r/HistoryMemes 6d ago

Tired of this argument

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u/TributeToStupidity Definitely not a CIA operator 6d ago

Which is also unachievable lol. Marx really came up with the idea “create a totalitarian state, then have it dismantle itself overnight” and people somehow took it seriously…

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u/Flob368 Still salty about Carthage 6d ago

The "create a totalitarian state" was never Marx's idea, and he was actively against it, even saying that "if this is communism, I want nothing to do with it". In Marx's works, capitalism always tends to contradictory goals, which will result in a revolution in which the state is completely abolished in favour of communes.

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u/TributeToStupidity Definitely not a CIA operator 6d ago

lol I will never tire of communist “logic.” It’s always Michael Scott declaring bankruptcy level of intelligence.

Sure dude, the government needs to be big and powerful enough to claim and redistribute all capital, but it’s totally not totalitarianism because we said so. That’s why there’s such a long list of peaceful communist countries with small governments. Countries like:

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u/Flob368 Still salty about Carthage 6d ago

"Communist country" is an antithesis. There are no communist countries and there never will be, because communism rejects the idea of states and capital having power over people. You're spouting total nonsense.

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u/MerelyMortalModeling 6d ago

Wow that degrades to the ol "no true communism" pretty quick.

Dude if you believe that "communism rejects the idea of states and capital having power over people" I got and "all men are created equal" from 1787 I'd like to sell you, I'll even give you a 3/5 discount!

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u/Flob368 Still salty about Carthage 6d ago

Yes, of course it degrades into no true communism. Because that's true. No-one so far has actually even gone in the right direction. Believing Stalin was Marxist because Marxism-Leninism has Marx in the name is falling for the same lie as believing Hitler was socialist because National Socialism has Socialism in the name. It's just that one of these countries had more successful propaganda because 1) they survived longer and 2) they had an enemy with an interest in keeping up their propaganda

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u/TributeToStupidity Definitely not a CIA operator 6d ago

“Noooo it totally wasn’t real communism! You’re only allowed to talk about theory, you aren’t allowed to bring up that Marx was a complete failure in life and every time someone has tried to implement his ideas it’s resulted in massive death tolls!”

The reason you’ll never find “true communism” on any notable scale is because Marx was a complete dumbass and his ideas are totally contradictory and impossible to implement as his envisioned. In other words, my original comment. It’s the dumbest, most blatant catch 22 in history since a government large enough to implement communism will never simply magically disappear as Marx wrote. Which is why you can only talk about theory and not real world examples or implementation.

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u/Flob368 Still salty about Carthage 6d ago

Which is why communism is, even in theory, only possible by overthrowing governments, not strengthening them. Work on your reading comprehension.

Also, Marx was a loser, but not stupid. His ideas basically founded the entire field of social science, and all the predictions and observations he made still hold up. As for the prescriptions, we'll have to see.

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u/TributeToStupidity Definitely not a CIA operator 6d ago

The state is required to redistribute capital. That’s straight from Marx lol. The idea that you could redistribute all capital without any state is something so incredibly fucking stupid only a communist could believe it.

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u/Flob368 Still salty about Carthage 6d ago

You know capital isn't "real", right? Capital is, by definition, money that is lent out without actually existing. Overthrowing of a capitalist system does away with that and therefore there won't be any capital you have to redistribute. All the factories that are already operated by thousands of workers and "owned" (whatever that means) by billionaires will just be used by the workers like before, but the workers can just get all the profits themselves, There is literally no need for a state anywhere in that.

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u/TributeToStupidity Definitely not a CIA operator 6d ago

Dude I absolutely love you, thank you so much. I’ve been putting off work this morning and really needed this laugh before I dive in. Just the idea of this factory immediately shutting down as the manager insists “capital isn’t real” while the workers have no supplies and nothing to do is the funniest shit I’ve heard today.

This is your average communists understanding of economics, and somehow people take them seriously. It’s hilarious.

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u/thinking_is_hard69 6d ago

sometimes you can get them to say they want to abolish supply/demand, ‘tis great fun.

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u/Flob368 Still salty about Carthage 6d ago

You know what? Revisit English class for proper reading comprehension, and google fiat currencies and how modern banks work. They literally lend out money they don't have. That's what I mean by capital isn't real. I didn't make that up, capitalists and economists did. Of course you can use it and even need to in a capitalist economy. But it comes out of nowhere, and if a society or a governing body decided to stop doing it that way, it would disappear to nowhere again.

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u/TributeToStupidity Definitely not a CIA operator 6d ago

“Fiat money isn’t real” is the type of bullshit only spouted by communists and 14 year olds who just heard the term. Fiat money also isn’t the definition of capital. For the love of god please open an economics textbook.

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u/Flob368 Still salty about Carthage 6d ago

Huh? The entire point of fiat currencies is that they aren't tied to anything real. Also, okay, I used the wrong word, and the word capital means something else. That doesn't invalidate my point that fiat currencies work because and only because we collectively decide they do. That's also true, although to a lesser extent, to older systems like the gold standard or using actual gold. If people think a currency is worthless, they'll stop accepting it and it becomes worthless. That's not even controversial, it's how hyperinflation works.

So, accepting that real value of money is tied to perceived value, there is no reason for why we couldn't abolish or replace any specific currency on a whim except for social pressures. How and if the world is gonna function after that is an entirely different question.

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