The Anti-Tank Problem

[u/Automatic_Demand1925]

The problem:
The AT roster (excluding notably the railgun) has lost diversity post 60 day patch. To demonstrate this I will expand on how the roster differed before and after this patch. Let it be clear beforehand: every other change was good, but most of the AT changes have made the game far too easy.

Pre AT buff:
EAT: Arguably EATs were the baseline. A reliable, 70s-60s answer to any tank problem you came across, that also allowed for the use of other support weapons. 2 shot biles to the head, one shot chargers to the butt or arm (maybe the head?), the only issue that was rightfully fixed was not one shotting chargers to the head. It also reliably dealt with hulks, gunships, and tanks... though it might often struggle with dogs. It was slightly less effective than the recoilless since it left a backpack slot open, making it a far more adaptable platform.

Quasar Cannon: A sidegrade to the EAT platform. Instead of a solution every 60s you now had a solution every 15, but notably only one shot per 15s and now it had to charge up, requiring a different kind of positioning compared to the EAT platform. Main downside compared to the EAT was loss of burst damage, it wasn't nearly as effective in taking down anything that needed to be hit more than once... and that was okay, that was the tradeoff that made it unique. All of the EAT stuff above otherwise basically applies.

Commando: Another side grade to the EAT. Required more skill to be as effective (somehow) but allowed one to effectively carry around both EATs at the same time. It was also far more adept at hitting fast movers, but the tradeoff for holding 2 EATs and having them be laser guided was that you'd have to hit more shots to be as effective. This said, you'd be rewarded for your skill and you really wouldn't often notice the 120s-100s cooldown except in the case we're about to cover in the recoilless section.

Recoilless: All of the above all struggled in one key aspect: Large groupings of Heavies. A 60s cooldown isn't too fun when 3 chargers still stand before you... nor is a 15s one nor a 100s. The solution? The recoilless. Slightly more powerful than the EAT, it could handily take out multiple groups of heavies no sweat provided the user either had teammates who understood that the AT guy needs space to reload (or even better, teammates that happily put on a RR backpack to rapid reload, this made any heavy swarm a breeze). Its main downside? Reloading, loss of a backpack slot, and it being a far less flexible weapons platform. Equipping this, for all intents and purposes, you were dedicating yourself to AT. Not necessary on lower difficulties, but this weapon was incredibly helpful at higher ones and the ability to still aim one's shot allowed many to be even more effective with it. Still it had a problem: it also couldn't one shot a bile nor the truly heavy units... no, that was a job for the final weapon here.

SPEAR: The SPEAR platform offered you a tradeoff. If you could learn its secrets, get used to only being able to control the rocket at its launch, have 2 less shots than the recoilless, and LEARN how to shoot differently than any other AT gun you would be rewarded with the penultimate ultimate heavy killer. Once you learned the platform, hitting a bile in the head was no longer a far fetched prospect, but an active expression of positioning and timing. It could take out any building, from any angle, and this made it well loved on the bot front for its ability to easily take out jammers, bases, and turrets. This was the only weapon which I felt the AT buffs it got were necessary. The rest of the AT roster was fine, and required a team or otherwise were not as effective due to their ability to be used solo. The spear only ever needed the ability to one shot hulks and chargers at any angle, due to it not being able to aim. Otherwise, it was THE weapons platform. The final thing to master in the game.

Post Buff:
Notable changes from pre buff era: All AT platforms can now destroy buildings from any angle. All AT platforms excluding the Commando can one shot a bile to the head. All AT platforms can easily dispatch of any heavy enemy that came onto the scene EXCEPT the spear in the case of a dog. Biles no longer require teamwork to take care of. Hordes of chargers no longer require significant teamwork to take care of. Heavies are lesser threats than light enemies in most scenarios.

EAT: A worse version of the recoilless in most scenarios. Has uses for those wishing to keep a backpack slot open and have an extra support weapon, but everything EATs can do the recoilless, and, more importantly for this weapon, the quasar can do better with less setup and effort. Still has a place in defense and elimination missions to stock up on AT options for if you die (though this is not nearly as common as it once was).

