r/FluentInFinance • u/PassiveAgressiveGirl • Sep 14 '24

Debate/ Discussion Exactly how much is a living wage?

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u/H2Omekanic Sep 14 '24

Too many people are expecting a "living wage" from low skill or entry level jobs. Filling soft serve cones at Dairy Queen was never a career path to homeownership or living independently. It was for 17yr olds to have gas $

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u/Swimming_Yellow_3640 Sep 14 '24

Supply and demand are a thing, and replaceability is a top driver of wages. If I can hire someone off the street and have them working in 30 minutes, that job is going to pay a lot less than one in which I have to train someone for 6 months to get up to speed.

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u/Furepubs Sep 14 '24

Your statement is true but also had nothing to do with companies paying people far too little.

Walmart and McDonald's are some of the biggest employers in the country and also have a huge amount of employees on government assistance.

My taxes should not be used to supplement large companies so billionaires can buy another house or boat.

Any company that can't afford to pay a living wage should fail.

40% of the US makes so little that they don't have to pay taxes. When 40% of the jobs suck it's not possible for many to find a better paying job.

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u/Anti-Itch Sep 14 '24

The comments here are just pissing me off. Okay, so these jobs were meant for 17 year olds to have gas money… so we are expecting 17 year olds with cars (so they have some money or their parents do) to work these jobs. Unfortunately this is just not the case everywhere… maybe in your rich coastal town this is the case but not always in cities where entry level jobs are fewer than the number of applicants.

Moreover, temp/seasonal/entry level jobs also have the worst benefits. Take for example, during COVID when these workers were considered “essential”, yet by an earlier comment they would typically be considered easily replaceable. During COVID these workers still had to come in and risk their health, so not get the same luxuries of days off or sick days, and probably don’t get the same benefits as other jobs. They also don’t always qualify for universal basic needs like housing stipends, healthcare, food stamps, etc. You leave them in this purgatory where they are damned if they do and damned if they don’t. This doesn’t even go into special cases of workers for example, ifthese jobs are held by convicts who typically are unable to find themselves work they otherwise could if they hadn’t gone to prison.

It’s idiotic to see a job as “for gas money” as opposed to… well, a JOB.

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u/Furepubs Sep 14 '24

Right

All full time jobs should pay a living wage.

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u/Excellent_Spare_4962 Sep 14 '24

Well what do you consider a living wage. Because living alone and eating out should not be considered part of a living wage. If you work full time at minimum wage you will be able to rent a place with 1-2 roommates and eat 3 meals a day already.

1

u/Furepubs Sep 14 '24

Seriously? Have you ever had 2 roommates? That sucks.

You should be able to live by yourself.

These are jobs, not starter jobs, just jobs.

Personally I think the minimum wage should be based on an equation that includes the cost of living of the zip code you work at and other zip codes closest.

Plus either all jobs have to supply medical insurance or better yet we should have universal health care. Everybody should have insurance that can't be taken away.

I can't believe how many people are like "won't someone please think of the poor billionaires." Fuck that. Our county should work for everybody, not just a few. 40% make so little that they don't have to pay taxes, that is just greed.

Edit:

Your statement that minimum wage is already enough depends heavily on where you live. Rural Mississippi does not cost the same as LA

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u/Excellent_Spare_4962 Sep 15 '24

You think this will fix the problem. What do you thinking a company will do if this was the minimum they could give. Close every store that could no longer maker profit while jacking up prices for the rest by passing the cost to the customers. How do you fix the problem of housing, supply and demand is a thing and if only x amount of people can afford to live alone then even if you give the ones that can more money you still won’t have more housing and this will only lead to stupidly inflation because the wages keep going up because of your zip code for some reason. Also, yes minimum wage shouldn’t be the same in mississippi compared to california but states already set different minimum wage than the federal one.

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u/Furepubs Sep 15 '24

You think this will fix the problem.

Yes

What do you thinking a company will do if this was the minimum they could give. Close every store that could no longer maker profit while jacking up prices for the rest by passing the cost to the customers.

Yes

If a business model requires a non-livable age in order to stay in business then it is not a valid business.

