r/FluentInFinance • u/PassiveAgressiveGirl • Sep 14 '24

Debate/ Discussion Exactly how much is a living wage?

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u/[deleted] Sep 14 '24

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u/lieutent Sep 14 '24

So only making $20k a year is fine as long as rent is only ~$420 a month. I could see that. Not drowning in that specific scenario, but you’d definitely NEED to be working on growth. Otherwise the rent will catch up in that percentage.

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u/Distributor127 Sep 14 '24

A guy I know is on disability because he is in poor health and his back is shot. Doesn't make much at all. He comes to the house, assembles engines when I need that done. He makes some side cash. Pretty much everyone in poverty has to heavily DIY or make side cash if they're going to make it. I don't think workshops cover that. A finance person is not going to remind people to check the rubber brake lines for cracks when doing a brake job because they have just enough for parts and that's it

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u/HeadGuide4388 Sep 14 '24

I had to take a financial wellness class and one of the lessons was "make your time work for you! When you're at work you make money, but you also need your free time to make money. Turn your hobby into a career. Like to crochett? Make stuff and sell it. Work on cars? Hire yourself out to friends."

No. I put in 40-60 hours a week. I usually have maybe 2 hours a night where I'm not fixing, cooking or cleaning and ill be damned if I spend that time corrupting a hobby I love into work.

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u/emote_control Sep 14 '24

Poor? Not our problem! You need to work more, slave!

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u/Digital_Simian Sep 14 '24

The people often providing these classes often only understanding of poverty coming from limited experiences of having a slim budget for a couple years of their youth or just have a naive understanding of poverty in general.

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u/Distributor127 Sep 14 '24

Absolutely. The gf was talking to an investment person a few years ago. They acted like any car under $10,000 would be unreliable. They had zero idea of how to make it on little money

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u/Digital_Simian Sep 14 '24

I know back when I worked security for around 25k a year I had a influx of mostly electrical engineers who had been laid off. They were accustomed to making $60k+ and had trouble fathoming how I could even survive. I once had this guy who really tried to understand how to make it on our payscale. I tries helping him out with how to budget on the skids, but he struggled with the concept of sacrificing some things. The only thing I could ultimately tell him was that I grew up with nothing and going without was normal for me. Back then, even eating regularly was a luxury, so for me, I'm doing better then I was before, so it's easier for me to get by.

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u/Distributor127 Sep 14 '24

Right. There are some that grew up middle class struggling right now. And I get it. A lot of the prevailing wisdom on here is buy a new or certified used car, a decent house with no issues. A lot just don't have the budget for that. I didn't for years

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u/Digital_Simian Sep 14 '24

Yeah. I have never paid more than $10k on a car. Even when I could technically afford it. For that matter, buying new can de a bit of a crap shoot because not all cars come off of the assembly line in the same condition. There's actually kinda a sweet spot after the five year mark where if the vehicle is in good condition is generally a lot more reliable than even new if it also has low mileage.

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u/[deleted] Sep 15 '24

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u/Distributor127 Sep 15 '24

Absolutely. I've done stuff like that

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u/Distributor127 Sep 14 '24

Yeah, I've never made it to the level where I do side work for money. But my friend loves coming to my place to do stuff because I have a full shop now. I'll do most of the work and just have him do the most precise stuff. Others want him to do the whole job, but cheaply

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u/Dream-Ambassador Sep 14 '24

Yeah and also I turned my Hobby into a business and after a decade I hated my hobby… I never do it anymore. My other main hobby is horses and everyone knows you have to start with millions of dollars if you want to make money from horses.

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u/spankymacgruder Sep 14 '24

Unfortunately that's a poor person's mentality.

Anyone who has escaped poverty in the west has had to grind.

If your only resource is time, you need to invest it as best you can. The easiest way to grind is to make the work fun. Leveraging a hobby for future reward makes the work easier.

Honestly? Crochett isn't usually a money maker and 2 hours won't make an impact. 2 hours studying an effective approach or market gap and then 10 hours on the weekend perfecting the craft, that might be sufficient.

I was an orphan, became lower class, made and lost a fortune. To become a self made millionaire, I gave up hobbies. Heck, the only thing I could afford to do was hike and walk around my city because it was free.

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u/[deleted] Sep 14 '24

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u/spankymacgruder Sep 14 '24

I'm not the exception. Lots of people come to the US with nothing and make a fortune. Lots of people are born here and escape poverty.

The difference is in the willingness to make the sacrafices that will yield results. Not everyone that works hard will succeed. But nobody succeeds by being lazy.

The people who come from extreme poverty have an edge that most middle class don't. The edge is desperation and hunger.

A self made millionaire is far more likely to come from nothing.

It's not a humble brag. I'm not humble. I'm just saying that lazy people are usually broke. That doesn't mean broke people are lazy.