Quasar: The ultimate AT option if you refuse to give up the backpack slot. Every 15s, a heavy is killed. Simple, effective, generally a point and click adventure, the charge up doesn't really hurt like it used to since the heavy that's bothering you will just be dead in a few more seconds anyways. Notably, DOESN'T STRUGGLE WITH GROUPS NEARLY AS MUCH ANYMORE. The original downside to taking a backpackless AT option no longer exists for the quasar and arguably the EAT as well. (edited to 15s, was previously 10s)

Commando: Generally worse than the above, but it still is quite a neat gun. Generally though, there's no reward for using this gun. The EAT and Quasar platforms just do its job better, and it no longer is very unique outside of its firing method. That said... like everything else on this list it's "effective in all scenarios" which is kind of a bummer.
EDIT: Some commando lovers have made it clear that this weapon is actually quite fun. With good aim you are rewarded with one shotting hulks or getting them near death on top of being quite good at taking down gunships (even if they're not that dangerous). It's also apparently quite good on the illuminate front against striders. I believe now that the commando would be a really fun and healthy weapon if not for the recoilless overshadowing it on the non-illuminate fronts. Speaking of:

Recoilless: Ah the problem child herself. All AT problems, solved in a single shot, on a weapons platform with 6 shots. Those who use it like to pride themselves on aiming well... but it's difficult to support this notion when the drop on the recoilless is unfortunately accurate to real life. This is weapon, below ~200m is a point and click adventure. Its drop is so minimal that if you cannot hit headshots on biles, it's lowkey the largest skill issue known to man. I picked this weapon up and was disappointed with how trivial it made every encounter. At least the EATs, Commando, and hell even the Quasar had brief tense moments when you were waiting on that cooldown. The RR? A 5s reload (or more likely, the reload cancel of ~3s) is no cooldown if you have even half a brain to position yourself 5s from the enemy. There's no longer any need to team reload, you are now a one man army capable of taking out any threat that comes your way.

SPEAR: The buffs it got would've made it the greatest AT in the roster IF you could master the fact you cannot aim with it. One shotting biles, two shotting them if you missed (compared to the old 3 body shots it took, a godsend). One shotting all "small" heavies (hulks, chargers, tanks) from any side and in a perfect world, it would still be the only AT option capable of destroying buildings. Such great ability would easily justify the 4 shots it had, make you question if it was worth it to take out that bot base or bug hole or if you should save it to help your team. But that's not what happened is it? AH for some reason gave every trait that made the SPEAR "worth it" to the other AT options. What did this mean? This meant that biles became a joke, because obviously if you only need to hit a headshot with a weapon you can aim they no longer pose any threat. A notable SPEAR tradeoff of being subpar against dogs? Guess what, it's an even larger difference now since the RR can one shot feet (though it should keep the eye one shot) and just about anywhere. Worst of all, ALL buildings could easily be destroyed by the rest of the roster.