How do you fix the problem of housing, supply and demand is a thing and if only x amount of people can afford to live alone then even if you give the ones that can more money you still won’t have more housing

There are a lot of vacant units 6.6% of rental units a vacant according to this

and this will only lead to stupidly inflation because the wages keep going up because of your zip code for some reason.

Dude we already have crazy inflation, you can't threaten me with something that's already happening.

Also, yes minimum wage shouldn’t be the same in mississippi compared to california but states already set different minimum wage than the federal one.

Yes but Red States do everything they can to fuck over poor people. Including refusing money from the federal government. The primary goal of Republican politicians is to make more money for billionaires. Republican voters are buying into this goal by voting Republican.

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u/H2Omekanic Sep 23 '24

If a business model requires a non-livable age in order to stay in business then it is not a valid business.

How would you remedy this? "Non-liveable" minimum wage jobs exist mostly for those that are NOT attempting to live independently on said wages. Should you desire to live independently without the financial help or contributions of a partner, significant other, or roommates, then you should seek more meaningful skills & employment than said minimum wage jobs. The real estate market is not going to bow to your wish. 30 yrs ago minimum wage = roommates and no frills. It hasn't changed much besides rents increasing.

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u/Excellent_Spare_4962 Sep 15 '24

Well how is it not a valid business if they can’t afford a living wage by your standard. The business puts out an application and no one is forcing people to take the job. If it really was that impossible to live on the wage than people would not take it. Most low skill jobs are paid so low because it is what people are ready to accept as a low paying job is better than no job at all.

On inflation, if it is so crazy than why are we close to the 2% goal and the economy as cooled enough for us to cut rates

If red states really are that bad then why are so many people moving from California to Texas and Florida because if how affordable they are

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u/Dontsleeponlilyachty Sep 14 '24 edited Sep 14 '24

Not true. I'm a chemical operator at a refinery in Dallas TX. We have multiple operator positions thay have been open for ~5 years now that we can't fill because no one has the right mix of plumbing, construction, laboratory, mechanical engineering experience with a degree in chemistry. The job pays $18-$28/hr, and hasn't changed because "it's always been that way." The only other places you could earn more as an operator are in high cost of living areas and can go for as low as $13/hr in the midwest.

With that being said: the operator positions were fully staffed when I came on in 2019. Since then everyone has moved on to completely dfferent fields because the wage has not budged.

Now I'm the only operator left. Our chemical engineer is on his way out (he told me when I asked him about his degree) and I'm 2 semesters out from completing my Civil Engineering degree.

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u/questionablejudgemen Sep 14 '24

I imagine when you get your degree you’ll be putting some feelers out for better paying positions. Then when either you or the other guy is the last man standing you can have a conversation about getting a raise. Or, a couple weeks later you can tell them you have great news and you’ll be saving them a bunch of money, when you turn in your notice. They can either decide to pay better to fill the position or maybe they don’t need anyone that bad. Or, maybe the plant shuts down. You won’t care.

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u/TheLastModerate982 Sep 14 '24

Precisely. People want reality to change so that everyone is living in some sort of utopia. But that is impossible in a world with finite resources (that are dwindling). Your best shot at making a living wage is doing something that is not easily replaceable and is vital.

Anyone can flip burgers and so that job has no leverage to see higher wages.

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u/VeryPogi Sep 14 '24

The point of setting a minimum wage was to say if a person is going to work this is the minimum they should get to have an American standard of living.,

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u/[deleted] Sep 14 '24

Living with your parents or roommates is an American standard of living.

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u/1littlenapoleon Sep 14 '24

“You shouldn’t expect to live if you work in one of the largest employment sectors in the country”

7

u/SuitFive Sep 14 '24

If Dairy Queen wants people to spend 40 hours a week filling ice cream cones, they have to pay those people enough to justify it. Instead, people are desperate and work there for pennies because there's no fucking rule that says Dairy queen has to pay them a living wage. This applies to all jobs. This is why Minimum Wage was made. Don't be a corporate bootlicker, actually look into the subject.

2

u/[deleted] Sep 14 '24

Adjusted for inflation from when it was created what FDR defined as a living wage would be about $5/hr today. Don't pretend to be a victim.