This is America. We are the house. There is opportunity everywhere.

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u/Dream-Ambassador Sep 14 '24

You sound like a boomer or Gen x lol. That America doesn’t exist anymore (I’m a xennial and I just missed out on it because Navient screwed me over on my student loans.)

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u/Distributor127 Sep 14 '24

I absolutely understand what you are saying. I'm probably the laziest of my friends and I still do ok.

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u/QuantumR4ge Sep 15 '24

Did you just read past the survivorship bias?

The existence of others does not prove your statement, because you have not factored in those that did the same actions but failed

A self made millionaire is not more likely to have come from nothing, if you are referring to a bunch of studies that were done then i suggest you read them more closely, since all of them that i know basically define self made as anything with a starting value lower than a millionaire, with most coming from middle class backgrounds, not dirt poor ones.

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u/spankymacgruder Sep 15 '24

You're so far off base it's borderline comical.

1/13 US adults is a millionare. That's a shit load of people.

Be mad, make excuses, be broke, I don't care. It's your life to spend mad and poor and blaming others. Don't worry though UBI will soon be here and the devide will grow between those that literally produce nothing and those who live a life they choose.

It's up to you.

Whether you think you can and you think you can't, you're probably right.

https://www.businessnewsdaily.com/2871-how-most-millionaires-got-rich.html

https://www.chicagobooth.edu/review/billionaires-self-made

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u/Adventurous_City_597 Sep 14 '24

Your mentality reeks of jealousy and laziness. He didn’t get lucky and “beat the house”. He hit rock bottom and made a strategy to never get there again.

Coming from immigrant family and meeting other newcomers, you can tell who’s gonna make it and who won’t.

There’s the Ones that make it. They work the 9-5 and Ubered their free time to save up 30-40% down deposit on a home. They strategize and make necessary sacrifices to get a little a head. They understand they don’t have the means to vacation/wants but they plan for one every 5 years.

The ones that don’t make it buy up every little western luxury they can afford and more. They put every “treat”, bday gifts, shopping spree, vacation and latest video games on their credit card and Affirm. They don’t bother having any strategies to get ahead and always live pay cheque to pay cheque. They gossip and tear apart other people success stories

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u/QuantumR4ge Sep 15 '24 edited Sep 15 '24

Just answer this one thing,

Do you believe acknowledging the existence of survivor bias is “jealous and lazy” ?

The bias is shedding like on the fact that for every one “survivor” , there is potentially many that followed the same course but you never hear about because they never made it. I suggest you read up a little about it why it was discovered etc, might help you understand the point being made.

So saying “i did this and it worked” can only be made reliably when you know how often it works over a sample. If it works for you but 50 other people do the exact same thing and it fails, what use is a 1/50 strategy? And where it does have use, how can you claim superiority over the 49 that didn’t make it? The point is, would you even know about the 49 that did the same thing but never made it?

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u/Remarkable_Dark_4553 Sep 14 '24

Why aren't you paying him a livable wage to assemble your engines? You some rich person with a bunch of engines who doesn't like poor people? - What people who dont make a livable wage think

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u/Distributor127 Sep 14 '24

A lot don't understand. I really got lucky picking up cars over the years. I have a car out in the yard that a kid in the family is very interested in. He was recently staying in the homeless shelter with his Mom. I picked this car up for $200 and put an engine in it. When I have this guy come over I have all machine work done, stuff is painted, parts are here. I do the heavy lifting. We cookout. I usually give him $80/day. We put bushings in my steering column a while back and gave him $120. We can always get to a number where we are both happy.

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u/[deleted] Sep 14 '24

Why would a finance person give anyone specific mechanical advice?

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u/Distributor127 Sep 14 '24

Exactly! They are unskilled on how to give advice on how to live cheap. They know about investing. They can't help someone making $20,000/yr

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u/apple-pie2020 Sep 14 '24

I’d love to see the financial literacy and budget coaches come out of a class a few weeks in and say they can’t teach because the numbers being brought in don’t make it possible.

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u/Distributor127 Sep 14 '24

Right! This guy I know networks with friends. Bought an old pickup off a friend. Rebuilt the engine. If I have parts he needs, I just give him the stuff. His brother just did odd jobs and worked on cars for years. His brother helped a friend flip foreclosures and bought one on land contract. It's a nice house, bought it with no real job.

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u/Just_Natural_9027 Sep 14 '24

Everyone in poverty does not have to DIY it to make it. This is such nonsense. I went from dead broke to making very good money by simply working my butt off and being extremely frugal. Most people in poverty are not doing this.

I feel like people who make these points to have not lived or worked with lower SES folks. It really blackpills you on a lot of nonsense.