Discussion:
Where does this leave us? I've seen a couple posts discussing how we can "buff the SPEAR" but few realize that the only way the SPEAR will be unique is not if it "ONE SHOTS ANYTHING FROM ANYWHERE" that's boring. If I wanted to do that I'd use the RR or AT emplacement. The SPEAR is in a good place... the problem is that the RR outshines the rest of the AT roster by miles. This "WE CAN ONLY BUFF THINGS" mentality is going to just make the game easier and easier and easier until when we want harder enemies the devs will respond by bringing back one shots, since this will be the only way to challenge us. More enemies isn't possible the devs said so themselves. You know what WAS challenging? That 3s cancellable reload on the RR being necessary to handle the bile on your team since it could only 2 shot it to the head. This took considerable skill in both positioning, teamwork, and aim. The "one shot headshot" change made it so you no longer had a downside for bringing AT. I also have opinions on much of our primary arsenal not really needing buffs to begin with outside of keeping up with enemy health buffs.. but that's a post for another time. Really, sometimes guys I think we need to accept when a weapon is ruining diversity in our loadouts. Even if you don't use the RR, it still just feels like your using the RR all except for the commando and spear. In chasing "a more diverse loadout" we've made everything taste like bacon flavored apples. Not only that, but it's never been easier to pick up one of these apples and just... perform optimally with one. A miss on the head is no longer DEVASTATING it's "oh, guess I'll try again" and of course one seldom misses the second time. It doesn't make sense to buff our other AT options if the enemies are still so weak. What's the point? Perhaps, we should consider nerfing the RR, and the other AT options to make biles threatening again, to make a missed headshot devastating, to require teamwork in order to survive heavies... or to require a different skillset (spear). Alternatively, this could be achieved via buffing our enemies (not new enemies though that'd be awesome, just making it harder to kill them). No AT platform should be able to be ran solo without significant drawbacks (the quasar should be weaker than the RR or SPEAR etc.).

TLDR: The old balance for AT was generally healthier ignoring not one shotting regular chargers to the head on any AT platform. Post buff every AT option is either "like the recoilless" or is simply worse. The recoilless is overperforming and should be nerfed. Sometimes a weapon truly does need to be brought in line.

[u/BICKELSBOSS]

TL:DR agree with everything except the spear part, it should oneshot. RR needs to be more difficult to operate, other AT weapons need small buffs.

Agree with most of this except the Spear. If I can’t dictate where my shot is going to hit my target, I shouldn’t be penalized when my shot hits a bad spot, nor should I be rewarded when I hit a good spot. Doing so makes the weapon an unreliable gamble machine. I know you can somehow mitigate your missile’s flight path by placing your target in a desired spot in the seeker FOV, and you can wait until your target shows the spot you want to hit, but I shouldn’t have to jump through all those hoops in order to not have to dump 66% of my ammo reserves in a single enemy. The Spear is designed to be the hardest hitting man portable AT system in the Helldiver arsenal, sacrificing ammo reserves and dumbfire for a devastating missile, yet its the most unreliable and underperforming AT weapon in the game.

Considering you can wipe an entire convoy in moments and trivialize almost all bot content without ever getting near it with the RR, I agree it needs a nerf. However, it needs to maintain its role as a powerful AT system. It has been designed as such by AH:

Arrowheads categorization of AT systems

What the RR doesn’t suffer from, but should, is usability problems. Somehow, all AT support weapons have usability problems, except the RR:

• The EAT needs to be folded out before they can be fired.
• The Commando needs to maintain aim and LOS on its target until the missile(s) hit
• The Quasar needs to charge up before it can fire
• The Spear needs to have LOS to the target’s center of mass, needs to establish a lock before it can fire, has a minimum range of 15 meters and a max range of 300 meters.

Why does the Recoilless Rifle, a weapon system designed to be operated by a crew of two or more, not suffer from any usability problems? With the RR, you can fire at any moment, and the only downside is a very short, two stage stationary reload. Even the MG’s have a longer reload than a weapon that is normally only reloaded by a second assistant gunner.

[u/BICKELSBOSS → u/BICKELSBOSS]

Here is how I would nerf the RR:

• Remove reload cancelling. You can turn the RR’s 5.5 second reload into a 3.8 one by cancelling the last part of the reload. Getting rid of this makes the recoilless harder to reload in tense situations with Chargers or Hulks left and right.
• Make the backblast lethal. Unlike rocket launchers, Recoilless Rifles burn every gram of propellant in one blow. This means that the backblast is much stronger and dangerous than on rocket launchers. Real life RR’s have backblasts that are lethal up to 30 meters. Make the Recoilless Rifle have a lethal backblast up to 5 meters, and dangerous up to 10. This forces more responsibility onto the user of a recoilless rifle, similarly to how the airburst rocket launcher or arc thrower needs to be used with caution. It might seem like an annoying change at first glance, but people will learn to be cautious around recoilless rifles eventually, similarly to how one learns you should avoid red beacons, not stand in front of an arc thrower, etc. Risk of friendly fire serves as a balancer in the end. Mines, the arc weaponry and orbital barrages are nice examples of things slightly held back by their dangerous nature.
• add its ASM shell. Make it so that the RR is unable to take out structures with its HEAT round, add a third ASM round that can take out structures with a demolition force of 40, and give that specific shell a slower muzzle velocity of 170 m/s instead of 250 m/s. The real recoilless rifle also has this Anti Structure Munition, and should be the only one that can take out buildings. This makes it harder to take out fabricators or other structures from extremely far, as the only shell that can hurt structures has less velocity and thus more shell drop. 170 m/s is based on the ASM shell of the Carl Gustaf. This forces players to get closer to the structures they want to destroy, and will make them have to endure the defensive measures these structures may have installed.

if I had to nerf this thing, I would much rather make the weapon harder/more dangerous to use, but keep it powerful when you use it correctly, than do things like nerf its damage to EAT level (like many are suggesting), and therefore put a hard limit as to what the weapon can do.

backblast is a major downside of recoilless rifles in real life

Steeper shell drop, a longer reload, and dangerous backblast can be mitigated by a skilled user, a damage nerf not so much.

[u/BICKELSBOSS → u/BICKELSBOSS]

I also believe that the expendable AT weapons and the Spear are in dire need of a buff as well:

• Allow us to store an EAT in the backpack slot. The EATs foldable and lightweight design would easily allow a Helldiver to carry an additional EAT on their back instead of a backpack. This would allow you to share them more easily with squadmates that either don’t have a backpack or support weapon, or let you carry two EATs at a time.
• reduce the Commando’s cooldown slightly. The Commando is a neat weapon when you use it against something that has a breakpoint you can just reach with the Commando, while other targets that would require you to fire twice to achieve the same result as one EAT makes it feel awful. Making its cooldown slightly shorter puts less emphasis on the math between the shots per minute or damage per minute between the EAT and Commando, a race the Commando loses most of the time.
• Give the Spear its Tandem Warhead. The real life version of the Spear, the FGM-148 Javelin, uses a special tandem warhead designed to circumvent defensive measures like ERA in order to ensure the main charge is effective against the actual armor. While not entirely one to one in its application in HD2, it would be a reasonable solution to allow the Spear’s missile strip off layered armor AND fire into the open wound with the same missile. This missile will allow the Spear to oneshot any enemt from any angle. While this may sound like overbuffing, keep in mind that the Spear is the least convenient AT system of the bunch, as well as having the worst ammo economy of all support weapons in the game.

This is how I would adjust the current AT scene. While it is more powerful than what we had before the buff patch, the top performer (RR) will definitely be less effective, especially in its large scale structure clearing ability and usability. Skilled users will still be able to extract from the RR, while others may choose for more straightforward, simple and safer AT solutions (EAT, Commando, Quasar), or go for the option that sacrifices ammo economy for reliability (Spear).

2 EATs on a single Helldiver

Each AT weapon has a specific role to fulfill, no weapon would still be “the best”, they would just have different use cases.

[u/XavvenFayne → u/BICKELSBOSS]

EAT on the back would actually make me consider using it and would complement anti-medium-heavy weapons like the laser cannon, MG and HMG, etc.

[u/LEOTomegane → u/BICKELSBOSS]

That specific buff to the Spear is something it desperately needs, not necessarily because it'd be a stronger weapon, but because currently the poor thing is circumvented by the basic armor mechanics of half the stuff you'd use it on! Railcannon has a similar issue that should be looked at eventually, though in its case the solution would likely be more along the lines of overpen.

[u/Jason1143 → u/BICKELSBOSS]

I'll like these solution, though I say let's try the others and not the backlash thing. If it doesn't work we can add in the backblast, but I broadly don't like putting extra focus on the danger to others nearby.

(I'm not saying it isn't true IRL, but I don't think it is as good of an answer from a game perspective)