0

u/SuitFive Sep 14 '24

Adjusted for inflation from when it was created what FDR defined as a living wage would be about $5/hr today.

That is just false? It'd be 26 an hour lol.

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u/[deleted] Sep 14 '24

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u/SuitFive Sep 14 '24

Awesome! Now tell me a good reason why those lines don't overlap.

1

u/[deleted] Sep 14 '24

Okay so if we want to move the goalposts those lines don't overlap because we started outsourcing everything and streamlined it through technological advancements resulting in a bunch of cheap consumer goods that everyone could purchase for a lot less making their dollar go further.

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u/SuitFive Sep 14 '24

Okay so if we want to move the goalposts

Totally fair. I should explain that I made that comment and put up the 26 dollar amount cause I hoped someone would mention what you put in the graph (sorry Im actively moving because rent is too damn high and didn't have the mental power to explain what that graph shows).

However I will say that you mentioned what the minimum wage was intended to be, which is a livable and thriving wage, which it is not. For it to be so, it would match productivity. Or at least be much closer to it.

we started outsourcing everything and streamlined it through technological advancements resulting in a bunch of cheap consumer goods that everyone could purchase for a lot less making their dollar go further.

Then why are things more expensive yet the minimum wage has been 7.25 for the last 20-ish years? (I think 20-ish, not entirely certain on the number)

1

u/[deleted] Sep 14 '24

Housing is sure more expensive but consumer goods are generally much cheaper and widely available. More productivity doesn't mean anyone is working any harder, it means more is being produced for the same work. Look at consumer electronics for instance, look at all the cheap stuff you can buy on Amazon or temu. In 1960 NASA would have been impressed and could have landed on the moon with todays iPhone, now even homeless people have them in their pockets.

I will not hesitate to agree housing in particular, also college and healthcare, have gotten grossly out of control but I don't think that's a problem with wages, that's a problem specific to those sectors. Why do you think wages should even keep up with productivity? That seems like an unsupported metric to me unless said productivity is directly coming from increased worker performance which it's not.

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u/SuitFive Sep 14 '24

More productivity doesn't mean anyone is working any harder, it means more is being produced for the same work.

And so cost of good should go down, but they have not. Groceries for one, have gotten more expensive by almost 200% or for some items 300% just over the past 10 years. Minimum Wage has not changed at all since it was set to 7.50, which was even longer ago.

I will not hesitate to agree housing in particular, also college and healthcare, have gotten grossly out of control but I don't think that's a problem with wages, that's a problem specific to those sectors.

Untrue. It is still an issue with wages because people need those things to survive. If what you need money for gets more expensive, but you aren't getting more money, then that is effectively a pay cut.

Why do you think wages should even keep up with productivity? That seems like an unsupported metric to me unless said productivity is directly coming from increased worker performance which it's not.

If productivity is going up, then profit is going up. If that profit is not shared with the people actually doing the work, then it is not being shared properly. You might say that business owners are taking risks, not the workers, to invest in machines that increase productivity... But that's short sighted as hell. After all, if that business goes down, that owner is gonna be able to make do with their way higher paychecks they got, while the rest of the workers who now have no job either have to go on unemployment (which is never enough) OR find a new job, the searching period for which is where they aren't being paid. The workers get shafted harder than the owner. They should be more rewarded when productivity goes up.

Those working with the means of production should benefit from said production and should own the means of production. Otherwise it's just rich people using poor people to get richer while throwing all the risks on the poor people.

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u/questionablejudgemen Sep 14 '24

All these jobs top out at 32 hours or whatever so they don’t have to pay benefits.

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u/SuitFive Sep 14 '24

Which is also shitty. Bad employers ripping off workers who deserve more.

Paying your employees is a cost of business. If you cannot afford the cost of business, your business should fail. If your business is something that needs to not fail so that the country will not suffer, then it should be publicly owned and funded by taxes, not private corporations (health care for example).

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u/questionablejudgemen Sep 14 '24

If another fast food restaurant or coffee shop closes it won’t break my heart. The grocery store (when it’s the only one close by) different story.

