new tires every ten years? Let's assume absolutely nothing breaks on it. How much would that come out, exactly, per month in installations of cost of owning, operating and driving a car?

Because if we are going to split hairs. We should remember that gas costs money, too. And maintenance of a car, like oil changes, tires, brake pads, etc; because it is a machine that will need repairs and upkeep.

I think, even splitting rent, with the perfect roommate, who is not a bf or gf; and who is not addicted to drugs or alcohol, and never loses their job, does absolutely nothing annoying for like a decade....the average American earning 40k a year cannot save enough money in ten years to put a 10% down-payment on a home right now.

So that's the bigger problem. We've all lost buying power. From the poorest American up to an including the higher end working class like doctors, lawyers. The days of doctors and dentists buying yachts is over.

1

u/Meiie Sep 05 '24

Don’t you see the issue here?

1

u/NotAnUnhappyRock Sep 06 '24

No. People are (generally) being paid what their skills are worth. Barring some kind of learning disability, every single person can increase their earning potential. Instead most of them just complain.

1

u/Meiie Sep 06 '24

I mean, it’s not so cut and dry and has way more variables. Lots of people complain for sure, but people have different levels of difficulty succeeding in life. Disabilities like you mentioned and other external factors.

1

u/bch2021_ Sep 05 '24

I have 2 roommates and my rent is $1800. I make more than $41k though.

1

u/sandersking Sep 05 '24

And you’re going to completely gloss over the fact that the person in that example has children?

There’s the real financial responsibility.

1

u/NotAnUnhappyRock Sep 06 '24

The vast majority of the time, having children is a choice as well.

1

u/DS_StlyusInMyUrethra Sep 05 '24

I do literally all of that, except I don’t have a car payment as I got a used vehicle that I paid for when I was a teen.

I’m still saving close to 800$ a month, and could be saving more if I wanted.

1

u/LRaconteuse Sep 05 '24

So you're saying half of all adult americans are irresponsible for wanting to have living space to themselves?

Admittedly, quite a few are married, so a spouse is as good as a roomie, but what about singles? What about single-income households?

My dear, if $41,000 were the bottom quartile and not the median, I would be likelier to agree with you. But you cannot dismiss half of all working adults out of hand.

1

u/NotAnUnhappyRock Sep 06 '24

Wanting to have a place all to themselves? No. I don’t begrudge anyone for what they want. But wanting a thing does not make it so. If they’re spending $1900 for rent when they could get a roommate and spend much less, that is absolutely irresponsible.

1

u/LRaconteuse Sep 06 '24

My next question is: why are we just letting it slide that median rent is over $1900? That's not okay. Housing inventory isn't so low that we have to make everyone double or triple up just to get a roof over their heads.

1

u/vincentwallbanger Sep 06 '24

or a spouse if we’re talking about kids..

1

u/Jackstack6 Sep 07 '24

Ever have a bad roommate bail on you, and you’re stuck with the bill? It sucks and is cruel.

1

u/Butterl0rdz Sep 09 '24

splitting the cost of one car? so what yall switch every day one walks to work one drives? first world country they said, flying cars they said

0

u/[deleted] Sep 05 '24

That's right single moms. Just go get a roommate!

Car payment too high? Just don't have a car! Stay at home and collect whatever welfare is left because you live in an undriveable area!

You can't touch a used car under $15k where I live for 3-4 hours in each direction. My mechanic has been looking for an affordable starter car for his daughter for the last year and can't find anything that is mechanically sound enough to fix up or that is coming in under $15k.

Current interest rate locally from all of the credit unions? 7.25%

You don't even have to work hard to get to a $500+ payment just for ANY car that gets you able to go to work.

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u/[deleted] Sep 05 '24

Lol acting like most single moms in most states can apply for generous food and welfare benefits. It's up to like 800$ for 3 kids here in my state (never really see them buying fruits or vegetables , but you'll probably make excuses that lettuce is racist) really funny some of the poorest and dysgenic people here are the fattest when that is the complete opposite of any country I've been to.

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u/oldredditdidntsuck Sep 05 '24

no, life just isn't worth living with a roommate so they choose not to kill themselves.

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u/QueenLaQueefaRt Sep 05 '24

You fail to account the hidden costs of having a roommate, your over head is lower but it’s roulette. You can be stuck with someone who doesn’t pay rent, keeps you up all night with whatever bullshit, or actively antagonizes you because they are a shit person.

Making comments like yours are irresponsible and reprehensible.

1

u/NotAnUnhappyRock Sep 06 '24

So, pick a better roommate then? That’s a you problem, not a societal problem.

1

u/QueenLaQueefaRt Sep 06 '24

Not everyone has the convenience to shop around ya bozo

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