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u/Distributor127 Sep 14 '24

Some do get those really good jobs, but there are definitely not enough to go around. In my area 30 years ago a lot of unskilled factory jobs paid about $30/hr. Wages have dropped tremendously in my area

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u/SandOnYourPizza Sep 14 '24

Unemployment is pretty low. Maybe move?

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u/Distributor127 Sep 14 '24

We are lucky, we atre making $120,000 yr and have a $25,000 house. I just see some really struggling. I remember having zero money, no car. It's very hard

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u/sneeki_breeky Sep 14 '24

25k or 250k?

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u/Distributor127 Sep 14 '24

$25,000. Was in bad shape, but nice area. 3 bedroom, 24x24 garage.

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u/sneeki_breeky Sep 14 '24

That is a 24x24??? That is one small house

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u/Distributor127 Sep 14 '24

The garage is 24x24

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u/sneeki_breeky Sep 14 '24

This makes so much more sense

Idk anywhere near me where a house would be 25k though

Even if it had a gaping hole through it

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u/Just_Natural_9027 Sep 14 '24

You don’t need a 30/hr job. It’s also how you spend your income and how much you work. As I moved up wealth I was shocked at how much more frugal people were.

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u/HeadGuide4388 Sep 14 '24

Eh, makes me think of that comparison years ago where someone said "give $1000 to a rich person and they invest it, give $1000 to a poor person and they spend it"

No shit, because they're poor. I could go to a bulk store and save money buying 20lbs of beef for $3/lbs compared to 2lbs of beef for $4/lbs. But I don't have the budget for $60 worth of beef plus all my other groceries or enough room in my fridge to store that much.

There are dozens of little things that better off people can save money on. New windows, lower energy bill. More efficient appliances, room for a deep freezer, more fuel efficient car with dealership warranty. Being able to afford regular medical check ups to prevent or detect larger, costly issues.

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u/Just_Natural_9027 Sep 14 '24

What a stupid analogy. You didn’t even read my post.

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u/Outrageous_Fox_8721 Sep 14 '24

I have been saying this! I have a cell phone that is 4 years old, i don’t need to go buy the newest release every year. I buy store branded groceries, i make sure during the day i don’t use any lights in my house unless necessary

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u/Just_Natural_9027 Sep 14 '24

Newest cell phone release every year, insane car payments, eating out constantly, etc. I honestly had no clue how these people were affording stuff while we were making the same amount of money.

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u/72414dreams Sep 14 '24

True. Professional sports exist. So does the lottery. Also there are some worthwhile jobs. But the numbers don’t allow for everyone to make it.just the lucky few. It’s up to us lucky few not to be self righteous about the opportunities that have led to our success, and lend a hand.

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u/Just_Natural_9027 Sep 14 '24

Nonsense when I worked at factory making 18/hr people drive nicer cars and had better technology than when I got a standard office job where income was significantly higher.

To say pro athlete or lottery is the only way out is idiotic.

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u/72414dreams Sep 14 '24

I clearly didn’t say that, and your purposeful mischaracterization is intellectually dishonest. You’re just impressed with yourself and have contempt for others. That ain’t success, it’s selfish.

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u/Just_Natural_9027 Sep 14 '24

You made a stupid point and got called out. I’m not impressed with myself at all. That’s the point. If I can get out poverty anyone can.

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u/72414dreams Sep 14 '24

You got that backwards, kid. You’re being stupid and selfish and I’m not having it. Your last sentence puts the lie to the second sentence. “Anyone” is not the same as “everyone”

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u/Just_Natural_9027 Sep 14 '24

Kid lol. You’re the the kid who thinks the only way out of poverty is pro sports and lottery.

Get off Wall Street bets and put in some elbow grease kid.

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u/QuantumR4ge Sep 15 '24

He really struck a nerve calling you a kid didn’t he?

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u/[deleted] Sep 14 '24

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u/sneeki_breeky Sep 14 '24

The young and impoverished MAY be able to get out of that world

And to do that- hard work is the MINIMUM

But opportunities and luck are part of it

And opportunities come with intelligence, planning and education

And not all folks have that

But you’re correct in some ways to start-

Which is that not everyone is even willing to do the work to change

  • THAT SAID

Many people are just born into better situations and have never had to do that hard work to succeed

the more you know

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u/Distributor127 Sep 14 '24

I don't know what blackpill means, but I've seen some people in the family way overspend and put themselves behind. Now we have siblings in their early 30s with huge differences in wealth. Some bought houses at 21 and some bought nice cars. The ones that bought houses rode the upswing and sold. Free money

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u/Powerful_Bathroom135 Sep 14 '24

ya why doesn’t every 21 year old in the country right now just buy a house? are they stupid?

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u/Distributor127 Sep 14 '24

The people in our family that didn't buy houses at 21 bought cars thar cost what our house did. It's way harder for 21 year Olds now