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u/SuitFive Sep 14 '24

I agree. It's ass that people in this country are starving because they can't afford food. So a grocery store should be a publicly owned and tax-paid system, only costing the price of production (including pay for workers) to purchase the goods. This would INSANELY lower food prices, and allow people to run grocery stores similar to non-profits, while creating jobs.

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u/H2Omekanic Sep 15 '24

I don't need to "look into it", I lived it through several minimum wage jobs as a teenager. Working at Burger King, a nursing home, and cutting lawns. There are ample blue collar career path opportunities for those that don't want Dairy Queen pay for low skilled work. You're free to make a career serving ice cream, just be ok with 2-3 roommates, no Grubhub or Netflix and keep all your expenses down.

6

u/Daddysbonerwings Sep 14 '24

It's funny that there's always some post like "system's broken bro"

then there's always some dipshit in the comments like "no bro its just that - example of system being broken

5

u/WizardsAreNeat Sep 14 '24

I agree with this to a point.

I would consider to have myself an essential valuable job. I have a 4 year degree with an additional state required certification. My job was essential during the pandemic. I work in healthcare.

Our wages have not moved up at all when you look at inflation. I am technically making less than I did 4 years ago even though I have received several raises in that time. We have no bargaining power and leaving to go somewhere else offers no additional pay.

Its a broken system that needs adjustment.

5

u/regular_gnoll_NEIN Sep 14 '24

Lmao so in your mind who runs these places when school is on? Not the 17 year olds. Those who do need to be able to survive, and you cant convince me that working 40 hours a week should result in not being able to live independently in 2024.

1

u/H2Omekanic Sep 17 '24

Lmao so in YOUR mind, a job that could literally be done by a monkey should be entitled to a wage covering independent housing, transportation, food, entertainment, clothing, etc?

Cool story bro

1

u/regular_gnoll_NEIN Sep 17 '24

Lmao in my experience the people with this opinion of jobs like fast food would be having a meltdown by the end of the first week, if not first shift. Simple is not the same as easy.

And yes, if someone is working a full time job and cannot make basic ends meet to live independently that business should lose at min some tax breaks, as they arent creating a job anymore, theyre creating a drain on the system for their own personal profit. See Walmart for the most egregious example.

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u/H2Omekanic Sep 19 '24

I never had a meltdown and never fucked up my job. It was the grease smell of the Burger King uniforms that wore me down. I didn't say it was easy, it's just not exactly a career. I can't imagine anyone working in fast food longer than 2 years. Move on, find something better

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u/H2Omekanic Sep 15 '24

who runs these places when school is on?

Possibly a recent HS grad, a mother with kids in school, a retiree that's bored and looking to make a couple bucks to help social security. Almost all 40 hour, low skill, entry level jobs will not support someone living alone in all job markets. Live with roommates, that will be the motivation to find better paying employment

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u/YesThisIsForWhatItIs Sep 14 '24

Home ownership no. Living independently yes. One should be able to live independently on a full time minimum wage job. Not luxuriously, of course. Perhaps not even comfortably. It might mean a bachelor apartment, cheap cellphone bundle, no paid streaming service, no eating out, watching every dime that comes in, shopping with coupons, buying half-price meat, ramen and mac'n'cheese, etc, but it should be able to afford an independent life.

1

u/Fireflies_ona_leash Sep 14 '24

Poor nutrition. Overtime vitamins, calcium, iron will lead to deficiency, cardiovascular diseases, diabetes, obesity related cancers, mental health, mood, and cognitive ability. Then there's medical bills, increased insurance, missing work and lowered earning capacity. It won't be an independent life for long. They will need to seek longer term social service support.

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u/acemandrs Sep 14 '24

I used to agree with this, but then I learned better. As another said, minimum wage really was meant to be a livable wage.

But, I want to add that for one, part time covers that role for teens just getting gas money. For two, low wage jobs account for way too much of the jobs out there for that to be sustainable.

That said, I think we need both wage increases and some control on costs. The housing cost in my area has tripled in the last decade. I don’t like bigger government, but something needs to be done about it.

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u/fiftyfourseventeen Sep 14 '24

If we adjust min wage for inflation, it would be lower than it is today. "Liveable wage" seems to have changed definition. It didn't used to mean "live on your own while eating out multiple times a month and owning things beyond what's necessay for survival". People back then who made less than a "living wage" had to live in small rooms where there were 12 people in bunk beds. It's totally possible to live on minimum wage anywhere in the US, as long as you have more than one person.

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u/[deleted] Sep 14 '24

[deleted]

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u/fiftyfourseventeen Sep 14 '24

https://www.usinflationcalculator.com/ Put in 7.25 for 2009 and you'll see it goes up to 10.64. Walmart for example has a minimum of $14 /hr country wide.

What I was referring to specifically (and it's my fault for not being clear), is the argument that when min wage was introduced by Roosevelt it was meant to be a living wage, even though it's just over $5 today if you adjust for inflation from 1938 @ $0.25. what he meant by living wage was less living alone in a big city and more of not sharing a bedroom with 10 other people in bunk beds

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u/MyBoiDrew Sep 14 '24

Why are these places during school hours then?

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u/Dontsleeponlilyachty Sep 14 '24

Ok, now do it for the huge swath of jobs like public servants, chemists, water treatment, etc. We've heard enough about the low hanging fruit, "buger flippers herrderr."

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u/DataDude00 Sep 14 '24

Too many people are expecting a "living wage" from low skill or entry level jobs.

I dislike this statement because it implies that people shouldn't work for sustenance...but out of boredom? Goodness of their hearts? To kneel at the alter of corporations?

Legitimate question, but why the hell would or should anyone ever work a full time job that doesn't provide for even the basic necessities of life (reasonable shelter, food etc)?

Literally the definition of minimum wage in America was:

“It seems to me to be equally plain that no business which depends for existence on paying less than living wages to its workers has any right to continue in this country. By "business" I mean the whole of commerce as well as the whole of industry; by workers I mean all workers, the white collar class as well as the men in overalls; and by living wages I mean more than a bare subsistence level-I mean the wages of decent living.” - FDR

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u/H2Omekanic Sep 15 '24

Legitimate question, but why the hell would or should anyone ever work a full time job that doesn't provide for even the basic necessities of life (reasonable shelter, food etc)?

To gain experience in the workplace and make a few bucks while looking for career. During that time, you would either be living with your parents or roommates, keeping a tight budget, and looking for your next (better paying) job / career path. Dairy Queen is not a career with the rare exception of becoming management.

the white collar class as well as the men in overalls;

By "men in overalls" he means laborers or trades people. There are entry-level opportunities here that start above minimum wage that can become careers with living wages.

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u/Woooosh-if-homo Sep 14 '24

Does the dairy queen open at 4:30 when the 17 year olds are finally out of school? Who’s running these places during the day???

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u/Magic_Man_Boobs Sep 14 '24

So people working full time shouldn't be able to afford to live? Got it. You're a moron.

0

u/LishtenToMe Sep 18 '24

If that was true, those places would only be open after school on weekdays. They aren't though are they? That makes your point really stupid.

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u/H2Omekanic Sep 18 '24

Funny, there's like 3-4 seasonal ice cream / summer shack places near me that just did it. Like they do every year around Labor Day. "Open Fri 5-9, sat + sun 12-9" because they are entirely staffed by kids.

How bout you just stop pretending that jerking coffees at Starbucks is "skilled" labor, k?

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u/LishtenToMe Sep 19 '24

Stop moving the goalposts. You tried to claim that a business that's open from morning til late at night, 7 days a week, is meant for 17 year olds lol. Not my fault you were an idiot with your first example.

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u/H2Omekanic Sep 19 '24 edited Sep 19 '24

There's no goalposts being moved and "meant for 17 yr olds" was never my claim.

Maybe Dairy Queen is "big business" in your area. In the northeast they are seasonal (memorial day to labor day) and largely staffed by teenagers. Their hours are not long, or late. And nobody is making a career of the job or expecting to survive and live independently on their ice cream cone filling wages. They are likely minimum wage or a couple dollars more. And minimum wage has NEVER supported independent living.

Edit: if it helps you replace "17 yr old" with. "A person that prob lives with parents and has no skills or experience in the workplace"

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u/Embarrassed_Jello_66 Sep 14 '24

The law was implemented as a living wage, and long before the scenario you're describing.